Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Nedum]

On 7/16/2024 at 1:40 PM, MAXsenna said:

Pretty sure both the Rhino and the Beast leaves the Brunner in the dust...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

Spudspud does not know what an FFB base actually is. Let's just leave it at at that.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Could it be there are different Videos from Spud from his MOZA Flight stick FFB testing?

In the Video I was watching, he clearly said, MOZA send him a bundle to test how it would work t o g e t h e r e !

And as far I can say from watching the Video, all he said about that combi was right.

The option to change the position of the base is too short in all ways. The FFB Base is even at the max low setting of the mounting device so high, that the base will block the legs and also too far away from the Pilot's body. And the movement range of the Grip to the front is blocked by the mounting device no matter what setting you use.  

So he was testing the bundle, like MOZA wanted, and he gave feedback. The tested bundle, to make it short, suxxs.

Was Spud right?

Yes he was. Without any doubt, that bundle is bad, even if you try to use it as a side mounting device.

Please guys, watch the video again and stop this bad talking about a person who did that what Moza wanted.

I am happy what he did. Because of that Moza has now the chance to build a much better mounting device and because of that every future customer has a chance of a much better experience as with the device which Spud has tested.

Edited July 17, 2024 by Nedum

[Aapje]

22 minutes ago, Nedum said:

Could it be there are different Videos from Spud from his MOZA Flight stick FFB testing?

I don't see any such videos on his channel, just the reaction in the community tab. Can you provide links to these mysterious videos that no one has of yet linked to, here?

[Cgjunk2]

On 7/14/2024 at 10:21 AM, Nightdare said:

 

Good job, the Moza FFB marketing is now dead in the water

This product is only for those with dedicated simpits and can only be reviewed by guys that are able to reconfigure their existing rig to mount this up

I got a great sales slogan:

"Amateurs need not apply, only for Elite simmers" (And since we'll never get our investment back with that little marketshare, forget about a desktop version)

 

 

 

 

 

On 7/14/2024 at 10:38 AM, Cab said:

You act like his "review" will end there, when he clearly wrote a video is coming soon but he wanted to early warn potential pre-purchasers about this one detail.

 

To clarify my comment about "youtuber" reviewers that don't know what FFB is, I wasn't necessarily speaking about Spudknocker (I'm not that familiar with what he does).    My annoyance is about a general trend of asinine review, offering insights about how  "solid it feels", and that "it's made of metal and high quality plastics", and "it moves smoothly to all 4 corners"...pretending as if they're not just throwing out another monetized review that's as pointless as AI generated youtube content.   In fairness, some of the dumb videos were at the expo, where anybody could make a video.   But the few I've seen of people receiving a unit from Moza have not been informational, despite having hollywood levels of production quality.  Yeah sure, they might be flight simmers, but if they don't understand the physics or effects that FFB is modeling, then their input is pretty pointless.  It would be like Nikon sending a flagship DSLR camera to people that say they like taking pictures.  You might get a really relevant review, or you might get someone complaining they can't take selfies with it.  

All I'm saying is that Moza's selection of influencer-type reviewers may end up causing more harm than good..  Too many youtubers are self-promoters and are more interested in buzz that generates them clicks.   That said, it seems like most product launches for anything in general these days all seem to follow the same formula...the manufacturer picks their chosen reviewers, sends them product or invites them to an old-school "press junket".... and the very next day you have the EXACT same drivel being put out by 100 different youtubers, all with the EXACT same *jazz-hands* thumbnail...ugh.   Seriously, I'd rather watch AI content just for the giggles I get from hearing mispronounced words by a voicebot with an australian accent. 

Spudknockers comment about the stick not getting full throw is really a problem with the mount geometry and dimensions, not the FFB stick proper.    I mean, a mount is not exactly high technology.  He could have simply gotten in contact with them to tell them the mount has incorrect or insufficient dimensions for the setup he's using, and tell them he's unable to review it as a mount/FFB package until they send him an appropriate mount, because he doesn't want to crush his trigger finger.  That's assuming Moza intends on selling a purpose built mount.  He chose to announce this caution to the general public...no big deal I guess, besides bad press for Moza (which would be Moza's error ultimately, even if I don't want to see them get bad press).  If Moza graced Spudknocker with a FFB stick, it's because they want the exposure that his review will generate, so I'm sure they would send out an appropriate mount pretty quickly.   On the other hand, maybe Spudknocker doesn't care about mounting it in a way that will allow a proper review.   I guess we'll see when he releases his video review.  Hopefully it's not full of comments such as "made of metal and high quality plastics" and talking about how smooth it feels when it's powered off

I'm rooting for Moza and FFB in general.  I'd hate for Moza to have marketing missteps and set back FFB unnecessarily.  I hope their marketing team was briefed by engineering that this unit is NOT, in any way, designed to work on *top* of a desk (the stick grip would probably be at neck level on most people, which could cause someone to get clubbed in the chin lol).  Sorry, but if somebody feels it's elitist to say you shouldn't use this on top of a desk, well then, they don't really understand what FFB is and they'd be royally wasting their money.   That said, it would be wise for Moza to offer a lowered desk mount for this specific unit to let the casual gamer use it appropriately, easily, and safely.  So if they are sending them out for reviews, the mount needs to have the correct dimensions. 

