DCS, the REDFOR imbalance and Flankers

[cailean_556]

When I talk of imbalance, I don't mean giving each side weapons with the same range or capabilities. I mean in terms of options.

With the reveal (perhaps unintentional, but still) that a Rafale is coming to DCS, it appears that yet another BLUFOR aircraft is entering the DCS hangar. That's great new for DCS, especially for BLUFOR pilots, but leaves REDFOR feeling unloved (regardless of the many, legitimate reasons why).

The BLUFOR line up looks like this (in no specific order):
-F-100D Super Saber
-Tornado IDS
-F-15C (AIM-120 and AIM-9X capable)
-F-35A (AIM-120 and AIM-9X capable, GBU-12/31/32)
-Typhoon (Meteor, IRIS-T, AIM-120 and AIM-9L capable)
-Rafale (meaning MICA capable, at a minimum)
-C-130 (Release soon)
-A-7E
-A-6E
-A-1H Skyraider
-Kfir C2/C7

The REDFOR line up, as far as I am aware, currently looks like this
-MiG-29A (Released in EA at time of writing)
-Su-25A Grach (ED has hinted, but not committed to/announced officially)

With the Dynamic Campaign coming to DCS in the near future (release still TBC), anyone wishing to play 'REDFOR' in a Dynamic Campaign is going to either be a) relying on more sophisticated AI-only aircraft (such as the Tu-22M3, Su-24MR, Su-34 and [graphically hideous] Su-30) for much of its high-performance SEAD, anti-ship and all-weather strike capabilities, b) being unable to undertake particular mission sets (such as SEAD and all-weather strike) with the full-fidelity modules they have or c) relying on Flaming Cliffs 3-level aircraft modules - particularly the Su-25T and Su-25 - to conduct any form of guided/precision strikes or SEAD themselves.

REDFOR needs a Cold War-era Flanker.

The most obvious and "quick win" Flanker for ED to produce as a full-fidelity module is the Su-27S Flanker-B. It is essentially to the FC-3 Su-27, what the MiG-29A Fulcrum is to the FC3 MiG-29A: A full-fidelity module of the same aircraft, but with better presentation. The Su-27S was capable of unguided ground-attack - they were, by treaty, later 'upgraded' to Su-27P standard to remove their ground attack capability. If the MiG-29A Fulcrum was well-received, a full-fidelity Flanker is going to exceed that.

REDFOR needs a modern Flanker.

The Su-27S will scratch the Cold War itch however, when you place the MiG-29A and a hypothetical Su-27S into a more modern scenario - they show their age against post-2000s BLUFOR AMRAAM-capable (or equivalent) jets. The most capable/advanced full-fidelity 'REDFOR' jet currently is the JF-17 which doesn't even belong to a major 'Cold War' nation. To compete against BLUFOR in this manner, REDFOR needs a more modern Flanker.

To this end, I propose the Su-30MKK. 

-It is an early 2000s-developed Flanker.
-It is a non-canard (i.e. not MKI-derived) Flanker that doesn't have thrust-vectoring ("simplified" development).
-Uses the N001VE Mech radar (an export version of the Su-27s radar, modified for China specifically - for use with R-77)
-Despite being a Chinese-specific variant, it uses predominantly Russian weapons systems already in DCS.
-It is a two-seat Flanker intended for both air dominance and ground/sea attack, a REDFOR option for a Strike Eagle.
-Utilises R-73, R-27, R-77, Kh-29T, Kh-31, Kh-35 and Kh-59 in addition to Russian unguided and laser/TV-guided ordnance.
-It is capable of in-flight refueling - a first for a full-fidelity Russian-designed REDFOR aircraft.
-By having a second seat, it enables the development of an AI 'backseater' - which alone justifies a 'new module' and not a 'modernised' old one.
-It is capable of using and firing the AA-12/R-77 - making it the first full-fidelity REDFOR aircraft capable of doing so.
-The Su-30MKK is the base model for variants of the Flanker used by Vietnam, Uganda, Venezuela, Indonesia, China (obviously) and Russia.
-Russia uses the Su-30M2 (which is a 'Russianised' Su-30MK2 - a more advanced variant of the Su-30MKK) in its air force as a lead-in trainer.

