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Flying the Ka-50 vs. Take on helicopters


Slazi
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So I have quite a number of hours in the black shark now, I absolutely love it! Flying it seems to make sense.

 

I bought ToH ages ago, and keep trying to enjoy it. But I just find it so frustrating! Every slight touch of my stick seems to send the helicopter crazy! The trim system is really strange. I can't even maintain level flight without using autohover. When I fly the test missions I end up spinning around in circles unable to control the helicopter after the slightest change in throttle.

 

Why is this game so much harder to fly than BS2!!!!!

 

Seriously, BS2 being so great has ruined so many other games for me!

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Why is this game so much harder to fly than BS2!!!!!

 

Coaxial rotors are much more friendly regards stability, since you don't need to compensate reaction force. Plus, for some reason BIS didn't implement autopilot, which is essential for choppers in about last 30 years.

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Plus, for some reason BIS didn't implement autopilot, which is essential for choppers in about last 30 years.

 

To me it is important to be able to complete my mission and land in one piece should my hydraulics and/or radar altimeter be shot to bits. For that to happen, it is essential to practice flying the Ka-50 without SAS (or autopilot as some call it).

What flying ToH is like now, I don't know; I never followed ToH beyond the Beta stage due to the horrendous scripted behavior of the rotor systems and flight envelope.

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For that to happen, it is essential to practice flying the Ka-50 without SAS (or autopilot as some call it).

 

Yes, but for ka-50 disabling at least 1 of 3 main channels is an emergency situation and strongly not recomende during regular flight, except practice or damage.

And with ToH it is like i fly all the time in "emergency situation".


Edited by ZMEY-HS-
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So I have quite a number of hours in the black shark now, I absolutely love it! Flying it seems to make sense.

 

I bought ToH ages ago, and keep trying to enjoy it. But I just find it so frustrating! Every slight touch of my stick seems to send the helicopter crazy! The trim system is really strange. I can't even maintain level flight without using autohover. When I fly the test missions I end up spinning around in circles unable to control the helicopter after the slightest change in throttle.

 

Why is this game so much harder to fly than BS2!!!!!

 

Seriously, BS2 being so great has ruined so many other games for me!

 

 

My feelings exactally. I am in the same boat.

 

 

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Although I have no personal experience with ToH, I have to say:

 

1) This shows us how stable the coaxial helicopters are in comparsion with their conventional counterparts. If we have people on this forum saying things like "The Shark is crazy, it's trying to kill you", I dont want to hear them when (if) DCS:UH-1 comes out. :)

 

2) From my previous experience with various aviation games / sims, I can say that "game" helicopters are much harder for me to fly than the properly simulated ones (Funny, shouldn't it be exactly the opposite?). Maybe because the "game" helos fly much more like paper planes than actual machines made from metal. Too little inertia, super sensitive controls... you know that. I still tend to over-correct and cannot steady the helo.

 

In BS, on the other hand, the machine really responds like it weights several tons, how do you expect in real life. Too much easier to get the "feel" for it. At least for me.

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With the DCS Huey we will get a conventional design heli, so comparisons can start again.:D;)

 

I can't even maintain level flight without using autohover. When I fly the test missions I end up spinning around in circles unable to control the helicopter after the slightest change in throttle.

Welcome to the club!:smilewink:

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Can't wait for another helicopter to fly in the DCS world.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who seems to have had problems with ToH. I may have another go at it and see if dampening all the controls makes it playable, but I'm not holding out much hope.

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You don't exactly need the manual to take off and land in the BS either. Of course, if you want to use it as an effective platform, you need to, but the basics are comparatively *very* easy.

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Prophetic words :D

 

1) This shows us how stable the coaxial helicopters are in comparsion with their conventional counterparts. If we have people on this forum saying things like "The Shark is crazy, it's trying to kill you", I dont want to hear them when (if) DCS:UH-1 comes out. :)

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Although I have no personal experience with ToH, I have to say:

 

 

2) From my previous experience with various aviation games / sims, I can say that "game" helicopters are much harder for me to fly than the properly simulated ones (Funny, shouldn't it be exactly the opposite?). Maybe because the "game" helos fly much more like paper planes than actual machines made from metal. Too little inertia, super sensitive controls... you know that. I still tend to over-correct and cannot steady the helo.

 

x2

 

Don't own ToH, does it allow you to add curves to your axis? I struggled with "over sensitive" (to a lesser degree then in arma) controls in the ka-50 til i "found" that setting.

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I bought ToH ages ago, and keep trying to enjoy it.

 

That pretty much sums up my own experience as well, though I haven't flown ToH in a long while and have missed out on some of the updates they delivered.

 

Anyways, when I flew it, after a while I started to get the hang of it (at least a little better than in the beginning), but landing the MD500 (or whatever its ToH equivalent is called) required more patience than aerial refueling the A-10C for the first time.

 

Lacking any RL experience, I really can't tell whether BI got it right and flying these choppers is just that difficult or whether they're overdoing (or possibly underdoing) some of the effects that act on rotary wing aircraft.

 

However, flying the Ka-50 even with all SAS channels disengaged feels like a piece of cake compared to the ToH MD500 (unless I'm also missing the tail and have a burning engine and maybe an incoming SAM or two...) :joystick:

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I think I know what the problem is. It's the trim. In BS2 the helicopter tries to revert to the trim attitude, the body seems to have weight. In ToH stick seems to igore movement back towards the center. If you steer left, center the stick, then steer the same amount left again it will be double the power of the original movement.

