Is the apache really that bad?

[v2tec]

I thought this is a modern attack helicopter - is it really simulated like in the real world?

There are many high sophisticated computers build in, cool MPDs, digital instruments...

1) Why do I need the ruder pedal and the stick to find the right spot for a smooth lift off or landing? Can't this bird just calculate what is the rotation speed of the rotor and what counter rotation is necessary to keep the bird straight and focused and then apply it?

2) The hover / trim modes are terrible. I flew many hours and got some experience with the trim, but when I fly straight to an waypoint, I can not rely on the attitude hold mode. After a few seconds/minutes the bird starts shaking more and more. If I don't react I am going to crash. Maybe I need much more training. But really, is it that hard and complex in real life? It is not comparable to the KA50 - but maybe the KA50 is simulated much to easy in DCS?

 

Maybe this is on purpose - to give two players in the apache enough to do, so that it is not getting boring for the pilot.

Edited June 28, 2024 by v2tec

[NeedzWD40]

1 - I'll let the been there, done that professionals answer this one, but you can actually do this in game right now if you're careful with the collective and you're not overweight. Apply collective gradually and she'll lift off, then as soon as weight is off the wheels, the SAS will keep the nose pretty well centered. Same goes for landing. Whether or not that behavior is correct, I can't say.

2 - I believe it's been stated several times that the FM, SAS/SCAS, trim, and hold modes are all still WIP with further fine tuning required.

The Ka-50 really can't be compared to the AH-64 as there's far too many differences between the airframes, control logic, etc. The Mi-24P is closer, but not by a whole lot. I'd suggest checking the OH-58D out as so far it has been highly regarded in realism and handling.

In all this, do keep in mind that we're still under an abstract layer as our controls aren't 1:1 with the real things either. For example, I use a throttle and gasp push for power! And side stick, too!

Edited June 28, 2024 by NeedzWD40

[inexus]

Still waiting for the FM to be tweaked.... been waiting for a while now

[Glide]

This module takes some time to master, no question, but that doesn't make it bad.  I prefer the Apache over the Kiowa flight model.  Find or make a good mission so you can enjoy the module, not fight with it.  The Apache is my fav module now.

[bradmick]

WIP. The real bird is as stable as the  DCS Kiowa and Shark.

[JetCat]

Hm it´s a helicopter. Helicopters usually don´t use autopilot.

In reality it´s much more easy to fly, you sit in there and feel it with your body if it wants to spins a little bit, or if it starts to drift off, and you counter-act it´s movement by pure instinct with small smooth movements on stick and rudder.

A simulator is always much much more difficult to fly than the real thing, because you just see it´s movements on a flat 2D screen without any depth, and this is way more difficult than feeling it and see your surroundings in relation to the cockpit around you in 3D, and constantly make micro-counter-movements on the stick and rudder with ease out of pure instinct and flying experience.

[krazyj]

26 minutes ago, JetCat said:

Hm it´s a helicopter. Helicopters usually don´t use autopilot.

In reality it´s much more easy to fly, you sit in there and feel it with your body if it wants to spins a little bit, or if it starts to drift off, and you counter-act it´s movement by pure instinct with small smooth movements on stick and rudder.

A simulator is always much much more difficult to fly than the real thing, because you just see it´s movements on a flat 2D screen without any depth, and this is way more difficult than feeling it and see your surroundings in relation to the cockpit around you in 3D, and constantly make micro-counter-movements on the stick and rudder with ease out of pure instinct and flying experience.

Helicopters do use autopilot, like all the time. unless you are in the tiny ones. 
SAS and SCAS are basic submodes of autopilot systems. 

for OP. 
pedals are required during takeoff/flight/landing due to this Newton guy and his 3rd law. yes a system could be designed to counteract the input but it would have to factor in, load, wind, density ect so not as easy as it sounds and it would add unnecessary weight to the aircraft limiting payload. 

 the AP modes are still a work in progress and honestly I rarely use them and hand fly the bird.

[Oldahpilot]

13 hours ago, v2tec said:

The hover / trim modes are terrible. I flew many hours and got some experience with the trim, but when I fly straight to an waypoint, I can not rely on the attitude hold mode. After a few seconds/minutes the bird starts shaking more and more. If I don't react I am going to crash

If the aircraft is shaking more and more in level flight you're possibly exceeding it's aerodynamic or power limits. What's your TQ and airspeed indications at this point?

