Aircraft Visibility

[Serp Supreme]

Okay, so it seems like a toss up 50/50 for smart scaling. I'm personally for it, however, the fact that it changes the size of the aircraft really bothers me as well as messes me up when dogfighting.

 

Perhaps as an alternative, we could try sub-pixel rendering like in VBS3?

 

What it seems to do is just force things that would normally be out of viewing range in DCS to be forced to show up at ranges which you'd still be able to see them in real life.

 

Regardless of what happens I think something of some sort should be done. Think about it, when an airliner flies over you at some 40,000 feet, you're still able to see it from the ground.

[Cali]

Oh remember when people use to dot hunt in lomac and 1.1, how is this much different Mustang?

[SDsc0rch]

i would be "for" it

 

we have limitations - these computer monitors

 

you want the "simulation" to simulate what its like (as much as possible) in real life

 

seems academic to me..

[Harpoon]

Okay, so it seems like a toss up 50/50 for smart scaling. I'm personally for it, however, the fact that it changes the size of the aircraft really bothers me as well as messes me up when dogfighting.

 

Perhaps as an alternative, we could try sub-pixel rendering like in VBS3?

 

What it seems to do is just force things that would normally be out of viewing range in DCS to be forced to show up at ranges which you'd still be able to see them in real life.

 

Regardless of what happens I think something of some sort should be done. Think about it, when an airliner flies over you at some 40,000 feet, you're still able to see it from the ground.

 

That's exactly what we're talking about right here, not statically magnifying airplane size.

[Pizzicato]

I'm totally 100% for it. Object visibility (or the lack thereof) always feels like one of the biggest shortcomings in DCS from my perspective.

 

If it's handled correctly, smart scaling should enhance not detract from the overall realism of the experience.

[KaspeR32]

+1 for Smart Scaling.

 

I think this sums it up perfectly:

 

...zoom in and have a narrower than realistic FOV, but be able to see details, or zoom out and have a realistic FOV, but no details...

 

At a realistic "zoom" we lose FOV. So right now to scan the sky, we have to look to a certain area, then zoom in. Don't see anything? Zoom out, look at another part of the sky, zoom back in. That's kind of annoying.

 

Even for small things like, if you're not "hunting for targets" but just want to fly formation with someone, it's so easy to lose them in the sky. I tried flying with my brother who doesn't have Track IR, it was nearly impossible for him to find me in a P-51.

 

We have take-off assist for players to make the game more approachable, why not Smart Scaling?

[Scrim]

Just to make a point I thought of today: After not doing DCS for quite a bit now, I ran an old A-10C mission. Getting used to the layout, the small HUD text and HOTAS setup took a while, but what really made its mark was the attempts at strafing. Due to the lack of smart scaling, it quickly turned into shambles. To actually see a rather large target, like 4 tents or half a dozen parked vehicles, I had to chose between labels, or using the TGP to set up strafe runs. Neither of that is a particularly realistic thing to do (before anyone points it out, yeah, there's plenty of films of A-10s using TGPs for strafing, but that's COIN warfare where misplaced rounds can kill civilians or friendlies. In a conventional war where there's no friendlies anywhere close, you're just not going to use a TGP for that as it takes far too long. Nor can you assume that one will be available for every single plane).

 

The A-10 is basically a flying cannon, so the inability to do proper strafing without relying on unrealistic means is quite flawed.

[SkateZilla]

I dont like Smart Scaling, however Sub px rendering might be a good thing to use.

[Tvol]

War Thunder is an example of a game that does this right (or at least reasonably well). When you start a match, you can see the enemy's aircraft waaaaaaay out in the distance, climbing to the sky just as you are. DCS...not so much.

 

The point is to correct the failings of the displays that we're stuck using.

[Pizzicato]

Playing with the new F-86 Sabre last night really drove this issue home for me. There's a fantastic many vs many furball mission included with it, but it's utterly impossible to see the enemy Migs beyond point blank range.

 

I ended up having to use labels, which I hate as they totally destroy immersion for me. :(

 

Smart Scaling or another similar approach feels desperately needed, IMHO.

[SDsc0rch]

you know - that's a good point!

 

i can't get an aspect on the migs - goes to show how much modern radar/HUD help (i'm spoiled on the F-15!)

 

but yeah, you can't see the migs beyond a certain point - and moving at jet speeds, you really need to get an idea which way these guys are pointing and what their wings are doing in order to manuever - otherwise it devolves into pointing your nose right at them and then getting into a decending turning match...

