Elevator trim too aggressive

[Super Grover]

I agree fully!

The only thing I would add is that we can go the extra mile and tailor the delivered solution and in-sim-experience (immersion) to each user's configuration and expectation.

We proposed some initial settings as in the release version, but we will continue tuning them with your feedback to provide the best experience without making the simulation unrealistic. That's why it's early-access software.

Edited May 30, 2024 by Super Grover

[skywalker22]

5 hours ago, tusler said:

Yep, I agree about too sensitive, I am running a warthog, all stock no software, I have input curves, tried what i could, it will not fly level for me and if I get it as close as I can and let go of the stick to look in the cockpit, it is in a increasing bank when i look up. Might have been how the real acft flew and pilots had to feel the seat of the pants thing which we can not do in a sim, but it is no fun for me in a game.

With trimming its always a pain to make the plane fly straight.

Try to use Autopilot, thats what I do. I mapped these 2 functions (AFCS and ALT) which I need to a joystick. Thats why is there afterall. 

[Goofy12]

I think Relayer nailed it. In real life you bring the stick to where you want it to keep the attitude you want to and then trim towards this new state until you dont feel any force on the stick anymore. Without feeling the stick force, as in a sim, you trim until you dont see the pitch change anymore, its a bit of guessing till you get it right. Problem is you easily “overshoot” and have to trim the other way again. A larger trim range (so more trimming needed i.e. “less trim per click”) might make a sim more realistic. Although this might be different than the real thing, it still might make it more realistic. In the end, it still is a simulator we are dealing with. 
 

@Super Grover…..what a great module by the way…..absolutely love it, the immersion is phenomenal in VR, many thanks!!!

Edited May 30, 2024 by Goofy12

[Super Grover]

Thank you very much @Goofy12!

I'd add that for the owners of FFB sticks, it's more like in real life, and this requires separate approaches for FFB and non-FFB sticks. The issue is that the real-life system was a bit annoying. It's very challenging to recreate the exact level of annoyance to give the aircraft the same feeling - not too much to make it unrealistically painful, which can be even more exposed by the limitations of our hardware - but also to keep the need for constant re-trimming. Add character but not pain. Otherwise, it won't feel like the Phantom.

Once again, I want to reassure everyone that perfecting the aircraft's feel is a process that also requires user feedback based on individual perception and taking into account different hardware users may have. Our goal is not to have the F-4E, as we think is the most realistic interpretation, but the best software with which you can feel like flying the real aircraft and have fun doing that, so we don't take any decision just for the sake of being realistic. Realism, or rather observations from real aircraft and test pilots, which I often mention in my posts, are merely the entry point to a discussion to give enough context and also to be fully open with you and visualise all factors which we have to take in account when taking any design decision.

 

Edited May 30, 2024 by Super Grover

[mattag08]

On 5/25/2024 at 11:19 PM, GregP said:

Tried that and it didn't work - it just disabled the trim altogether.  Seems that value isn't modable the way it is in other DCS modules.

HOWEVER - very interesting results of another test I just tried: I assigned the pitch trim to not only my joystick trim hat, but also to my VKB STECS throttle's pinky rotary knob, which has distinct 'notched' rotation as opposed to being a smooth rotary analog axis.  For each 'click' of this rotary up or down, I see the pitch trim change by maybe half, at most, of how much it usually changes by using my stick's trim hat!  It seems this method avoids the 'auto-repeat' function because it's (presumably) just sending a single 'press' command each time I click it up or down and there's no way for it to register the button being seen as held down.  Trimming out the airplane is now very easy! Might be worth trying if others have similar rotaries.

 

You need to rebind the command after restarting your sim. When you change values in the input files DCS reads that as a "new key" and all binds associated with it are lost. I just tried to edit the defaults.lua file and it works exactly as 450Devil described.

[=475FG= Dawger]

59 minutes ago, Super Grover said:

Thank you very much @Goofy12!

I'd add that for the owners of FFB sticks, it's more like in real life, and this requires separate approaches for FFB and non-FFB sticks. The issue is that the real-life system was a bit annoying. It's very challenging to recreate the exact level of annoyance to give the aircraft the same feeling - not too much to make it unrealistically painful, which can be even more exposed by the limitations of our hardware - but also to keep the need for constant re-trimming. Add character but not pain. Otherwise, it won't feel like the Phantom.