But if Moza does not intend to produce a mount for it, then they need to make it very clear that the reviewer/purchaser is responsible for figuring out a mounting solution (and they aren't responsible for crushed fingers or bloody noses lol). 

Edited July 18, 2024 by Cgjunk2

[Aapje]

Properly reviewing hardware requires an obsession with hardware that causes the reviewer to want to sacrifice their performance in game and the time they have to actually fly, to actually review a lot of different things. After all, switching to different hardware just to test it, is going to take away time from flying, and is going to detract from working towards an optimal setup. Instead, the reviewer will be fighting with the hardware (and the settings).

And it is very hard to properly review hardware without doing that a lot, gaining experience at reviewing, which is different from getting experience at just playing the game. A good reviewer needs to look beyond their own specific setup and desires, so the review is valuable to way more people than just those who have the exact same setup and desires.

If I look at Spudknocker's video's, then I spot a mere 3 hardware review videos, which suggests that he had a very stable setup and doesn't have broad experience with hardware, and doesn't have the required obsession with hardware to be a good reviewer. After all, if he had that obsession, he would have made more than 3 hardware videos. He also reviewed just mainstream stuff of one brand (Trustmaster). I don't trust reviewers whose standard is Trustmaster and who have so little interest in hardware that they just always buy from one brand.

And there is also something in Spudknocker's past that puts doubt in my mind over the kind of person he is (lying about being a real pilot).

Anyway, I'd like to see a review by G-LOC Media or Antti Ilomäki (note that I have no information to suggest that they got a review unit). Unfortunately, I do not know of any other channels that I can trust to do a good job. I think that Get Your Game On, VR Flight Sim Guy or SimHanger Flight Simulation could do a review that is at least partly informative.

Quote

Hopefully it's not full of comments such as "made of metal and high quality plastics" and talking about how smooth it feels when it's powered off

Most likely it will actually have cogging when the unit is off, since the anti-cogging in the Rhino and FFBeast only works when the unit is on. So I expect the same here.

[pierscockey]

I've just pre-ordered in the UK.  Moza make quality products, so I don't feel there's much risk on that part.  Counting on there being a big backlog of orders when the proper reviews do start dropping (Spudknocker has probably done me a favour order number-wise, despite being a simple clamp issue!), and even if there turns out to be issues, I very much doubt the problem would be with hardware but software, which can be sorted out in time.  Regardless, it's going to be better than my non-FFB base.  Been on the fence for some time building a Rhino, but I've never committed due to time (and laziness!).  This is the perfect option for me.

[rapid]

I placed my order on the 28 June. The reason why I chose the Moza was because of its size, seems so far from what I have seen  the smallest.

Winwings is way to big for me. Flitesims render looks too large as well while the   Virpil has been in production for years  .

Thurstmaster is taking the piss with their resent release of the AVA. Moza are already familiar with FFB so it shouldn't be too hard for them to fix any issues.                                                                                                                                                                      

[petsild]

Hi,

In his experience Spudknocker mentions this important point:
 

Quote

 

Base Does not allow for a slight 5ish Degree twist to the stick, this creates an extremely weird feeling while flying having your wrist cocked the right just to reach stick buttons,

and is wholly unrealistic.

 

He probably means to turn the grip instead of the base, so who has experience how much is the optimal turn for the wrist?

 

[Baldrick33]

40 minutes ago, petsild said:

Hi,

In his experience Spudknocker mentions this important point:
 

He probably means to turn the grip instead of the base, so who has experience how much is the optimal turn for the wrist?

 

I prefer a slight twist but extensions usually make that an easy option. I would floor mount and use an extension so doubt this would be an issue.

[petsild]

On 7/11/2024 at 12:09 PM, rapid said:

Here is the way Spudknocker has mounted his Moza FFB.

He is a cool guy I just think he has jumped the gun a bit in his quick early review.

null

The assembly of the base that Spudknocker did is completely wrong.
From the very first demos shown, Moza must be placed on the ground and use the extension attachment.

[zcaa0g]

The biggest thing they need to address is having the Virpil grip analog triggers work as analog triggers and not mere buttons.  That's a deal breaker.  I'm not too concerned about the force feedback hardware capability because the software in terns of options, compatibility, and level of telemetry capability is going to be the real factor in terms of effectiveness.

