waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[LancerVI]

As a customer with every Razbam module, that I purchased of the ED Store; losing access to harrier, SE, M2000, M19 as well as having purchased the Bae Hawk as well......

Let's just say, I'm really starting to get irritated. DCS is an entertainment investment, but an investment none the less. Ultimately, I hold ED responsible. It's your platform and It's a good one. 

Run it well, I do pray you; and do what's right. 

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by LancerVI

[Romandv]

1 час назад, LancerVI сказал:

As a customer with every Razbam module, that I purchased of the ED Store; losing access to harrier, SE, M2000, M19 as well as having purchased the Bae Hawk as well......

 

ENG: "ED is not going to modify other people's modules in any way. We are trying to keep what we have working."

 

Even in a bad scenario, we will likely get what we already have in working order. Personally, that's enough for me in terms of RB aircraft, i'm not optimistic even if they come back, as this kind of precedent is a very negative case.

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by Romandv

[Beirut]

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

Just to be clear, DCS is not at risk of going away.

 

Better not. I got a hot date with a Chinook in a few weeks. 

[addman]

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

Just to be clear, DCS is not at risk of going away.

No but your customers might, unless ED becomes more transparent towards the community and finds a more sustainable way for 3rd party developers to maintain their products. I'm not sure I want to buy even Heatblur products any more if I can't be assured that it will be 100% supported to function in DCS throughout it's life time.

Even if ED manage to square things out with Razbam it doesn't solve the fundamental issues long term. This has been a real wake-up call for the community and should be one for ED too.

ED should restructure with third party developers where third parties are OBLIGED to support their products, in return they may get compensated financially by a small monthly subscription fee for the customers which will be a pool of funds, ear-marked for updating and maintaining existing products. This way developers don't have to work "for free" when maintaining their products.

Or, ED could assign a couple of developers from their own stables to work more closely with third parties in maintaining their products, they might be privy to source code under NDA of course from third parties.

You could make it work in many different ways but it's obvious, by this problem which is yet to be resolved, that the current model is way too fragile and consequences of a relatively large developer like Razbam leaving DCS World would be catastrophic, to say the least.

Edited June 10, 2024 by addman

[SkateZilla]

13 minutes ago, addman said:

No but your customers might, unless ED becomes more transparent towards the community and finds a more sustainable way for 3rd party developers to maintain their products. I'm not sure I want to buy even Heatblur products any more if I can't be assured that it will be 100% supported to function in DCS throughout it's life time.

Even if ED manage to square things out with Razbam it doesn't solve the fundamental issues long term. This has been a real wake-up call for the community and should be one for ED too.

ED should restructure with third party developers where third parties are OBLIGED to support their products, in return they may get compensated financially by a small monthly subscription fee for the customers which will be a pool of funds, ear-marked for updating and maintaining existing products. This way developers don't have to work "for free" when maintaining their products.

Or, ED could assign a couple of developers from their own stables to work more closely with third parties in maintaining their products, they might be privy to source code under NDA of course from third parties.

You could make it work in many different ways but it's obvious, by this problem which is yet to be resolved, that the current model is way too fragile and consequences of a relatively large developer like Razbam leaving DCS World would be catastrophic, to say the least.

 

For the record, ED is Being plenty transparent. just because you arent getting daily updates and behind the scenes post it notes? no corporation will public update contract disputes.

For Example, Is MS giving you daily updates (or asobo), about their legal battle with several aircraft manufacturers about license breaches for FS2020/2024? Nope, is it happening? Yup.

The Issue between ED and RB isn't about sustainability and financial future stability, it's about contract breaches.

The 3rd Party eco-system doesn't need to change, the contracts exist for a reason, 3rd parties control their own destiny's.

Pretty sure part of their contract obligation is supporting their products even after release.

 

That being said, this stuff happens all the time, everywhere, it's not a ED <-> 3rd Party problem, it's the nature of businesses.

The only reason we got 70 Pages of rumors, opinions, speculations, arguments, refund requests, etc etc. is because one side decided to go public, that's was their decision, it's over and done with, there's no take-backsies. Motives or intentions don't matter, it's a legal and operational distraction from the goal of getting the issue resolved..

So what was already a long enduring process, is likely going to take longer due to the negotiation and operational pause coming out of the darkness and into the light.




 

[bumfire]

On 6/8/2024 at 12:35 PM, BIGNEWY said:

If you purchased from our store contact support directly, please note you can only refund the F-15E for a store credit, and there is a wait for the refund to be processed. 

We would prefer you hold out as we hope the situation will be resolved, and it is a great module. 

thank you

I bought the SE roughly when it first came out, but I’ve never used it at all, along with about 5 other modules because I’ve been really busy. However, I have faith that things will work out between ed and razbam and if not, it’s good to hear that refunds will be issued points wise. I don’t want a refund, I want a Strike Eagle and problems like this could make people think twice before buying 3rd party modules. I couldn’t handle another Hawk T2 like situation, but I have faith that things will work themselves out. 
 