Once again, I want to reassure everyone that perfecting the aircraft's feel is a process that also requires user feedback based on individual perception and taking into account different hardware users may have. Our goal is not to have the F-4E, as we think is the most realistic interpretation, but the best software with which you can feel like flying the real aircraft and have fun doing that, so we don't take any decision just for the sake of being realistic. Realism, or rather observations from real aircraft and test pilots, which I often mention in my posts, are merely the entry point to a discussion to give enough context and also to be fully open with you and visualise all factors which we have to take in account when taking any design decision.

 

 

All airplanes require constant trimming, whether done manually or by automation. Please don't dumb that down in the Phantom. Its one of the most annoying things about pre-fly by wire aircraft in DCS, they have some serious compromises to flight modeling for "playability". 

[Goofy12]

13 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

All airplanes require constant trimming, whether done manually or by automation. Please don't dumb that down in the Phantom. Its one of the most annoying things about pre-fly by wire aircraft in DCS, they have some serious compromises to flight modeling for "playability". 

It’s not about constant trimming, I totally agree with you. I love flying the F-5, which needs your constant trimming as well.  It’s about how fiercely the trim reacts to your trim input. 

[Relayer]

33 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

All airplanes require constant trimming, whether done manually or by automation. Please don't dumb that down in the Phantom. Its one of the most annoying things about pre-fly by wire aircraft in DCS, they have some serious compromises to flight modeling for "playability". 

I don't see anyone asking for it to be "dumbed down".

[YSIAD_RIP]

AFCS -Autopilot and ALT Hold are my friends in the new F-4E.

• The best plane to implement Trim Speed Options today I feel is the A-4E-C mod.
• The once "free MB-339" Mod also had a handy Trim Speed SPECIAL menu Option that is now sorely missed.  

I really appreciate the latest Heatblur "work of art" F-4E.  Excited to see what fixes and improvements come in future updates.  - no rush   - 

Edited May 30, 2024 by YSIAD_RIP

[Victory205]

FWIW, the goal we had with the F14 module was to make the sim fly like the aircraft did, including its idiosyncrasies and challenges, and not succumb to making it fly the way we “wished” it would fly. 

For perspective, the A-4 series of jets that we all flew in training were very sensitive in pitch and roll, yet students earned their instrument ratings in them (no autopilot by the way). I don’t think that in two years, that I ever got an TA-4J completely trimmed for more than 30 seconds in smooth air during cruise.

The F14 was more stable than the A-4, and much easier to fly on instruments, or during approaches or landings. I see a lot of comparisons here to the F14 module, understand that the F-4E should feel less stable than the Tomcat.

Trimming and flight path corrections are part of a constant process. The pilot was constantly making tiny inputs, and “hands off” flight usually meant accepting a small deviation in vertical rates. Fighters and Attack aircraft would not pass FAA Certification Standards.

I’ve emphasized this many times, you need to support your right forearm and fly with your fingers and wrist. You will be making small inputs in pitch at all times.

Edited May 30, 2024 by Victory205

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Goofy12 said:

It’s not about constant trimming, I totally agree with you. I love flying the F-5, which needs your constant trimming as well.  It’s about how fiercely the trim reacts to your trim input. 

I was not referring to the bug report. It seems that some user hardware is causing trim issues.
 

However, the HB boys seem very anxious to please everyone, which can quickly lead to milquetoast flight modeling. 

1 hour ago, Relayer said:

I don't see anyone asking for it to be "dumbed down".

I believe in preemptive strikes. 

[CF104]

1 hour ago, Victory205 said:

FWIW, the goal we had with the F14 module was to make the sim fly like the aircraft did, including its idiosyncrasies and challenges, and not succumb to making it fly the way we “wished” it would fly. 

For perspective, the A-4 series of jets that we all flew in training were very sensitive in pitch and roll, yet students earned their instrument ratings in them (no autopilot by the way). I don’t think that in two years, that I ever got an TA-4J completely trimmed for more than 30 seconds in smooth air during cruise.