[Bucic]

I dont like Smart Scaling, however Sub px rendering might be a good thing to use.

Pretty much two implementations of the same solution. BTW, doesn't anti-aliasing work for the purpose in DCS? Does DCS disable any sub-pixel objects from the rendering?

 

In any case anyone dismissing the importance of smart scaling or similar solution doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Scrim]

Is a dev going to bother commenting on this?

 

I gotta be honest, especially with the advent of the Sabre, this is just getting more and more important. Even if the AI hadn't been übermensch in MiG-15s, dogfighting them still wouldn't have been the least fun. I was maybe 800m away from him at times, and I could not for the world see him. The only alternative is to use labels. Either the default ones, or the modded black dots, but even with those you still can't really see him well, and you definitely can't see which direction he's traveling. There were many times when I thought I could sweep down on him, only to too late discover that he was actually pulling up, and not flying level.

 

I mean seriously ED, you've actually gone head first into a WW2 project. How on Earth do you think people will be even slightly attracted to it? It's dogfighting, not BVR. If you can't even see planes that are close to you, how is it going to be even remotely possible to have people enjoy this?

[Slazi]

I'm down with this. Seeing things can be a nightmare on dcs. I'm guessing EDGE will have this?

[Bucic]

It's not like it is the first time someone brings this up. See this thread for example http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=110718&highlight=visibility

I also recall that there has been a thread with a proper test setup of a dozen of planes placed every kilometer or so, for easy testing. I can't seem to find it but you can quickly create such a mission yourself. I don't remember the conclusion of the said thread neither.

 

I'm still not entirely convinced this requires an implementation like smart scaling. Doesn't it all come down to LOD issues? Can anyone edit configs to crank up LOD parameters to something like 10 km and then re-check?

[SkateZilla]

Is a dev going to bother commenting on this?

 

 

It's been discussed before, multiple times already.

[doveman]

I wonder if anyone's got a link to some video footage from a cockpit, showing what the pilot sees at the distances we're talking about IRL?

[airdoc]

I wonder if anyone's got a link to some video footage from a cockpit, showing what the pilot sees at the distances we're talking about IRL?

 

If you are looking for research and RL data instead of just speculation, then have a look at my first post in this thread, and try to download and go through the whole paper. It's generally not easy to find hard data on this matter, and by going through the various charts one can appreciate how complicated the issue of aircraft detection is IRL.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=119885

 

btw, i hope that the visibility issues are improved after EDGE regardless of the method adopted. Right now DCS is the only sim where i find it extremely hard to spot contacts, even at distances of 1-2 miles.

Edited July 30, 2014 by airdoc

[NineLine]

I wonder how it will be with EDGE and the new map... really cant imagine seeing anything change until thats in place for sure...

[doveman]

If you are looking for research and RL data instead of just speculation, then have a look at my first post in this thread, and try to download and go through the whole paper. It's generally not easy to find hard data on this matter, and by going through the various charts one can appreciate how complicated the issue of aircraft detection is IRL.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=119885

 

btw, i hope that the visibility issues are improved after EDGE regardless of the method adopted. Right now DCS is the only sim where i find it extremely hard to spot contacts, even at distances of 1-2 miles.

 

I was really looking for a video showing what a pilot sees IRL but thanks for the link, interesting information.

[Mar]

I was really looking for a video showing what a pilot sees IRL

 

Sorry, but I can't help laughing. :megalol:

[aceviper]

Laughter is not at all a bad beginning for a friendship, and it is far the best ending for one.

Oscar Wilde

[doveman]

Sorry, but I can't help laughing. :megalol:

 

You can get pills for that ;)

[NineLine]

Ok, it was brought up with ED and this is their official response:

 

Within my remembrance it discussing arose several times.

 

The main problem is that player with different screen resolution can see objects at different distances. The big displays (2560х1600) to allow see more at the same FOV. It is pure physics. But the same issue we can see in the other games.

 

If we artificially increase LOD sizes, having optimized for small displays, but for big displays all the same it will be visible farther.

 

This issue become smoothed over by existence of an adaptive zoom, allowing to narrow a FOV and to see much farther even on small displays.

[doveman]

Ok, it was brought up with ED and this is their official response:

 

Well to that I would say, cater for the majority of players who will be using 1080p monitors and who need something like smart scaling, even if it does give those with bigger monitors an advantage (but maybe they also need smart scaling, I couldn't say as I don't have an UHD monitor). They already have an advantage anyway if they can see things that 1080p users can't, so it doesn't seem like a good justification for doing nothing and might in fact even things out a bit.