I think they jumped the gun a bit in terms of announcing this and should have waited a bit to be more prepared.  I guess they didn't want to miss out on the FS Expo though to generate hype.

Edited July 18, 2024 by zcaa0g

[Art-J]

With them having a solid amount of experience in racing gear but no experience whatsoever in flight gear, I think time of announcement was as good as any. Early adopters would deal with the same initial issues anyway. But that's just a part of adopter adventure.

[agrasyuk]

On 7/18/2024 at 12:48 PM, Art-J said:

With them having a solid amount of experience in racing gear but no experience whatsoever in flight gear, I think time of announcement was as good as any. Early adopters would deal with the same initial issues anyway. But that's just a part of adopter adventure.

Moza might have experience with racing , and their stuff is okay when it works. but they don't give a <profanity> when their finicky equipment becomes a paperweight after firmware update. Since they wouldn't fix  the wheel under warranty I opened it up. Couldn't find a replacement for the failed comms chip... Sad. Oh well, I moved on. I do want a FFB base for my sim, but I'm not holding my breath for Moza and certainly not preordering. Will wait to see if it makes to a shelf at Microcenter, maybe then I will try it. 

 

Edited July 20, 2024 by agrasyuk

[Bucic]

Just when I thought a lathe is the only item on my list that can afford me a divorce

[agrasyuk]

16 hours ago, Bucic said:

Just when I thought a lathe is the only item on my list that can afford me a divorce

Not sure what you are talking about man. Lathe is actually a really great thing for marriage  

 

 

Edited July 20, 2024 by agrasyuk

[rapid]

Hi All,

Looks like as we move closer to release date Moza has released more information:

User Manual: https://image.gudsen.com/mozaracing/flight/MOZA AB9 FFB Base User Manual-min.pdf

Moza Installer : https://image.gudsen.com/mozaracing/flight/MOZA_Cockpit_Offline_Installer_V1.0.0.3.exe

 

Installation Method

Desktop or Rig !!!!!!!DeskTop This must be a joke this thing is huge!!! will need it's own Post code (Zip code)

Desktop Clamp

Optional>>>>More like a MUST!!!!!!

 

Edited July 23, 2024 by rapid

[rapid]

On 7/2/2024 at 11:45 AM, yogi149 said:

Hi,

with CAD it is easy

 

but rounded to full mm.

Looks like you were spot on yogi149

[Aapje]

Note that I have an overview of the various bases with the information about them here:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/88770-ffb-joysticks/

I use that to keep track of the info myself, so I don't have to go looking for it again.

[Teh-Stig]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:47 AM, ebabil said:

I have to use two sticks because I can’t fly helicopters without ffb. But my msffb2 stick is so old fashioned, its buttons are not enough. I am thinking about getting this base and use this one for all aircraft’s. 
but the base looks insanely big. My desk mount doesn’t seem to be able to handle it. I need something different 

You know you can add more buttons? 

 

[MAXsenna]

You know you can add more buttons? 
 

Many different ways to do that. Do you have any similar links for the FFB2? You have a modified Pro. I'm really interested if there are modified firmware for the FFB2, to get rid of the ridiculous hardware deadzone.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Teh-Stig]

On 6/26/2024 at 9:51 PM, Aapje said:

Again, I'm referring to price/performance, not just price. The quality is lacking in those cheap options.

What I want is for there to be a solid options for as low a price point as possible. Of course there are always people who want products for even less than that, but they cannot reasonably complain when it is not possible to produce somewhat decent quality at their preferred price point.

'You get what you pay for' is just a cliché. The very fact that the Ursa Minor was able to offer much better quality for a similar price as the T.16000M shows that people didn't in fact get the quality they could get for that price point, and still, they don't get what they pay for from TM when it comes to joysticks. I believe that the same is true for the TWCS and that for a similar price point, better products can be sold.

Keep in mind that the flight sim market was in decline for a while, causing a lack of investment in equipment. Things changed and flight simming is now a lot more popular again.

Not sure why you are phrasing an agreement with what I said as if it were a disagreement. I was pointing out that propelor ignored the demand curve and merely referred to the supply curve (given his argument that only relative prices of products matter).

The actual reason was an overal decline in demand, which made all flight sim equipment a less interesting market for companies.

You can actually get a wheel and pedals for less than $100, but without FFB and you'll be better off with a controller.

So this is a pretty useless comparison when you don't factor in price/performance. And price/performance at the low-end of the simracing market has actually improved a lot in the recent past, so why would the same not be possible for flight simming?

It's called the Ursa Minor, not Major. And you completely fail to explain why those extra costs would push the price from $110 to $300. The entire FSSB2 was almost sold for that price difference, compensating for inflation. So why do you think that a new iteration would have to cost so much more?

I don't think that your stab in the dark at the required price makes sense.