The F14 was more stable than the A-4, and much easier to fly on instruments, or during approaches or landings. I see a lot of comparisons here to the F14 module, understand that the F-4E should feel less stable than the Tomcat.

Trimming and flight path corrections are part of a constant process. The pilot was constantly making tiny inputs, and “hands off” flight usually meant accepting a small deviation in vertical rates. Fighters and Attack aircraft would not pass FAA Certification Standards.

I’ve emphasized this many times, you need to support your right forearm and fly with your fingers and wrist. You will be making small inputs in pitch at all times.

 

 

I don't think there's a debate going on in regards to the flight behavior of the F-4E. For me at least, it's the speed of the trimming itself. I have no problem making small trim adjustments as required. As long as the adjustments don't give me 1000-2000 fpm excursions. With my hardware, WinWing Orion2/F-16EX joystick, I can't "flick" the hat quick enough to get the "tiny inputs" you're talking about. And this is what I think the discussion here is about. If I could get it down to trimming with "tiny inputs" via my hardware I'd be happy to trim the jet all day long.

As an aside, I have an original B8 grip in my collection and the trim hat on it has very aggressive centering. I doubt you could do a "tiny input" of less than 100ms on the B8 hat. My hardware has much lighter centering and I'd more than likely halve the time per click. Unless a real B8 grip was used to program the current trim timing I'd say there's some valid comments/concerns from users here.

Cheers, John

[Victory205]

I’m using the same hardware and the response is easily flown according to my expectations from real world flying. Lots of variables, within a persons gaming rig, from springs, cams, extensions, refresh rates, arm geometry. Who knows what sort of hardware components variation may be lurking within the supply chain of PC flight control manufacturers?

[YSIAD_RIP]

Another Solution and or temporary workaround is to include some new * slow * keybindings for Trim that is 0.25 instead of 1. 

• I am using @Quaggles excellent DCS Input Command Injector Mod. 
• The default.lua would go here:
  • \Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\InputCommands\F-4E\Input\F-4E-Pilot\keyboard

For example the keybinds to use and default.lua file would look like this:

• return {
  
  	keyCommands = {
  		{ name = _('Trim - Nose Up (Hat Aft) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = 0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
  		{ name = _('Trim - Nose Down (Hat Forward) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = -0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
  		{ name = _('Trim - Left Wing Down (Hat Left) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimRoll, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimRoll, value_up = 0, value_pressed = -0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
  		{ name = _('Trim - Right Wing Down (Hat Right) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimRoll, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimRoll, value_up = 0, value_pressed = 0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
  	}
  		
  }

After testing, the best way to get the Phantom in level flight is still by using AFCS -Autopilot and ALT Hold. 

• Using the new keybinds for * Slow Trim it is much easier to trim out at + - 500 ft/min vs well over 1000 ft/min using default keybinds.
• For me all is good and I would expect that Heatblur has more important things to update and tweek before they get to Trim.

Cheers. 

default.lua

[Nealius]

4 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I believe in preemptive strikes

And gatekeeping, it seems.

[=475FG= Dawger]

56 minutes ago, Nealius said:

And gatekeeping, it seems.

You ascribe to me great power. 

[average_pilot]

We are just making sure we all have a faithful "Phantom trim experience^TM" regardless of hardware. No FM dumbing down, no gatekeeping.

[eatthis]

On 5/25/2024 at 9:00 PM, Victory205 said:

OK gents, I just trimmed out a 46,000 lb F-4E in the landing config with 4SP aboard at 800 MSL on the Caucuses Map. Sat there level for over four minutes using gentle rudder inputs to keep the wings level. The parameters were 168 KIAS, 87% rpm, 4700pph per engine fuel flow at exactly 19.2 units AOA with the aural tone constant. 

This is the way the F-4E flew, with sensitive pitch and trim. All of this was tested with detailed scrutiny, discussed at length, retested, ad nauseum. In due course, the SME's who flew the jet described it as correct. The overall handling feel reminds me a lot of the TA-4J, which is a quite a bit more sensitive in pitch and especially roll. Use very quick trim inputs, your right arm needs to be supported on your thigh or on the arm of a chair. It's obviously a finger tip aircraft, as was the real jet.

