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Posted

There is a lot of talk about all the bases in Afghanistan but I think we are missing a much more important piece: Afghan People

- One (better more) civilian male(s) and female(s) (with different liveries like with the insurgent pack)

- A civilian crowd to create busy market street (similar to the airshow crowd)

- Unarmed/civilian versions of the armed pickup trucks with cargo and/or people as payload and one or two civilian vehicles typical to Afghanistan (a motorcycle with two civilians/insurgents on it for example).

- An Afghan police officer as well as a typical Afghan police car.

- Afghan Military Soldiers (Rifle, RPG, LMG)

- A loaded pack donkey/mule and one with a rider. 

- A goat (with different liveries to create a herd)

- A few placeable Afghan buildings (those from the Caucasus look really out of place!)

 

I think those assets could really bring the Afghanistan map to life. What do you think

 

Here a few examples:

bundeswehrsoldaten-faisabad_foto_LEMO-F-

Afghanistan_town-774x500.jpg

an-afghan-boy-guides-a-herd-of-goats-thr

qrbgw2yliwc61.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&

 

Cheers DSP

  • Like 23
  • Thanks 1
Posted

I do think the  goat is the key asset here 🤣

Jokes aside, I fully agree. And why not unarmed "background" assets? As Dropship Pilot said, we already have airshow crowd (or is that asset part of a mod and not part of DCS?)

  • Like 5
Posted
12 hours ago, Dropship Pilot said:

There is a lot of talk about all the bases in Afghanistan but I think we are missing a much more important piece: Afghan People

- One (better more) civilian male(s) and female(s) (with different liveries like with the insurgent pack)

- A civilian crowd to create busy market street (similar to the airshow crowd)

- Unarmed/civilian versions of the armed pickup trucks with cargo and/or people as payload and one or two civilian vehicles typical to Afghanistan (a motorcycle with two civilians/insurgents on it for example).

- An Afghan police officer as well as a typical Afghan police car.

- Afghan Military Soldiers (Rifle, RPG, LMG)

- A loaded pack donkey/mule and one with a rider. 

- A goat (with different liveries to create a herd)

- A few placeable Afghan buildings (those from the Caucasus look really out of place!)

 

I think those assets could really bring the Afghanistan map to life. What do you think

 

Here a few examples:

bundeswehrsoldaten-faisabad_foto_LEMO-F-

Afghanistan_town-774x500.jpg

an-afghan-boy-guides-a-herd-of-goats-thr

qrbgw2yliwc61.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&

 

Cheers DSP

In general, more characters would be useful, including civilians, despite appearances, this is quite an important topic in every conflict. But first, let the announced new animations of soldier models appear, there are some that still do not have even walking animations (example JTAC) so fingers crossed!

  • Like 2

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Posted

Fully agree, although 15 years of DCS history shows that it is not going to happen. Even half baked WW2 Asset Pack paid module got stuck, most of the stuff that would make sense for Normandy and Channels map is not there. Afghanistan, Syria, Sinai all we have is just a bunch of disjoint units here and there. 

  • Like 8

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  • 1 month later...
Posted
Am 12.10.2024 um 22:25 schrieb Gunfreak:

We won't get unarmed people for obvious reasons. But I'm all for more variety in ground units.

We already have Deck crew and personnel to place, which is unarmed, as well. 

Apart from allowing to make the maps feel more alive, it would actually enable mission designers, to create meaningful conditions that reflect ROEs.

Especially in the asymmetrical conflicts in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq, the Rules Of Engagement, the need to ensure no harm to non-combatants, is a key tactical element!

...and if someone is concerned about "civilians": laying waste to whole city blocks, afghan villages and fields of crop, is not exactly the Geneva convention spirit, either, despite being simulated in DCS. 😉

  • Like 7

Shagrat

 

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Posted
57 minutes ago, shagrat said:

We already have Deck crew and personnel to place, which is unarmed, as well. 

Apart from allowing to make the maps feel more alive, it would actually enable mission designers, to create meaningful conditions that reflect ROEs.