Limits will change with weight, altitude, temperature. Retreating blade stall, low rotor speed, jack stall, are good subjects to research.

[shagrat]

Am 29.6.2024 um 00:20 schrieb inexus:

Still waiting for the FM to be tweaked.... been waiting for a while now

Oh, so you really missed the 3 tweaks that already happened? How come?

Edited June 29, 2024 by shagrat

[kdfw]

On 6/28/2024 at 9:09 PM, bradmick said:

WIP. The real bird is as stable as the  DCS Kiowa and Shark.

i hope it will be made stable as the kw and implement fade in/out force trim release as the kw to prevent unnatural upsets.

[Blackhawk163]

So, I initially hated the FM. I found it too twitchy, couldn't pull off a quick stop to save my life. Surely this is a fault of the sim, right? Partially yes. The other part was setting the axis curves. Once I dialed that in, the game suddenly opened up to me and a lot of the moves I learned seemed to just work. I'm still fine tuning it, but once I get the damper kit for my winwing f16ex I shouldn't have to worry with the trim axis trying to kill me when set it to null  But yes, this module needs a bit of a gradual fade in/out when hitting that center trim button. 

[average_pilot]

Who would have said a few years ago that a Polychop helicopter would become the flight model of reference within DCS. Congrats Polychop.

[giullep]

initially was a nightmare for me, specially the moment at switch from cpg and to the pilot's seat...often I lost the control...but now I can fly smooth and I can switch from the seat to the seat without any problem..

 

today I love fly in the ah-64, and I hope that ED can improve the FM..

[Blackhawk163]

I was hovering today, just working on my axis curves, and I found it curious that my indicated speed was 6kts in this particular instance, but the actual movement was zero. No wind, no drift, just hovering in place hands/feet off everything. I couldn't have asked for a more perfect hover. Maybe too perfect  Anyone experience that?

[mcfleck]

I was hovering today, just working on my axis curves, and I found it curious that my indicated speed was 6kts in this particular instance, but the actual movement was zero. No wind, no drift, just hovering in place hands/feet off everything. I couldn't have asked for a more perfect hover. Maybe too perfect  Anyone experience that?

Sure that there was no wind set in the mission?
I experience these kind of issues only after quite long flights (1,5h plus) due to excessive INS drift without the GPS auto update feature.
This seems to influence the vertical speed indicator as well as the IAS. Also noticeable by the acceleration cue in the IHADS being way off in a stable hover.

[Blackhawk163]

6 hours ago, mcfleck said:

Sure that there was no wind set in the mission?
I experience these kind of issues only after quite long flights (1,5h plus) due to excessive INS drift without the GPS auto update feature.
This seems to influence the vertical speed indicator as well as the IAS. Also noticeable by the acceleration cue in the IHADS being way off in a stable hover.

Right in the beginning from instant mission hot start runway. I think I saved the .trk thinking how funny that was. 

 

Derp

 

Wind 256/06  pays to actually look at the instrumentation from time to time

Edited July 2, 2024 by Blackhawk163

[[DE] T-Bone]

17 minutes ago, Blackhawk163 said:

Right in the beginning from instant mission hot start runway. I think I saved the .trk thinking how funny that was. 

Could you please search for the track file and upload it? The phenomenon would be interesting to see.

[Blackhawk163]

25 minutes ago, [DE] T-Bone said:

Could you please search for the track file and upload it? The phenomenon would be interesting to see.

Pilot error 

 

So back on topic. A really tuned curve set is important with the game. I remember when I first demoed the module with a turtle beach velocity one controller I hated it. Then once I got the rest of my gear, I still hated it lol. I felt like I was constantly fighting the controls. Once I tuned the axis curves, a totally different experience. I think my curves are at about 20 for the Cyclic axis and 15 for the rudder controls. But I guess YMMV depending on your gear. 

 

Now if only my wingman would stay alive. 

[Ignition]

The DCS AH-64D is really easy to fly, I only experienced some issue with yaw while hovering, or more importantly when I engage the autopilots while doing a very stable hover, the helicopter goes crazy sometimes so I'm not using the AP very much.

Apart from these issues the helicopter is very predictable.

[audiman]

I'd also HIGHLY recommend the OH-58D Kiowa. It's like a very small and much simpler Apache, except it flies like an absolute DREAM compared to the Apache.