 

 

[BIGNEWY]

7 minutes ago, bumfire said:

I bought the SE roughly when it first came out, but I’ve never used it at all, along with about 5 other modules because I’ve been really busy. However, I have faith that things will work out between ed and razbam and if not, it’s good to hear that refunds will be issued points wise. I don’t want a refund, I want a Strike Eagle and problems like this could make people think twice before buying 3rd party modules. I couldn’t handle another Hawk T2 like situation, but I have faith that things will work themselves out. 
 

 

 

Thank you, and yes we hope it will work out best for all also. 

RAZBAM have just announced an upcoming update for the South Atlantic terrain so that is good news. 

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544224332709232660/1249683781397254154
link to discord message. 

[Peq]

I'm sticking it out. I don't want a refund (unless complete debacle like Mudhen only available in older DCS versions). I remain optimistic.

[bumfire]

5 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Thank you, and yes we hope it will work out best for all also. 

RAZBAM have just announced an upcoming update for the South Atlantic terrain so that is good news. 

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544224332709232660/1249683781397254154
link to discord message. 

That update is good to hear, it should help ease people’s minds regarding their fear of being abandoned by razbam . Thanks for the update

[eFirehawk]

27 minutes ago, addman said:

No but your customers might, unless ED becomes more transparent towards the community and finds a more sustainable way for 3rd party developers to maintain their products. I'm not sure I want to buy even Heatblur products any more if I can't be assured that it will be 100% supported to function in DCS throughout it's life time.

Look, I'm pretty sure I'm among one of the (if not THE most) emotionally invested guy in the F-15E module and I am likely the most disappointed guy here, but in ED's defense they have plenty of other modules under their belt and many good stories (as fr as we know) with other 3rd party devs. VEAO and RB are not the majority of cases. All I all I do believe that ED isn't innocent either and both RB and ED share the blame, but calling the future of all of DCS in danger because of disasters with a relatively small number of devs is a bit much. Again, ED hasn't been exactly 'exemplary' in my opinion lately but it definitely doesn't feel like the end just because of a bunch of angry internet posts.

[Fuchs]

17 hours ago, Kercheiz said:

Could you please quote or link the exact message from Galinette?

https://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=432&t=219674&start=125#p1960719

[Romandv]

43 минуты назад, BIGNEWY сказал:

Thank you, and yes we hope it will work out best for all also. 

RAZBAM have just announced an upcoming update for the South Atlantic terrain so that is good news. 

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544224332709232660/1249683781397254154
link to discord message. 

As far as I know, these are the same people who made Kola under the Orbx brand and there were no problems with SA before - it gets updates as it is handled by other people.

Not quite sure what this has to do with RB modules.

[Silver_Dragon]

1 minute ago, Romandv said:

As far as I know, these are the same people who made Kola under the Orbx brand and there were no problems with SA before - it gets updates as it is handled by other people.

Not quite sure what this has to do with RB modules.

Has correct.

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, Romandv said:

As far as I know, these are the same people who made Kola under the Orbx brand and there were no problems with SA before - it gets updates as it is handled by other people.

Not quite sure what this has to do with RB modules.

The project is licenced under RAZBAM, it has everything to do with them. 

[Gorn_GER]

On 6/8/2024 at 1:35 PM, BIGNEWY said:

If you purchased from our store contact support directly, please note you can only refund the F-15E for a store credit, and there is a wait for the refund to be processed. 

We would prefer you hold out as we hope the situation will be resolved, and it is a great module. 

thank you

I would prefer, not to refund my Razbam modules but if this situation keep on for a while and come to a bad end, will we still have the option to refund them later, after the official announcement? 

[BIGNEWY]

5 minutes ago, Gorn_GER said:

I would prefer, not to refund my Razbam modules but if this situation keep on for a while and come to a bad end, will we still have the option to refund them later, after the official announcement? 

Only the F-15E can be refunded currently and we would prefer you hold out for the resolution and continue to enjoy it for now. Once we have a resolution to the dispute we will know more. 

thank you 

[Nightdare]

49 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

For the record, ED is Being plenty transparent. just because you arent getting daily updates and behind the scenes post it notes? no corporation will public update contract disputes.

For Example, Is MS giving you daily updates (or asobo), about their legal battle with several aircraft manufacturers about license breaches for FS2020/2024? Nope, is it happening? Yup.

 

Exactly, there is no company entirely "transparant". Not to it's customers, contractors, or even stock holders

Everything is on "need to know basis"

 

49 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

The Issue between ED and RB isn't about sustainability and financial future stability, it's about contract breaches.

The 3rd Party eco-system doesn't need to change, the contracts exist for a reason, 3rd parties control their own destiny's.

Pretty sure part of their contract obligation is supporting their products even after release.

 

That being said, this stuff happens all the time, everywhere, it's not a ED <-> 3rd Party problem, it's the nature of businesses.

