waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[Hammer1-1]

13 minutes ago, alejandr0 said:

What kind of recourse did Steam users actually have? As far as I know, no refunds, no store credit, and no alternatives were offered ... unlike ED store customers. Were there any real options available that I might’ve missed?

I dont recall, I rarely ever shop Steam for DCS. Ironically, I have two Razbam modules on steam and DCS...none of which is the F-15E. I just recall there was an option there, but its up to the discretion of both Steam and ED. 

Edited Saturday at 08:00 PM by Hammer1-1

[alejandr0]

2 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I dont recall, I rarely ever shop Steam for DCS. Ironically, I have two Razbam modules on steam and DCS...none of which is the F-15E. I just recall there was an option there, but its up to the discretion of both Steam and ED. 

I wrote about it earlier...

[Hammer1-1]

I dont read every post.

[Oban]

3 hours ago, Vamp said:

The fact that you can literally go and ask one side any question you want and get a detailed response that is both straight to the point and coherent with the full picture they provide. On the other side you got pretty much nothing and constant signs of both vagueness and avoidance. Yet somehow I'm meant to believe that the first side is actively engaging in an anti consumer behaviour just because "you wouldn't get it and there's a hidden contractual thing that makes them unprofessional" that apparently only applies to one side that can't even get their statements together. I'm really starting to wonder if it's just a smoke and mirrors tactic especially when we're talking about companies that not that not so long ago used to made deals through a WhatsApp chat. How am I as a consumer that is going to lose their EA dream aircraft ment to somehow believe that every single thing which was laid out by RBs side, containing of some of the best in scene talent that has been left out to dry and financially and mentally pushed out of the scene, giving me in depth info about the entire BTS process and how it's now completely over, is a total lie without any proof claiming otherwise but some flash words.

You mean one side kept to the confidentiality clause and the other didn't and somehow you think the side that broke the agreement is in the right here? 

2 hours ago, Fran11player said:

Yes, they did. And they did not talk about future contracts as you say, check properly: "To avoid such issues in the future all 3d party are now required to make the game files available in case they are no longer able to support their product"

And where is the word "promise" in that sentence you highlighted? 

[Nightdare]

3 minutes ago, Oban said:

You mean one side kept to the confidentiality clause and the other didn't and somehow you think the side that broke the agreement is in the right here? 

I'm guessing RB told him why they weren't getting paid 

[shagrat]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb MiG21bisFishbedL:

That might not be entirely legal.

To be certain, I'm talking US law here and this might change internationally, but reverse engineering can be a complex legal issue. If you use any of RB's code to reverse engineer? Very much not legal and ED would find itself in the wrong. RB would be absolutely right to then seek legal recourse. It'd also set a horrible precedent for other third parties, regardless of outcome. That is something no one wants. The contract signed between RB and ED might even disallow reverse engineering all together.

Even if allowed, the case law on the books I'm referring to came from the late 80s and early 90s; the software is exponentially more complex. Even if legal, it could be a downright Sisyphean task. You may as well start from scratch.

You may want to read up on what "reverse engineering" is actually referring to. The result "can" infringe on patents, but it is by no means "illegal" in itself...

As you pointed out, the culprit is, if any NDA or other legal binding agreement between both parties forbids reverse engineering. 

[Oban]

1 hour ago, alejandr0 said:

Yes, Razbam deserves equal criticism... their communication and conduct have been extremely unprofessional. But the key difference here is that ED still holds the keys to the platform, and they’re the ones continuing to sell products and build community trust. So naturally, the responsibility to maintain that trust also falls on them... not just Razbam.

At the very least, ED should be honest about their limitations and stop leaning on vague statements like "we hope for a resolution." People deserve clarity, not deflection.

The honus is also on the 3rd parties to not break contracts and NDA/Confidentiality as well, it's a two way street.. 

Also to  add Don't use the community as a weapon, use your legals teams, like most companies do

5 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

I'm guessing RB told him why they weren't getting paid 

No winners here... 