I love the Apache, don't get me wrong, but Polychop absolutely knocked the Kiowa out of the park and the overall flight model, and ESPECIALLY specifically the AI Pilot, feel far superior to the Apache.

I say that with no real life helicopter experience...so take it for what it is.

But the Apache currently requires VERY smooth inputs and you basically need to be in a very stable/trimmed Hover before engaging Attitude hold. And even then, sometimes it will wander and float around(sometimes violently) for a few seconds before it stabilizes.

Also if you use Altitude hold, make sure you do not move the collective at all, as it will sometimes disengage the hold mode even with the slightest drift of collective input from pushing buttons. This is my biggest problem, I have a Logitech X56 Hotas and the throttle(collective in this case) does not have enough friction to hold it still while I press buttons to operate various systems.

On 6/28/2024 at 5:18 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

1 - I'll let the been there, done that professionals answer this one, but you can actually do this in game right now if you're careful with the collective and you're not overweight. Apply collective gradually and she'll lift off, then as soon as weight is off the wheels, the SAS will keep the nose pretty well centered. Same goes for landing. Whether or not that behavior is correct, I can't say.

2 - I believe it's been stated several times that the FM, SAS/SCAS, trim, and hold modes are all still WIP with further fine tuning required.

The Ka-50 really can't be compared to the AH-64 as there's far too many differences between the airframes, control logic, etc. The Mi-24P is closer, but not by a whole lot. I'd suggest checking the OH-58D out as so far it has been highly regarded in realism and handling.

In all this, do keep in mind that we're still under an abstract layer as our controls aren't 1:1 with the real things either. For example, I use a throttle and gasp push for power! And side stick, too!

 

Edited July 3, 2024 by audiman
grammer/spelling

[jaylw314]

FWIW, if you have a stick that you can take the springs out of, like the VKB Neo's or the WW Orion (among others), it's pretty nice not having the no-spring force-trim release setting.  You don't have to worry about returning to center, you just have to remember to do it to reset the SAS, because there's no spring reminding you to do it.

Looking forward to the new spate of FF sticks coming out

[Rogue Trooper]

I love dead stick for the Kiowa and Gazelle, the sense of the stick being totally in sync with the rotors is superb, but I found it detrimental in the apache and other large helicopters but mostly the Apache and KA-50.

For sure the Apache has the agility to maintain superb sync between the stick and the rotors with a dead stick.... but when I pull this massive weapon in amongst ground obstacles to pop up and find a firing solution on targets, I will often start working the MPDs to gather information. Because the base of my MPDs are around knee height, I often found myself accidently knocking the cyclic and with a dead stick the cyclic deflects and holds the deflection which means the Apache is now increasingly accelerating into what I am hiding behind and requires pilot correction to kill the acceleration and re-establishing a hover.

In the Apache the dead stick is not for me.

Strong springs, no centre detent in the CAMs and let the SAS & SCAS look after accidental knocks whilst I start planning missile release.... like the real thing.

Force feedback will be awesome, best of both worlds.  

Edited July 4, 2024 by Rogue Trooper

[Schlomo1933]

Am 3.7.2024 um 13:56 schrieb audiman:

Also if you use Altitude hold, make sure you do not move the collective at all, as it will sometimes disengage the hold mode even with the slightest drift of collective input from pushing buttons. This is my biggest problem, I have a Logitech X56 Hotas and the throttle(collective in this case) does not have enough friction to hold it still while I press buttons to operate various systems.

 

I believe u are too heavy . And u are above 90% tourge. 
over 90% the altitude hold will kick off immediately when moving the collective. Under 90% u got more room for movement.

[Simonster83]

On 6/29/2024 at 12:49 PM, JetCat said:

A simulator is always much much more difficult to fly than the real thing, because you just see it´s movements on a flat 2D screen without any depth, and this is way more difficult than feeling it and see your surroundings in relation to the cockpit around you in 3D, and constantly make micro-counter-movements on the stick and rudder with ease out of pure instinct and flying experience.

VR helps a lot when flying helicopters in a simulator. I'm struggling with 2D screen, but no problems when flying in VR. I would like to try a proper motion rig with VR someday, can't afford one myself and no room in my house for it...

[Oceandar]

For me flying the Apache is far from hard but not enjoyable. I hate it's twitchy tail. Tuned my rudder curve little is helping but still hate it. Hope it gets better with future update.