Why I see the Su-30MKK as being more viable than the more advanced Su-30MKI (or an MKI-derviative) is because it's an older export aircraft, its systems are less capable than the Su-27SM, Su-35S, Su-30SM/SM2, Su-30MKI, Su-30MK2, J-11BS or J-16 - but it still provides options that aren't available to other REDFOR modules based on its intended role - air dominance and strike. It would draw massive interest due to having an AI-backseater (which ED is no stranger to, for helos - and ED could draw from Heatblur's experience in fixed-wing AI-backseaters to expedite development). The aircraft could be used (by players) as a stand-in for countries that use MKI-derived Flanker variants, including Russia.

While, "pound for pound" it might not be the exact equal of post-2000s BLUFOR aircraft, it is certainly a dramatic step-up in terms of full-fidelity capability for REDFOR aircraft enthusiasts.

Thank you for reading.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, cailean_556 said:

REDFOR needs a Cold War-era Flanker.

REDFOR needs a modern Flanker.

Yes, would be nice and is of course requested for years, every week but the reasons are still the same:

• redfor sells worse that US made aircraft
• docs and SME's are more hard to find and use as a source legally
• even looking for it may endanger ED - especially its russian/belarus employees

1 hour ago, cailean_556 said:

Su-25A Grach (ED has hinted, but not committed to/announced officially)

If it's in newsletter then it's official but mind it won't be full fidelity.

Moreover ED claims that they'll look how MiG-29A Fulcrum sales go and if it's good they'll reconsider doing more/modern redfor aircraft.

Edited yesterday at 06:21 AM by draconus

[MAXsenna]

Pretty sure we'll get both FF Su-25 and FF Su-27 if the MiG-29 sells well. So, do your part everyone!

I truly wish we could get more Cold War aircraft.

Oh, ok and BTW. You can add the F-8 to your list I suppose. Even if it hasn't been officially announced yet.

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Silver_Dragon]

7 hours ago, cailean_556 said:

The BLUFOR line up looks like this (in no specific order):
-F-100D Super Saber
-Tornado IDS
-F-15C (AIM-120 and AIM-9X capable)
-F-35A (AIM-120 and AIM-9X capable, GBU-12/31/32)
-Typhoon (Meteor, IRIS-T, AIM-120 and AIM-9L capable)
-Rafale (meaning MICA capable, at a minimum)
-C-130 (Release soon)
-A-7E
-A-6E
-A-1H Skyraider
-Kfir C2/C7

The REDFOR line up, as far as I am aware, currently looks like this
-MiG-29A (Released in EA at time of writing)
-Su-25A Grach (ED has hinted, but not committed to/announced officially)

With the Dynamic Campaign coming to DCS in the near future (release still TBC), anyone wishing to play 'REDFOR' in a Dynamic Campaign is going to either be a) relying on more sophisticated AI-only aircraft (such as the Tu-22M3, Su-24MR, Su-34 and [graphically hideous] Su-30) for much of its high-performance SEAD, anti-ship and all-weather strike capabilities, b) being unable to undertake particular mission sets (such as SEAD and all-weather strike) with the full-fidelity modules they have or c) relying on Flaming Cliffs 3-level aircraft modules - particularly the Su-25T and Su-25 - to conduct any form of guided/precision strikes or SEAD themselves.

REDFOR needs a Cold War-era Flanker.

The most obvious and "quick win" Flanker for ED to produce as a full-fidelity module is the Su-27S Flanker-B. It is essentially to the FC-3 Su-27, what the MiG-29A Fulcrum is to the FC3 MiG-29A: A full-fidelity module of the same aircraft, but with better presentation. The Su-27S was capable of unguided ground-attack - they were, by treaty, later 'upgraded' to Su-27P standard to remove their ground attack capability. If the MiG-29A Fulcrum was well-received, a full-fidelity Flanker is going to exceed that.

REDFOR needs a modern Flanker.

The Su-27S will scratch the Cold War itch however, when you place the MiG-29A and a hypothetical Su-27S into a more modern scenario - they show their age against post-2000s BLUFOR AMRAAM-capable (or equivalent) jets. The most capable/advanced full-fidelity 'REDFOR' jet currently is the JF-17 which doesn't even belong to a major 'Cold War' nation. To compete against BLUFOR in this manner, REDFOR needs a more modern Flanker.

To this end, I propose the Su-30MKK. 