[mondo]

1 hour ago, some1 said:

Very true.

From an outsider's perspective is seems that for both companies the best outcome would be to continue working together, sell more products, keep customers happy. Yet here we are. Razbam needs to go find other business venues, while ED is only starting to feel the brunt of customer dissatisfaction. Just imagine what will happen when they'll actually have to remove those modules from the game going forward.

What that initially presented itself as gross miscommunication between the two parties, has spiralled to a point when the best outcome we can realistically hope for is that one company leaves DCS ecosystem and ED takes over barely maintaining the existing modules? Something that Chizh and other ED developers on the Russian side of the forum initially dismissed? Yay.

Well done ED & Razbam, you've killed most of my "passion and support" for the game. Gone are the days of me buying more modules just to support DCS as a whole. Ah well, more time and money left to spend on other things. 

I'm certainly questioning buying third party modules now. First it was the WW2 pack, then the Hawk, years of several Razbam products simply not working properly and now they do, them all being depreciated. Why, as a long term customer, would I consider buying any additional third party modules when there's a more than a edge case chance that they won't be working or supported within just a few years? Regardless of the outcome of this, ED needs a clear statement on this and something in the small print of the contractual agreement it has with us, the customers.

[alejandr0]

4 minutes ago, Oban said:

The honus is also on the 3rd parties to not break contracts and NDA/Confidentiality as well, it's a two way street.. 

Also to  add Don't use the community as a weapon, use your legals teams, like most companies do

No winners here... 

Absolutely... both sides should be held accountable. No one’s giving Razbam a pass here. But when customers are caught in the middle, they don’t have legal teams or inside knowledge... they only have what ED and Razbam choose to tell them.

Calling for clarity isn’t “using the community as a weapon”... it’s asking for basic respect as paying customers.

[alejandr0]

6 minutes ago, mondo said:

I'm certainly questioning buying third party modules now. First it was the WW2 pack, then the Hawk, years of several Razbam products simply not working properly and now they do, them all being depreciated. Why, as a long term customer, would I consider buying any additional third party modules when there's a more than a edge case chance that they won't be working or supported within just a few years? Regardless of the outcome of this, ED needs a clear statement on this and something in the small print of the contractual agreement it has with us, the customers.

Well said. Absolutely agree with this.

[Esac_mirmidon]

i hope someone in charge is reading all of this before the next wipe out wave reaches.

Deleting things or hiding customers messages do no good to DCS future. Building confidence is a two way road

[alejandr0]

1 minute ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

i hope someone in charge is reading all of this before the next wipe out wave reaches.

May you be right.

[JuiceIsLoose]

CM’s, why did ED remove the Instagram posts with your latest announcement about the agreement and the whole 2.9 stuff?

Seems weird to delete that stuff?

[diego999]

I don’t care about the legal shenanigans between ED and RazBam. What concerns me is the idea that any of my beloved modules — which I paid for — could stop working at any moment. If that’s the case, I won’t be buying anything else.

Thanks for your passion & support.

[Kang]

9 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

i hope someone in charge is reading all of this before the next wipe out wave reaches.

Deleting things or hiding customers messages do no good to DCS future. Building confidence is a two way road

I am fairly sure nobody does. In all fairness, I don't envy the stalwart community managers who kind of have to read it - most of it is neither overly interesting nor entertaining.

If any actual new or pressing points get communicated on in a short summary, perhaps with a general statement about how restless, exactly, the natives are getting, we should consider ourselves lucky.

[Xtorris]

4 minutes ago, diego999 said:

I don’t care about the legal shenanigans between ED and RazBam. What concerns me is the idea that any of my beloved modules — which I paid for — could stop working at any moment. If that’s the case, I won’t be buying anything else.

Thanks for your passion & support.

Exactly. They can't sell the Hind, Hip, and Black Shark, to Russian customers anymore. They're having some kind of conflict with Boeing. Why should I invest my money, in a company who is having licensing problems, in regards to the modules they sell?