Don't forget that the thrust line causes a pitch down as power is applied, pitch up as power is reduced.

In the landing config, there is almost never a reason to input more than one quick click of pitch trim at a time. When you are stabilized on approach, you can also make very fine power adjustments using only one throttle.

I find the thing quite stable over all, easily holding ±50 feet at max mach. It's more honest and easier to control than some of the DCS "warbirds" in pitch. It's very easy to maneuver under G as well. You simply need to stay after it and gain experience. Make friends with it, practice, and press on.

The cool aspect was that when the aircraft flew over a ridge with a couple hundred feet, it picked up a 300 fpm rate of climb, then phugoided back to it's original state in one cycle after clearing the ridge. Perhaps it was DCS/HB modeling ground effect?

 

 

Don't forget that the thrust line causes a pitch down as power is applied, pitch up as power is reduced. 
that 1 is currently driving me nuts lol

[Hawkeye_UK]

On 5/27/2024 at 10:24 AM, Zabuzard said:

Are you playing in MT? It is likely that these issues are caused by that. Could you try in ST and see if its still present?

Also, try a keyboard instead of joystick hardware. Could possibly be the hardware sending the command too long as well.

I only play the MT version - given that we are now over 12 months in its really more the standard now for playing.  I see little point in ST play or testing given that should be phased out.  I think it important that HB take the same approach - it is pointless to be testing on both ST and MT given that MT is the version we need to get right!!

I have tested on both Virpil stick (with a thrustmaster F18 grip which i prefer) however have tested it on a warthog base, Virpil throttle, warthog throttle (odd binding i know but just testing the button theory) and even dug out a very old extra 1600.  All with the same effect.

It's exactly the same issue as when the mossie was released where one keypush moves the trim too much, someone in the community brought out a fix that reduced the value of the key input somehow and it was sorted, basically was like 20% of what ED had released.  The same can be said of the reticle depression on the F4 where a brief switch moves it no less than 6 units.

This is not a hardware issue, how do i know this, i have literally all modules except the Mig19, CE2 and the FC3 A10.

Edited May 31, 2024 by Hawkeye_UK

[schmiefel]

3 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

I have tested on both Virpil stick (with a thrustmaster F18 grip which i prefer) however have tested it on a warthog base, Virpil throttle, warthog throttle (odd binding i know but just testing the button theory) and even dug out a very old extra 1600.  All with the same effect.

Did you try reducing the button delay timings within the Virpil configuration software? I got slightly better results setting them to 0ms plus I set a deadzone within DCS of 6 for both stick axis.

[Zabuzard]

I only play the MT version - given that we are now over 12 months in its really more the standard now for playing.  I see little point in ST play or testing given that should be phased out.  I think it important that HB take the same approach - it is pointless to be testing on both ST and MT given that MT is the version we need to get right!!
I have tested on both Virpil stick (with a thrustmaster F18 grip which i prefer) however have tested it on a warthog base, Virpil throttle, warthog throttle (odd binding i know but just testing the button theory) and even dug out a very old extra 1600.  All with the same effect.
It's exactly the same issue as when the mossie was released where one keypush moves the trim too much, someone in the community brought out a fix that reduced the value of the key input somehow and it was sorted, basically was like 20% of what ED had released.  The same can be said of the reticle depression on the F4 where a brief switch moves it no less than 6 units.
This is not a hardware issue, how do i know this, i have literally all modules except the Mig19, CE2 and the FC3 A10.

Thank you for your feedback.

I would like us to differentiate trim from reticle depression, since they use different mechanisms in the code for their "rate". Former is controlled by us, latter by EDs native bind system ("key_pressed").
With latter, there seem to be differences between ST and MT as reported by the community, which would be an issue that needs to be addressed by ED.

That said, the upcoming patch will have extra slow/normal/fast binds for these knobs to help mitigate until that issue was sorted on EDs side. In the future we also plan adding self-accelerating binds.