Does that make sense? Its as if the stick in the helicopter can only be increased by moving the joystick away from the center.

 

This is from memory, but thats what it feels like.

 

- It's also very difficult to see any of the instruments, and with no artificial horizon (and no feelings of gravity) its almost impossible to imagine how your helo is positioned in the air.

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  • 2 weeks later...

ToH was crap. I say again, it's total rubbish.

That game has lots of potential but BIS obviously wanted to create just another arcade flight sim. Anything flying in ARMA II is total crap too. It's only playable as soldier with ACE and ACRE. Otherwise BF3 is a way better soldier simulator...

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in the small amount of cockpit time I've ever had in a real Heli, I remember that about 20mm of stick deflection is the MAXIMUM input you would ever make..

Small heli's are very very sensitive....allthough I agree that TOH is a PITA to fly, I think part of it is that controler input is too innacurate..

 

at least ion the Shark we have dampners and mass to smooth out our curves

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OK I will chime in here... TOH is not rubbish.. Really it isn't.. (I say this because I nearly threw it out the window when I first tried it) Just touching the controls caused the thing to veer right or left uncontrollably and ABSOLUTELY UNFLYABLE... I finally found the solution to this issue..

 

REMOVE ALL AXIS MAPPINGS in TOH and remap them one at a time to your controllers. Remove/Clear/Delete EVERYTHING as far as the helicopter controls go... Once you have remapped them manually to your controllers TOH is flyable. It isn't anywhere near as good as BS.. Not by a long shot, but it IS flyable and can be some fun if you want more of a game than a simulator..

 

And just for the record I have flown real helicopters and BS is damned close to the real thing... Close enough that I used it as a training tool while taking lessons... TOH is not as close to the real thing but is better than most games... the biggest issue I continue to have with TOH is determining how close to the ground you are... The graphics are a bit lame and makes it very difficult to judge your height and this makes landing pretty tough. Landing a helicopter is tough enough with all the controls and forces working at once... Making it that much tougher because you can't tell how high you are really sucks..

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

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REMOVE ALL AXIS MAPPINGS in TOH and remap them one at a time to your controllers. Remove/Clear/Delete EVERYTHING as far as the helicopter controls go... Once you have remapped them manually to your controllers TOH is flyable.

 

Sorry , i dont understand , can you explaine ? Thanks , i would like to fly for fun also in TOH...but at the moment is frustrating , thanks man

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I am at work right now so i can't really fire it up and give exact info, but go into the setup for your controllers and look at what is currently mapped for your joystick, pedals and collective. I'll bet that there are multiple entries for all of these functions... Keyboard and mouse commands come to mind... Delete them all. Delete all keyboard, mouse etc. commands for your joystick, rudder and collective. then go back in and map all of these functions to your specific joystick, rudder and collective hardware.. It is a tedious process but once you have them cleared and then mapped properly you will have a useable game... ;O)

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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Make sure you have no dead zones in axis setup, and all axis are linear. Install latest updates and enjoy flying light heli (its modeled after rl counterpart, but still its fictional airframe). I enjoyed toh a lot, especially practicing autorotation. I have never flown rl helikopter, nor have I tried black shark (twin rotor assault choppers are just not my thing at all), but according to some rl pilots light models physics can be considered realistic even if they lack vortex ring simulation (was supposed to be added with latest patch, never got introduced though). All in all I'd recommend it over bs for pre uh1 training. Of course get dodo 206 for fsx if you can, but still toh models classic airframe which introduces torque induced yaw etc and will make you learn to react for blade pitch changes with anti torque rudders. Btw toh has much better graphics than dcs. Just load arma maps into toh and enjoy the best ground visual level ever available for a helicopter simulation.

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Same boat here, Black shark is the one module I don't have for DCS but I looked forward to toh for months while I waited for my new pc, I finally installed it the other day and played for about 10 mins before I got frustrated and left incredibly dissapointed. I couldn't even do the most basic take off training lesson as the collective doesn't move for ages as I slowly increased throttle and then all of a sudden it shoots up and you fail... I guess il have to spend my next day off trying to set up all of the controls... DCS P51 will be next which is far too sensitive on the X52 pro at least...

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Make sure you have no dead zones in axis setup, and all axis are linear. Install latest updates and enjoy flying light heli (its modeled after rl counterpart, but still its fictional airframe). I enjoyed toh a lot, especially practicing autorotation. I have never flown rl helikopter, nor have I tried black shark (twin rotor assault choppers are just not my thing at all), but according to some rl pilots light models physics can be considered realistic even if they lack vortex ring simulation (was supposed to be added with latest patch, never got introduced though). All in all I'd recommend it over bs for pre uh1 training. Of course get dodo 206 for fsx if you can, but still toh models classic airframe which introduces torque induced yaw etc and will make you learn to react for blade pitch changes with anti torque rudders. Btw toh has much better graphics than dcs. Just load arma maps into toh and enjoy the best ground visual level ever available for a helicopter simulation.

 

OK my turn to ask a question.. How do you load Arma maps into TOH? (I am really interested in this as the graphics quality is my only real beef with TOH at this point and if graphics can be improved I will be a happy camper indeed..)

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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