-It is an early 2000s-developed Flanker.
-It is a non-canard (i.e. not MKI-derived) Flanker that doesn't have thrust-vectoring ("simplified" development).
-Uses the N001VE Mech radar (an export version of the Su-27s radar, modified for China specifically - for use with R-77)
-Despite being a Chinese-specific variant, it uses predominantly Russian weapons systems already in DCS.
-It is a two-seat Flanker intended for both air dominance and ground/sea attack, a REDFOR option for a Strike Eagle.
-Utilises R-73, R-27, R-77, Kh-29T, Kh-31, Kh-35 and Kh-59 in addition to Russian unguided and laser/TV-guided ordnance.
-It is capable of in-flight refueling - a first for a full-fidelity Russian-designed REDFOR aircraft.
-By having a second seat, it enables the development of an AI 'backseater' - which alone justifies a 'new module' and not a 'modernised' old one.
-It is capable of using and firing the AA-12/R-77 - making it the first full-fidelity REDFOR aircraft capable of doing so.
-The Su-30MKK is the base model for variants of the Flanker used by Vietnam, Uganda, Venezuela, Indonesia, China (obviously) and Russia.
-Russia uses the Su-30M2 (which is a 'Russianised' Su-30MK2 - a more advanced variant of the Su-30MKK) in its air force as a lead-in trainer.

Why I see the Su-30MKK as being more viable than the more advanced Su-30MKI (or an MKI-derviative) is because it's an older export aircraft, its systems are less capable than the Su-27SM, Su-35S, Su-30SM/SM2, Su-30MKI, Su-30MK2, J-11BS or J-16 - but it still provides options that aren't available to other REDFOR modules based on its intended role - air dominance and strike. It would draw massive interest due to having an AI-backseater (which ED is no stranger to, for helos - and ED could draw from Heatblur's experience in fixed-wing AI-backseaters to expedite development). The aircraft could be used (by players) as a stand-in for countries that use MKI-derived Flanker variants, including Russia.

While, "pound for pound" it might not be the exact equal of post-2000s BLUFOR aircraft, it is certainly a dramatic step-up in terms of full-fidelity capability for REDFOR aircraft enthusiasts.

Thank you for reading.
 

Remember:

• First: DCS World has no "Balance".
• Many of that projects has 3rd Party projects, no ED.
• 3rd party select projects by your criteria (normaly by countries).
• The Mig-29A by ED, has build with info the a old Warsac Pact country, no Russia.
• ED has faced a sales ban from certain companies in Russia (helicopter manufacturers), resulting in the removal of several modules related to red helicopters.
• As Wags claim on previous Q&A, the problem has the available info, SME, resources, time and licenses to make a FF Redforce aircraft, remember the problems by Deka to make a chinesse FF aircrafts.
• ED has none plans to a 2010/20 Redforce aircraft.

• About ED projects:
  • Su-25A FF has no claimed by ED yet, as a Su-27 FF, A-10A FF and other Mig-29 FC versions. Await ED share news about them.
  • Actual future ED projects
    • F6F Hellcat (Blue)
    • F-15C (Blue)
    • F-35A (Blue)
    • Future Helo (Blue and/or Red)
    • A6M5 Zero (Red)
• About 3rd Party projects:
  • Aerges
    • Mirage F-1M (Blue)
    • F-104G/TF-104G (Blue)
  • Airplane Simulation Company
    • C-130J (Blue)
  • Aviron
    • KFIR (Blue/Red).
  • Crosstail Studios
    • A-1H (Blue)
  • Deka Ironwork
    • J-8B PP (Red)
  • FlyingIrons Simulations:
    • A-7E (Blue)
  • HeatBlur Simulations:
    • Eurofighter Trench 1 (Blue)
    • A-6E (Blue)
    • F-14A (Early) (Blue/Red)
    • F-14B(U) (Blue)
  • IndiaFoxtEcho:
    • G.91R Gina (Blue)
  • Magnitude 3 LLC:
    • F-8J (Blue)
    • Mig-21bis 2.0 (Red)
  • MilTech 5 / PD:
    • Bo-105 (Blue)
  • Octopus-G
    • La-7 (Red)
    • Po-2 (Red)
    • Su-17 (Red)
  • Polychop
    • Future Helo (Blue?)
  • Red Star Studios:
    • Mig-17F (Red)
  • The Rafale has only a rumor, none 3rd party has claimed them yet.

Edited 23 hours ago by Silver_Dragon

[MAXsenna]

4 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The Rafale has only a rumor, none 3rd party has claimed them yet.

Wouldn't exactly call it a rumour the way we were told.  

That list is getting impressive!  