Now, for the trim topic. Trimming and specificially is "rate" is, according to our data, currently working as intended. If you search the forum for "trim", you can find some great and detailed explanations posted by Gr0ver on this subject.
In a nutshell, the Phantom was known to be almost impossible to trim level and constantly required dancing the trim hat during the entire flight, like a warbird.
The effects change drastically for different airspeeds and attitudes though.

In order for us to differentiate between "this is odd, but actually correct" and "okay, this is definitely not working as it should for you", we would need a bit more data. Ideally would be a short video where you demonstrate what you are experiencing :)

As others mentioned, the minimum input time your specific hardware might be set to can also have a great influence sometimes. Imagine you tap the key only for 20ms but your hardware sends the command to us for 200ms instead. We are planning to perhaps add some options to mitigate such issues for people affected by this who can't adjust these times in their joystick software.

Hope that makes sense, cheers :)

[Tom Kazansky]

7 minutes ago, Zabuzard said:

We are planning to perhaps add some options to mitigate such issues for people affected by this who can't adjust these times in their joystick software.

Hope that makes sense, cheers

[Relayer]

On 5/30/2024 at 11:06 PM, YSIAD_RIP said:

Another Solution and or temporary workaround is to include some new * slow * keybindings for Trim that is 0.25 instead of 1. 

• I am using @Quaggles excellent DCS Input Command Injector Mod. 
• The default.lua would go here:
  • \Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\InputCommands\F-4E\Input\F-4E-Pilot\keyboard

For example the keybinds to use and default.lua file would look like this:

• return {
  
  	keyCommands = {
  		{ name = _('Trim - Nose Up (Hat Aft) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = 0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
  		{ name = _('Trim - Nose Down (Hat Forward) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = -0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
  		{ name = _('Trim - Left Wing Down (Hat Left) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimRoll, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimRoll, value_up = 0, value_pressed = -0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
  		{ name = _('Trim - Right Wing Down (Hat Right) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimRoll, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimRoll, value_up = 0, value_pressed = 0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
  	}
  		
  }

After testing, the best way to get the Phantom in level flight is still by using AFCS -Autopilot and ALT Hold. 

• Using the new keybinds for * Slow Trim it is much easier to trim out at + - 500 ft/min vs well over 1000 ft/min using default keybinds.
• For me all is good and I would expect that Heatblur has more important things to update and tweek before they get to Trim.

Cheers. 

default.lua 909 B · 4 downloads

Tried exactly this, with it set to 0.5, and finding it much, much better. Still need to trim a lot - but I can actually get the amount I need, rather than constantly overcorrecting.

[Shmal]

Dear Heatblure, Zabuzard particulary!

You have mentioned that the real Phantom is a very demanding for trimming aircraft! I believe you!

You made Tomcat and it is very demanding for trimming! It's Aerodynamic Focus constantly moving! But trimming works precise enough!

Opposite, Phantom feels like pretty stable in level flight and not very demanding for trim, though. But trimming works rough and has not enough precise to do work good.

As you see my examples shows the real feeling (my and my friends) who flies both birds maiden by Heatblure!

 

 

Edited June 1, 2024 by Shmal

[Zabuzard]

Dear Heatblure, Zabuzard particulary!
You have mentioned that the real Phantom is a very demanding for trimming aircraft! I believe you!
You made Tomcat and it is very demanding for trimming! It's Aerodynamic Focus constantly moving! But trimming works precise enough!
Opposite, Phantom feels like pretty stable in level flight and not very demanding for trim, though. But trimming works rough and has not enough precise to do work good.
As you see my examples shows the real feeling (my and my friends) who flies both birds maiden by Heatblure!
 
 

Thank you. What I meant to say is that any of the real pilots had exactly the same complaint.
They all said that the trim system is difficult to work with in almost any situation, hard and almost impossible to get trimmed proper, never able to be fully hands off and always in a slow up/down oscillation. My colleague gr0ver posted more detailed explanation and historical tidbits in other threads dealing with this topic.

I totally understand that it feels odd. We want you to experience this iconic jet the way it was in real life. So we wanted to preserve this unique trim system and how it must have felt to its users.

At the same time, we of course can't exclude bugs in the software - which is why we ask for a bit more data on the reports, so we can truly distinguish an actual and buggy behavior from odd-but-authentic behavior