w.i.p Trim Issues

[Chops]

As shown in the attached track, I am unable to trim the CH47 and maintain level flight.  I am using Virpil Controls and have trim and trim reset mapped to my HOTAS.  I don't have any duplicate control mappings and I am using the same trimming technique used in other DCS helicopters.

There are severe pitch oscillations after holding the attitude that I want, trimming, and releasing the stick.

What am I doing wrong here, or is it a bug?

CH-47F Pitch Trim Problem.trk

CH-47F Pitch Trim Problem 5.trk

Edited August 14, 2024 by Chops
Uploaded another track

[Yurgon]

Excellent tracks, thanks! I'm seeing the exact same thing that you're describing. I'm not sure if it's a bug or just the flight model being work in progress. As far as I can tell, you're not doing anything wrong.

[Chops]

Thank you for taking a look!

[Indianajon]

Which trim switches are you using? At the moment you want the stand alone trim and trim reset buttons and ignore the specific forward back left and right ones as they are part of the system that isn't implemented yet. Press the trim and reset to centre like other helos.  I'm finding as it speeds up you have to keep pulling back and retrieving, it is taking constant retrim but it does work. Also any shift in the collective will shift everything again. Lastly make sure you reset the trim on landing, otherwise it can go a bit crazy. Hope that helps.

[Nealius]

Same here on a Warthog wth 20cm extension. Set attitude for level flight, press and release trim button, release stick to neutral. Attitude holds for less than 5 seconds before the nose starts to down or up, at an exponential pace if not immediately corrected. It's impossible to do any admin at all with switches/MFD. Using the same trimming technique in the Huey, Hip, and Hind, I can go 100% hands off for at least 1 minute, and any deviation after that point is minor. I've never seen such an extreme nose-down tendency after trimming in any other helo modules. Typically for me it's nose-down, but occasionally it will go nose up. 

Edited August 14, 2024 by Nealius

[Rongor]

I think its just the current state of the flight model combined with mostly non-functional AFCS

[gottel]

exactly the description of my problem and the reason i can not fly the Ch-47

[Indianajon]

I think part of it is a change in mentality on how the chinook flies compared to other things. The trim resets the angle of the rotor mast so it is not trim in the true sense.  I have found after a little play I can get it trimmed out and hands off. At a certain speed I find I trim back, trim back, trim back until I get it on speed, any change in the collective changes it and you have to keep close eye on it. Then opposite in slowing down by trimming forward again and again and again.

[Nealius]

My nose attitude changes without any collective changes. Same TQ % and the nose still takes a dive.

[Slippa]

I have the same as IndianaJons experience with the trimmer.

It keeps catching me out once I’ve picked up a bit of speed too. Usually a nose-down but it drifts into a yaw easily as well. I can’t leave it alone for long at all. EA so we’ll see how it goes.

[Victor3]

Same experience here, Virpil CM3 base with 20cm extension and TM A-10 grip.

[Ben149]

Same here, Warthog Stick and Throttle

Also, @BIGNEWY, I hope you don't mind the ping, but would you mind clarifying why that's a controller issue/bug and not a software issue bug?
I've noticed it on other threads as well that have nothing to do with controller question or bugs, i.e. the VR View (Which seems fixed after the recent update, great work on that), but still, why does these categories exist if they're sorted wrong?

[Ben149]

No answer  . . .

[bigcountry]

I am having the same issue. I also get some wonky rudder left or right errors too. I dont even press the rudder at all lol

[DrGat]

Same issue with trim...resorting to letting Bob fly most of the time currently

[AirSenpai]

reporting in, today's update broke the TRIM RESET and i can't move the mouse for the gunners

 

[matze140]

The trim for pedals is completely broken. 
Pressing the trim button causes the pedals to apply the amount of deflection on top. Speaking: you got 10% deflection to the left, you press trim, the pedal in the Hook moves to 20% deflection. Pressing trim again adds another 10% on top and so on until you got full deflection while your hardware pedals are still at 10%.

before the patch the exact same behavior was with a FFB cyclic stick. 
now we got this on the pedals.

[Outlaw24]

6 hours ago, AirSenpai said:

reporting in, today's update broke the TRIM RESET and i can't move the mouse for the gunners

 

Same here, trim reset button inoperative.