[Kang]

While I do not entirely disagree with the sentiment, I would like to remind everyone that BLUFOR and REDFOR are concepts that only live in head of your mission designer in question. I, personally, also enjoy certain scenarios that are reasonably inspired by the world I live in, but especially in multiplayer (the only place where 'balance' really means a thing) there is no rule against using the modules you want to use for the sides you want them on. The 'traditional' redfor folks have just been handed an all-new MiG-29. Long overdue, I'd say, but it's there. Use it for, like, twenty minutes, before insisting that you need something else.

Thus, what it boils down to rather quickly, is just your usual 'I would like to use this particular airframe' wish.

[Silver_Dragon]

6 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Wouldn't exactly call it a rumour the way we were told.  

That list is getting impressive!  

Those rumors about Dassault have been circulating since the time of the Mirage 2000C, over 10 years ago, and there has never been an official module with their name on it, nor any third-party French developer or similar project endorsed by them. So, until ED confirms it, they remain just rumors...

[twistking]

1 minute ago, Kang said:

Thus, what it boils down to rather quickly, is just your usual 'I would like to use this particular airframe' wish.

I would like to see the Venn diagram of people constantly wishing for and buying new aircraft modules vs the people who fly public PvP exclusively. Is it a perfect circle?

[Beirut]

8 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Pretty sure we'll get both FF Su-25 and FF Su-27 if the MiG-29 sells well. So, do your part everyone!
 

 

Steam sale starts soon, if the Mig-29 is 50% off, guaranteed I'll buy it. 

[Vampyre]

22 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Those rumors about Dassault have been circulating since the time of the Mirage 2000C, over 10 years ago, and there has never been an official module with their name on it, nor any third-party French developer or similar project endorsed by them. So, until ED confirms it, they remain just rumors...

 

 

[Silver_Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Vampyre said:

 

I reply them.... has a ED official press release about them confirm the module? And yes, I know all story... and "claims".

Edited 19 hours ago by Silver_Dragon

[Vampyre]

It's up to the mission maker to balance the missions. If you want redfor/bluefor balance with historical parity, the MiG-29 (and FC3 Su-27) will be pitted against aircraft available at the very end of the cold war (1985-1991). Its historical peers currently in the game are the F-14A/B, F-4E, F-5E, and Mirage F1CE/EE/BE. All of the other modern fighters are mid-1990's-2010's upgrades.

[MAXsenna]

Those rumors about Dassault have been circulating since the time of the Mirage 2000C, over 10 years ago, and there has never been an official module with their name on it, nor any third-party French developer or similar project endorsed by them. So, until ED confirms it, they remain just rumors...

Nah, I'm talking about NineLine's post of yesterday.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Ornithopter]

I don't really want a Flanker.  I mean, yes, I do, but not right now.  I want something that is appropriate to fight my Phantom II or my Mirage F1 in the 1970s or early 80s (obviously they can fight each other).  There is the MiG-21, but that is so out of date, I almost don't consider it viable anymore.  The MiG-19 is never going to be updated and will probably break.  Was looking forward to a MiG-23, but we know what happened with that. Maybe someday we will have a MiG-17.

 

[F-2]

MK2 would also mean air to ground modes and Chinese air to air missiles.

 

its also mostly an export jet which helps.

 

Radar range is still the same as the base flanker but RWR is much newer.

 

back seater cannot fire weapons but otherwise has full control of the radar.

 

[cailean_556]

9 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Remember:

• First: DCS World has no "Balance"

...Rest - Snip...

Thank you for raising that. Unsure if you realise, but you very conveniently left out the first sentence of my post which addressed literally this. When I say balance (technically I said imbalance), I mean in terms of options - both aircraft and capability, not equality. US weapons and systems still retain a qualitative edge in most areas of performance.

Thank you for adding the modules I had forgotten about (particularly the Mirage F-1M and F-104). I've seen no official mention of the Su-17. I remember seeing something about a picture where the silhouette was a Fitter, but I've seen nothing since that suggested a Su-17 was happening. If it does, great, that's a pretty powerful AG aircraft for REDFOR to work with and I welcome it. I would also discount the "MiG-21bis 2.0", I know very little about the scope of it other than it's something Mag3 said they'd do after the Corsair - but unless they're going to add LanceR or Bison capabilities, I see it as more of a remaster (ala F-5E) not a 'new' module. Even with your list, for every 'REDFOR' plane, there's still practically 3 'BLUFOR'. I also discounted anything not "jet age" - the WW2 planes are of little use in that context.