Of course, at the low end there is less room for competition. But that doesn't mean that it can't be a solid earner for a company or two. You also completely ignore my point that the product would not just earn money directly, but would result in more sales for the more expensive products from the same brand.

You are about a factor of two off, with the new R3 bundle being sold for $399 (and that does include pedals). This is rather illustrative for the extent to which I think you overestimate the required costs.

Note that the R3 is designed for upselling and reuse of components, not the lowest price, with its detachable wheels. Cammus shows that you can make a direct drive systems even cheaper with an all-in-one design.

Not needed for the category of simmers who care more about having fun than optimizing their times. The steering wheel FFB tends to produce the fun, the pedals are more about good lap times.

Note that I've ignored pedals for flight simming completely, as a sufficiently fun experience can be had in flight simming with a twist stick as well. Of course, flight simming is not as good without rudder pedals and racing not as nice without a good set of pedals, but realistically, a low-end setup can do with poor racing pedals for sim racing and without rudder pedals for flight simming.

It's a poor setup that doesn't provide value for money, in my opinion. I would advise people to instead get the Ursa Minor if they don't have to deal with excessive import taxes and then combine that with a (second-hand or discounted) TWCS or a new VKB STECS MiniPlus or a Virpil CDT-VMAX.

But that would mean a bigger expenditure at first (although it should last longer and have better resale value). I hope that a new throttle will be released at the $100-$150 price point that is actually good at throttling, which ironically, is where the TWCS is weakest at. Note that I see the TWCS being sold for 85 euros in my country, which is with 21% taxes included, so a new low end competitor for $150 would actually allow for a decent amount of extra production costs.

Well, your 'realistic' sim racing price are actually about twice the actually realistic prices, so I'm pretty confident that you overestimate the costs.

 

We can thank <profanity>ty companies <profanity>ty practices for lots of this.  Patent licensing effectively killed the force feedback joystick for 20 years.  And console licensing put your basic device prices up by at least $100 (e.g. I bought the G27 for half the price of a G920), the fact companies need to sell and stock two different devices just to have different button layouts and icons hurts everyone.

I don't see a cheap FFB device coming any time soon.

[Teh-Stig]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Many different ways to do that. Do you have any similar links for the FFB2? You have a modified Pro. I'm really interested if there are modified firmware for the FFB2, to get rid of the ridiculous hardware deadzone.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Buttons are easy on either, as you can just have a standalone usb device for them (e.g. Arduino).  That's happening internally in mine anyway (there is a usb hub in there, a Teensy running the FFB, and an Arduino for the grip).

My understanding is there isn't a hardware deadzone in the FFB2, I've been told it's more due to them wearing out over 20 odd years.  The FFB2 would expectedly wear our faster than the original since the original uses optical for its axes.

[ebabil]

2 hours ago, Teh-Stig said:

You know you can add more buttons? 

 

this "can" doesn't apply to me

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Teh-Stig said:

Buttons are easy on either, as you can just have a standalone usb device for them (e.g. Arduino).  That's happening internally in mine anyway (there is a usb hub in there, a Teensy running the FFB, and an Arduino for the grip).

Even easier if you use an unused Warthog or Virpil base.

1 hour ago, Teh-Stig said:

My understanding is there isn't a hardware deadzone in the FFB2, I've been told it's more due to them wearing out over 20 odd years.

Well, they have. It's extremely easy to see in the DCS controls indicator. All five of mine are the same. If someone doesn't believe me, just trim the stick in a helicopter, and the deadzone will follow the trimmed position.

1 hour ago, Teh-Stig said:

The FFB2 would expectedly wear our faster than the original since the original uses optical for its axes.

In the pots, maybe. MS have used really high end pots it seems. Can't feel a precision difference compared to my Warthog/Virpil. 

Cheers! 

[cordite]

On 7/25/2024 at 11:27 PM, Teh-Stig said:

We can thank <profanity>ty companies <profanity>ty practices for lots of this.  Patent licensing effectively killed the force feedback joystick for 20 years.  And console licensing put your basic device prices up by at least $100 (e.g. I bought the G27 for half the price of a G920), the fact companies need to sell and stock two different devices just to have different button layouts and icons hurts everyone.

I don't see a cheap FFB device coming any time soon.

Lack of demand killed the FF joystick. Nothing to do with patent licensing. M$ held the FF joystick patent, and they didn’t care about trying to troll it.

[zcaa0g]

It was a combination of the two actually, but lack of demand was the primary factor.  100% of us may want force feedback, but the overall audience size wasn't large enough. 

When almost everyone was locked down during the pandemic, people needed to find more/new indoor hobbies and I think that grew the audience size.  We'll that along with thw debut of MSFS 2020.

I'm just glad it's back and picking up steam between VPForce, Moza, WinWing and probably next year, Virpil.  And then VKB in the year 2037.