Especially in the asymmetrical conflicts in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq, the Rules Of Engagement, the need to ensure no harm to non-combatants, is a key tactical element!

...and if someone is concerned about "civilians": laying waste to whole city blocks, afghan villages and fields of crop, is not exactly the Geneva convention spirit, either, despite being simulated in DCS. 😉

They are combatants on a warship.

So obviously not what we are talking about when discussing unarmed people on the Afghanistan map.

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Posted (edited)
Am 17.11.2024 um 23:17 schrieb Gunfreak:

They are combatants on a warship.

So obviously not what we are talking about when discussing unarmed people on the Afghanistan map.

You misunderstood, we can place, for example the unarmed sailor or a flight director, or a white/red/yellow shirt everywhere we like, as "unarmed" persons... or use innocent cows.

And as I said, we can level whole civilian city blocks, if we choose to.

That's why the "supposed" reasoning against "civilians" in a simulation doesn't make a lot of sense.

And if that's the concern, just make them without a death animation, but have the model register hit/dead events so we can simulate the challenges and restrictive nature of typical ROEs in such a theatre.

Currently it's mostly a decision along the line of "if it moves, shoot it!". I would like to make players actually think and consider potential collaterals or bomb impact ranges etc. to make COIN missions much more interesting and challenging.

Edited by shagrat
  • Like 3

Shagrat

 

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Posted
8 hours ago, shagrat said:

You misunderstood, we can place, for example the unarmed sailor or a flight director, or a white/red/yellow shirt everywhere we like, as "unarmed" persons... or use innocent cows.

And as I said, we can level whole civilian city blocks, if we choose to.

That's why the "supposed" reasoning against "civilians" in a simulation doesn't make a lot of sense.

And if that's the concern, just make them without a death animation, but have the model register hit/dead events so we can simulate the challenges and restrictive nature of typical ROEs in such a theatre.

Currently it's mostly a decision along the line of "if it moves, shoot it!". I would like to make players actually think and consider potential collaterals or bomb impact ranges etc. to make COIN missions much more interesting and challenging.

Because blowing up random carrier dudest/cows or blowing up some terrain pieces doesn't have the same problematic effect as some dude making a youtube video about blowing up a 1000 unarmed civilians with cluster bombs. Not really sure why you are having problem understanding such a simple concept.

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Posted

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Gunfreak:

Because blowing up random carrier dudest/cows (...)

"Random carrier dudes"?! Really? ...just, wow! 😳

  • Like 1

Shagrat

 

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Posted
Just now, shagrat said:

 

"Random carrier dudes"?! Really? ...just, wow! 😳

Yes carrier dudes don't look like civilians now do they? 

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Posted
Gerade eben schrieb Gunfreak:

Yes carrier dudes don't look like civilians now do they? 

So if we replace the carrier dudes with the airshow crowd as a stand in for people at an afghan market and drop cluster bombs on those, we are obviously fine, right?! 🤦🏻‍♂️

  • Like 1

Shagrat

 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

Yes carrier dudes don't look like civilians now do they? 

YMMV. There was a camera man shot by an Apache, and they mistook him for a man pad. So there's that. 

And seriously. Making liveries for the "carrier dudes" could make them look like civilians, no? The way videos are made today, fakes will be pretty indistinguishable from real ones in the near future, so it won't matter what ED does. Fakes will be made. 

Hopefully ED will just bite it, and release what we want. Airliners too, they're even more important if you ask me. 

Posted

+1 defo need more core game assets that are human beings, it would give us a bit more to work with when making missions

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

We do need some civilian wanderers so we can force more realistic ROE (not just if it moves, shoot it)

Even a re-skin/purposing of some deck hands would be a start (though some women & a child or two would flesh things out)

Also - for Afghanistan etc., - we have some fat cows, how about some skinny sheep & goats & a tent or two? (or even just a skinny brown cow with bigger horns)

Nomads_in_Badghis_Province.jpg

Edited by Weta43
  • Like 8

Cheers.