I will also acknowledge @Kang in agreeing that 'REDFOR/BLUFOR' are very much in the eye of the mission maker. When I say REDFOR I don't necessarily mean "bad guys": I perhaps wrongly assumed REDFOR/BLUFOR is universally understood. I suppose I could just as easily say NATO/Warsaw Pact or NATO/CIS in a post-Soviet setting...

I admit the Flanker is, despite me growing up very much in a 'Western culture' country, hands down my favourite aircaft. And the two-seaters? Whether it's the Su-27UB, Su-30, J-11BS or J-16, something about the profile and the aesthetics commands my attention. I don't know what it is, but they just speak to me in a language I didn't even know I knew.

However, I will very much deny it being a "I want/would like 'x' aircraft' in DCS". I do want a Flanker in DCS, absolutely, but not simply because I want it for me. The Flanker is an iconic, recognisable aircraft with a reputation of being formidable - for DCS not to have a full-fidelity Flanker module before an F-35A 5th Gen is...regardless of reason...disappointing. 

If it were up to me, I'd want a Su-30MKI... Capable of carrying Russian, Israeli and Indian munitions, a hybrid mix of Western and Eastern technologies, 3D thrust-vectoring, very powerful radar and true all-weather day/night capability. Can also be used as a stand-in for the Su-30SM/SM2/MKA/MKM. The ultimate Flanker... THAT is my 'wish'. That, however, is unlikely. Not zero by any means (I had our chances of a Typhoon and an F-35 - and a Rafale - as 'zero'), but low...

I will caveat that by saying there is an exceptional mod that adds the Su-30SM/MKI/MKA and MKM by Codename Flanker however, being a mod, it's not official and when there are updates...mods break... But even if that mod was to become an official module (and I'd buy it so fast the bank would have whiplash - if it were up to me, it would be an official module), I still feel the Su-30MKK has a place in the DCS ecosystem - it's different enough (no canards, no thrust vectoring, less capable strike capabilities - compared to the MKI, different radar) to still stand out and capable enough to still give those who fly against it a reason to be concerned.

The desire for the Flanker for DCS is about options and multirole capability in a PvP setting, and a PvE/Single Player setting - particularly when it comes to the Su-30MKK (unless you have a suggestion of an equally capable modern multirole 'REDFOR'/Warsaw Pact/Eastern aircraft from around 2000-2015?). In terms of full-fidelity modern multirole aircraft modules, Red/Warsaw/CIS side have only the JF-17, while for the same timeframe (2000-2015) Blue/NATO have the F/A-18C, F-16C, F-15E, AV-8B NA and F-14B currently, as well as a full-fidelity F-15C, Typhoon, Rafale (eventually) and F-35 in future...

In any Dynamic Campaign, or any post-2000s scenario, a player (or mission maker) opting to use Red/Warsaw/CIS full-fidelity aircraft is unable to operate in a multirole sense, with equivalent capabilities (except for the workhorse JF-17). No SEAD, no all-weather day/night, no precision strike, no ECM (except the MiG-21 - which isn't exactly modern in the post-2000s), no TGPs, no active-radar homing AAMs, no stand-off weapons. Even flying as BLUFOR/NATO against REDFOR/Warsaw/CIS - you're either flying against aircraft 30 years older than what you're flying, with equally older weapons systems, or you're flying against aircraft the same as yours to mimic that Peer vs Peer conflict (because there's no other real options) OR you're having to fly in/against AI (not as big an issue in PvE or Single Player) or modded aircraft.

At the very, very least, I'd love to see the Lock On-era Su-30 AI model be updated - I think we can all agree on that, right? 

 

 

[Gunfreak]

13 hours ago, Ornithopter said:

I don't really want a Flanker.  I mean, yes, I do, but not right now.  I want something that is appropriate to fight my Phantom II or my Mirage F1 in the 1970s or early 80s (obviously they can fight each other).  There is the MiG-21, but that is so out of date, I almost don't consider it viable anymore.  The MiG-19 is never going to be updated and will probably break.  Was looking forward to a MiG-23, but we know what happened with that. Maybe someday we will have a MiG-17.

 

I just want a MiG23 AI units that doesn't look like it's from a Duke nukem 3d game from 93. The 23 would be the main Soviet fighter for east block and arab nations until at least mid late 80s. But it looks so bad i refuse to use it. So I don't have the main soviet made fighter of the 70s to mid 85s. It really shouldn't take that long to make a AI unit. Same goes for the AI Su17/22 the main tactical fighter bomber for the east/arab forces from mid to end of Cold War.