 

My last DCS related purchase was the F-4, on the day it released. I do not feel comfortable making any purchases from you guys. Sorry.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

36 minutes ago, shagrat said:

You may want to read up on what "reverse engineering" is actually referring to. The result "can" infringe on patents, but it is by no means "illegal" in itself...

As you pointed out, the culprit is, if any NDA or other legal binding agreement between both parties forbids reverse engineering. 

It's why I added the caveat this was going from my own experiences stateside. There's a lot of variables at play with it and it's a truly daunting task in this day and age.

It's a non-starter frankly.

6 minutes ago, Xtorris said:

They're having some kind of conflict with Boeing. 

That is the first time I've heard of this, where'd you find that?
 

[Esac_mirmidon]

6 minutes ago, Kang said:

I am fairly sure nobody does. In all fairness, I don't envy the stalwart community managers who kind of have to read it - most of it is neither overly interesting nor entertaining.

If any actual new or pressing points get communicated on in a short summary, perhaps with a general statement about how restless, exactly, the natives are getting, we should consider ourselves lucky.

If true this is sad.

Im a member of a virtual squad flying DCS since LOMAC times, most of us had 25 years flying this simulator and never have seen the reaction most of us are having. More than half of us are not buying anything else, part are just not flying anymore or moving to the "never said the name" simulator. People remaining still enjoy flying DCS together but loosing AGAIN valued modules that we fly on a daily basis is killing us as a Squad. 

Most people are not reading the forums here or playing MP, imagine when suddenly they lost 4 modules in a row. 

The magnitude of this cant be ignored. Someone need to do something.

[MicroShket]

So, after 9+ pages of discussion...

Спойлер

 

[Hammer1-1]

34 minutes ago, Xtorris said:

They're having some kind of conflict with Boeing. 

Can you point me in the direction where you found this info from? Id like to read into this a bit further...

[Tango3B]

7 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Can you point me in the direction where you found this info from? Id like to read into this a bit further...

You can certainly look for sources like reddit...there is much to be found over there. But take everything you read and/or see over there with a grain of salt...

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Just now, Tango3B said:

You can certainly look for sources like reddit...there is much to be found over there. But take everything you read and/or see over there with a grain of salt...

As far as that is concerned, you'll use so much salt that you'll give yourself hypertension.

[Tango3B]

1 minute ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

As far as that is concerned, you'll use so much salt that you'll give yourself hypertension.

True.  Somtimes, at least. But he will find what he is looking for...

[Tank50us]

5 hours ago, NEW is my Callsign. said:

If this same message was said by replacing RB with ED and Ron with Nick Grey this message would be quickly deleted due to the amount of misinformation and speculation being spread. Since this one benefits ED I doubt it will.

sorry the truth and the law are on EDs side.

RB is in the wrong here. They violated the contract, and got caught. But instead of just owning up to it, and agreeing to a new contract with ED... they threw a temper tantrum and stopped all work on the modules that people PAID FOR, and then AGAIN violated EDs contract by not handing ED the source code so THEY can continue the work on those modules and keep them working.

[Aapje]

12 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

RB is in the wrong here. They violated the contract, and got caught

Speculation presented as fact.

12 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

But instead of just owning up to it, and agreeing to a new contract with ED...

Apparently they did sign a settlement agreement, so this is a lie.

12 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

they threw a temper tantrum and stopped all work on the modules that people PAID FOR

Very misleading statement given that ED doesn't seem to have paid Razbam, while you are insinuating that they did get the money and owe something in return. Hard to imagine a less deceiving way to write this.

12 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

, and then AGAIN violated EDs contract by not handing ED the source code so THEY can continue the work on those modules and keep them working.

Again speculation. We don't know the contents of the contract. Given that Razbam have explicitly said that they will not do this, it seems very irresponsible to claim that this is fact.

So there doesn't seem to be any factual truth to your entire post. It is just one big heap of misinformation.