[MAXsenna]

Doesn't do this for me. I do always hold the trim button though. 

The devs will ask for tracks to solve this. 

Edit: I stand corrected. Could reproduce. 

Edited October 1, 2024 by MAXsenna

[jonsky7]

On 9/30/2024 at 10:06 PM, matze140 said:

The trim for pedals is completely broken. 
Pressing the trim button causes the pedals to apply the amount of deflection on top. Speaking: you got 10% deflection to the left, you press trim, the pedal in the Hook moves to 20% deflection. Pressing trim again adds another 10% on top and so on until you got full deflection while your hardware pedals are still at 10%.

before the patch the exact same behavior was with a FFB cyclic stick. 
now we got this on the pedals.

 

Is this a FFB pedals specific problem?

As I'm pretty sure that's how it works in all the helo modules. That is of course if you have pedal trim turned on.

In the CH-47, we don't have that option (yet?)

So whenever you trim, release your pedals to centre.

 

[MAXsenna]

3 minutes ago, jonsky7 said:

 

Is this a FFB pedals specific problem?

As I'm pretty sure that's how it works in all the helo modules. That is of course if you have pedal trim turned on.

In the CH-47, we don't have that option (yet?)

So whenever you trim, release your pedals to centre.

 

I don't have FFB pedals. It's the only module this happened to me in. It did not happen in neither the Apache nor the Hind at launch. Pedals didn't get forced trimmed.
I use an FFB stick, and every time I trim, the pedals get out of wank.

[jonsky7]

Just been playing some more,  if I hold a little pedal input and repeatedly press trim, then absolutely all of that input gets added together.

But If I release the pedals after pressing trim, it's stays in the new centre position no matter how many times I press the trim button (TRIM CONTROL - T)

If I input say 10% left pedal, and some cyclic, press Trim control, and then add more cyclic trim, but with pedals released, only the cyclic gets new trim.

That's what's showing in the controls indicator anyway.

 

[MAXsenna]

Just now, jonsky7 said:

Just been playing some more,  if I hold a little pedal input and repeatedly press trim, then absolutely all of that input gets added together.

But If I release the pedals after pressing trim, it's stays in the new centre position no matter how many times I press the trim button (TRIM CONTROL - T)

If I input say 10% left pedal, and some cyclic, press Trim control, and then add more cyclic trim, but with pedals released, only the cyclic gets new trim.

That's what's showing in the controls indicator anyway.

 

Yeah, I see the same. It's very strange. I can "force it to the other side" though, By trimming or really pushing those pedals. Or is that if I trim when they're centered. Hmm.

[RealDCSpilot]

On 10/4/2024 at 3:31 AM, jonsky7 said:

Just been playing some more,  if I hold a little pedal input and repeatedly press trim, then absolutely all of that input gets added together.

But If I release the pedals after pressing trim, it's stays in the new centre position no matter how many times I press the trim button (TRIM CONTROL - T)

If I input say 10% left pedal, and some cyclic, press Trim control, and then add more cyclic trim, but with pedals released, only the cyclic gets new trim.

That's what's showing in the controls indicator anyway.

 

The problem is that they forgot to add trimmer modes for pedals. They now run on central trimmer mode which is totally counter intuitive to realistic helicopter flying.

Usually, each helicopter in DCS has trimmer options for pedals too in special options. Why they did forget this for the Chinook is a mystery for me. Atm the module is kind of unflyable for me.

[jonsky7]

6 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

The problem is that they forgot to add trimmer modes for pedals. They now run on central trimmer mode which is totally counter intuitive to realistic helicopter flying.

Usually, each helicopter in DCS has trimmer options for pedals too in special options. Why they did forget this for the Chinook is a mystery for me. Atm the module is kind of unflyable for me.

Last time I checked there are 3 modes for trim.

Default - The new centre position is applied immediately, and any input is immediately added to the new centre position.

Center mode- press trim, new centre position is applied but stick and pedals will have no input until returned to centre.

FFB - no idea, haven't got a FFB stick or pedals.

Pretty much the standard for all Helo's

 

But I get your point about not having separate options for stick and pedals.

 

Edit: oh I see, when FFB trim is set the pedals are centre mode? And there's no options for pedals. Got it!

Edited October 5, 2024 by jonsky7