 

Indeed

 

49 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

The only reason we got 70 Pages of rumors, opinions, speculations, arguments, refund requests, etc etc. is because one side decided to go public, that's was their decision, it's over and done with, there's no take-backsies. Motives or intentions don't matter, it's a legal and operational distraction from the goal of getting the issue resolved..

So what was already a long enduring process, is likely going to take longer due to the negotiation and operational pause coming out of the darkness and into the light.

 

The only reason we have 70 pages is because the people that saw RB's comment about the situation either want a "bad guy" to blame, or guarantees they won't lose what they paid for

That first part is childish, grown men trying to pick a side from 1 statement of 1 party (without any context 'why')

 

That 2nd part is worthy of discussion, though I hope that after the Hawk issue, ED would have set up certain 'securities' to prevent losing a whole lot of content (and with that, a whole lot of customers) and futureproofing that content that it doesn't end up abandonware

 

-Personally, I think licensing and copyright law globally needs an entire overhaul, especially with 'goods' that need no real resources, but that's not a discussion here

[Gorn_GER]

1 minute ago, BIGNEWY said:

Only the F-15E can be refunded currently and we would prefer you hold out for the resolution and continue to enjoy it for now. Once we have a resolution to the dispute we will know more. 

thank you 

Can you confirm, that the other modules will keep maintained if razbam leaves (to a point that they will at least stay at status quo) and wont break with further patches? 

[BIGNEWY]

1 minute ago, Gorn_GER said:

Can you confirm, that the other modules will keep maintained if razbam leaves (to a point that they will at least stay at status quo) and wont break with further patches? 

We all hope for a good outcome, at the moment I can not say anything until the dispute is resolved. We will share more when it is possible. 

thank you 

[Nightdare]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

can not say anything until the dispute is resolved

 

To make that line clear to everyone: Both parties are instructed by their legal teams to say nothing that may antagonize, escalate or hinder any issues between them

@Gorn_GER Bignewy confirming your question, you may consider it as a guarantee ED protecting their customers, but could be taken by RB's lawyers as ED "planning to steal their stuff"

[IceyJones]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb nessuno0505:

All this discussion looks quite useless to me.

ED sells the modules, ED have to find a solution.

RB does the modules, if RB stops working the modules do not do it by themselves.

Now it's up to ED to decide what to do: what would you do in ED's place? Some refund even if in the form of a "voucher" has been given, for now, law or not, I would be satisfied. The day RB is no longer in DCS then maybe, if no one else takes care of their modules, you can ask for money back.

i dont know. store credits are only useful for me, if i intend to buy another module. as i see it, the next one that interests me is the EF. and who knows when that comes. maybe in 3, 4 years?

nah.....store credits only help ED

 

i would prefer, as its my right in the EU, to refund on my bank account. period.

ED is not delivering what was promised, if the f-15E dies..... = full refund.

simple as that!

[Oban]

11 minutes ago, IceyJones said:

i dont know. store credits are only useful for me, if i intend to buy another module. as i see it, the next one that interests me is the EF. and who knows when that comes. maybe in 3, 4 years?

nah.....store credits only help ED

 

i would prefer, as its my right in the EU, to refund on my bank account. period.

ED is not delivering what was promised, if the f-15E dies..... = full refund.

simple as that!

The F15E isn't dead, how many times do people have to be told? If it's not dead, then you don't get a full refund.

As it stands, the situation does not deem a full refund, irrespective of what right you may think you have.

[Blazkovitch]

3 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

For the record, ED is Being plenty transparent. just because you arent getting daily updates and behind the scenes post it notes? no corporation will public update contract disputes.

For Example, Is MS giving you daily updates (or asobo), about their legal battle with several aircraft manufacturers about license breaches for FS2020/2024? Nope, is it happening? Yup.

The Issue between ED and RB isn't about sustainability and financial future stability, it's about contract breaches.

The 3rd Party eco-system doesn't need to change, the contracts exist for a reason, 3rd parties control their own destiny's.

Pretty sure part of their contract obligation is supporting their products even after release.

 

That being said, this stuff happens all the time, everywhere, it's not a ED <-> 3rd Party problem, it's the nature of businesses.

The only reason we got 70 Pages of rumors, opinions, speculations, arguments, refund requests, etc etc. is because one side decided to go public, that's was their decision, it's over and done with, there's no take-backsies. Motives or intentions don't matter, it's a legal and operational distraction from the goal of getting the issue resolved..

So what was already a long enduring process, is likely going to take longer due to the negotiation and operational pause coming out of the darkness and into the light.

Someone should pin this post

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

2 hours ago, Fuchs said:

https://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=432&t=219674&start=125#p1960719

And this is why lawyers tell you to shut your trap.

[SignorMagnifico]

2 hours ago, Romandv said:

As far as I know, these are the same people who made Kola under the Orbx brand and there were no problems with SA before - it gets updates as it is handled by other people.

Not quite sure what this has to do with RB modules.

This is correct. The South Atlantic updates are handled by another team (not the aviation one), so this is not news one way or the other. The status quo with RAZBAM's aircraft modules remains unchanged.

Edited June 10, 2024 by SignorMagnifico