  • 1 month later...
Posted

I really like to place randomized civilian vehicles into my missions to make them more interesting. Those assets would really help with that - and make our maps much more alive.  

  • Like 1

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Posted
Am 17.11.2024 um 22:18 schrieb shagrat:

Apart from allowing to make the maps feel more alive, it would actually enable mission designers, to create meaningful conditions that reflect ROEs.

Especially in the asymmetrical conflicts in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq, the Rules Of Engagement, the need to ensure no harm to non-combatants, is a key tactical element!

...and if someone is concerned about "civilians": laying waste to whole city blocks, afghan villages and fields of crop, is not exactly the Geneva convention spirit, either, despite being simulated in DCS. 😉

THIS!

There is no unwritten morale rule for wargames/combat simulations to not have civilians in them. Consider e.g. Arma 3, Combat Mission (abstracted), Armored Brigade 2, Command: Modern Operations. In fact, a strong argument can be made that a wargame/combat simulation that pretends that civilians don't exist is even more insulting and harmful than actually having them in the game (and hence allowing people to commit 'war crimes' for 'fun').

Right now, a huge aspect is missing from DCS which makes CAS but also Deep Strike missions very unrealistic. There is literally zero backlash for you bombing the wrong building or annihilating the wrong pickup truck with your 30mm GAU-8.

So we not only need (more and) region-appropriate civilian assets, we also need the logic behind it to make missions actually meaningful.

@shagratobviously said it much better than I did but I wanted to butt in because it is wild to me that this aspect is not modelled at all in DCS. A proper implementation doesn't have to be ridiculously complex (again, look at Command: Modern Operations or Combat Mission) but it would increase the tension and complexity and variety of missions in a way that a whole new dimension would be added to the game (rather literally).

  • Like 2

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Posted

Just a quick note - You can create double sided Transparent Billboards with you own custom people on them.

EXAMPLE -

I have been using random generated ones to simulate arrival and departure of different Passengers

on DCS Railway Platforms for over 3 years now. They work very well and create a busy interesting railway station scene

I prefer it to the DCS planet of the Apes post-apocalyptic world with no people.

Its not rocket science just a flat oblong shape with a transparent double sided texture activated and deactivated by the train triggers using DML . 

 

billboard people 1.jpg

  • Like 3
Posted
vor einer Stunde schrieb waterman:

Just a quick note - You can create double sided Transparent Billboards with you own custom people on them.

EXAMPLE -

I have been using random generated ones to simulate arrival and departure of different Passengers

on DCS Railway Platforms for over 3 years now. They work very well and create a busy interesting railway station scene

I prefer it to the DCS planet of the Apes post-apocalyptic world with no people.

Its not rocket science just a flat oblong shape with a transparent double sided texture activated and deactivated by the train triggers using DML . 

 

billboard people 1.jpg

...and a collision model to register hits, a heat signature for the FLIR system and it would be nice, to have civilians, that do not stand out if in a scenario with insurgents.

The key is mostly to have the challenge, to identify combatants as legitimate targets and ensure to NOT drop bombs, rockets etc  near civilians. Even the standard insurgent model without any weapon would go a long way, to enable us to do this.

The aspect of "populating the map" is a bonus, but the simulation of ROE is definitely more important.

  • Like 6

Shagrat

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted
On 1/26/2025 at 1:06 PM, shagrat said:

...and a collision model to register hits, a heat signature for the FLIR system and it would be nice, to have civilians, that do not stand out if in a scenario with insurgents.

The key is mostly to have the challenge, to identify combatants as legitimate targets and ensure to NOT drop bombs, rockets etc  near civilians. Even the standard insurgent model without any weapon would go a long way, to enable us to do this.

The aspect of "populating the map" is a bonus, but the simulation of ROE is definitely more important.

Fully agree. Civilians are needed to create immersive missions, where the player has to think twice if or how he attacks a target. 

  • Like 4

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