F-18 grip, WARTHOG compatible

[agrasyuk]

agrasyuk,

Oh, but you know this Croatian guy lol for his product had materialized.

What is written is not what might be but rather what is.

well, no answer as two what you were referring to. unless Milan and OP happen to be same person what is written stays to be of what might be. as such future tense probably should be used more here.

 

... I agree the MFG's don't look the part but their functionality is unparalleled.

 

their functionality is very much paralleled by other custom makers. one could say even surpassed since the MFGs are not made out of metal unlike the others. they are indeed way ahead of saitek though and probably a good by for those not concerned with material or WWII styling .

[POLARIS1]

F-18 grip, WARTHOG compatible

 

agrasyuk,

Since someone else answered you I didn't find it necessary to reiterate it.

Milan is from Croatia and he is the one I was referring to.

As for the material not being metal and its significance...that had been debated upon in a long thread and the end enlightenment of that debate was that if metal has any advantage over the composite material Milan uses it's negligible.

Besides the material there is also the electronics part of the pedals and the exceptional accuracy and credibility, as well as endless options of customizations.

 

But...I'm afraid you completely missed the point of my post...it's about less words and a more end result product.

I'm sure it is not easy and the possibility of a dedicated stick for each module, especially the Hornet, is astounding.

Still..I think it would benefit this project to spread less words and to materialize a product worthy of the hopes and wishes of the community.

Edited December 14, 2015 by POLARIS1

[The LT]

This coming from a guy that owned the original Thrustmaster, then the Top Gun version (were they the same??), F16/TQS, then the Cougar, and now the Warthog. So don't think that I'm bashing TM for the sake of bashing.

 

So you forgot how crappy the F16/TQS combo was compared to the Warthog? I still have mine...

[Sokol1_br]

As for the material not being metal and its significance...

 

And not being metal at longer terms don't risk happen this: :D

 

http://4put.ru/pictures/max/1130/3471561.jpg

[hansangb]

So you forgot how crappy the F16/TQS combo was compared to the Warthog? I still have mine...

 

Oh it's better. Hence all the mods that came out. But I also recall it being much cheaper. At at the time, it was still considered top of the line - as I recall.

 

But by all accounts, TM should have shipped with better giimbal for the price.

 

But clearly, the lack of better gimbal didn't stop me or others from buying it. :D

[hegykc]

it is currently the finest stick mechanism that exists today.

 

I am sorry, but that simply cannot be true. All due respect, it might be your opinion, but as far as facts go, the exact opposite is true.

 

Ball bearing vs. direct contact friction, ball bearing wins every time. Warthog does have very fancy electronics and 3d sensor which compensate and make things smoother.

 

But as far as mechanics go, Warthog has the worst possible mechanical solution for a gimbal. And I mean that literary, the worst solution possible. That is not my opinion, that is physics fact. Best solution for a gimbal, ball bearing. Worst solution, direct contact friction. There's no big science behind it, it's as simple as that.

 

Overall, it might be the best stick (for now). And coupled with the powerful 3d sensor that crappy gimbal does work good. But looking at the mechanical gimbal by itself, it is crap.

 

What you're saying is "I have a million $$$ sled in my garage and it is the smoothest ride ever made". Sorry Santa, you might love that sled, and it might be a really good ride, and served you well all those years, but a 200$ 1985 Yugo will beat the crap out of it in the smoothness department. Again, fact. Wheels beats sleds every time.

 

Our warthogs (I have 2), are sleds, with some very fancy and powerful sensors. This doesn't have anything to do with my project, it's just how it is.

Edited December 19, 2015 by hegykc

[Flamin_Squirrel]

It's not just the gimbal that's the problem. There is a plastic collar which moves when the stick is deflected. This collar sides up and down on 4 metal pins - again direct contact. The pins were also misaligned so they pinched the collar, stopping it from moving freely. I found this to be the biggest source of friction in my stick. This could have been solved for $2 by installing linear bearings.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Flamin_Squirrel

[Mr_Burns]

Hey hegy, have you got your new machines up and running yet? Any update on your progress?

 

I'm tempted to buy an X55 as I can't justify the hog to my wife, will you be able to make a connector for that?

 

Thanks

[hegykc]

What I'm trying to say is that a stick can be good, and also have parts of it that are very, very bad. All I'm doing is calling out the bad parts. It is still a good stick, but up until very recently it was also the only high end stick and being the best doesn't really mean all that much when there's no competition at all.

 

Google "VKB Mamba" or "BRD joystick" to see how a proper mechanical gimbal is supposed be:

Regarding mechanics, they are both miles ahead of the warthog. But they're far from perfect, especially regarding price.

 

I will call out bs when I see it, and I expect to be treated the same back. You question some of my plans, doubt or have any criticism, bring it on. As long as the discussion is civil and respectful, I don't see a problem.

Edited December 20, 2015 by hegykc

[hegykc]

Hey hegy, have you got your new machines up and running yet? Any update on your progress?

 

I'm tempted to buy an X55 as I can't justify the hog to my wife, will you be able to make a connector for that?

 

Thanks

 

My grips will be X55 and warthog compatible, after I prepare my own base. I don't want to drive my customers to my direct competition. I'm already doing them a huge favor as is.

[Davee]

What I'm trying to say is that a stick can be good, and also have parts of it that are very, very bad. All I'm doing is calling out the bad parts. It is still a good stick, but up until very recently it was also the only high end stick and being the best doesn't really mean all that much when there's no competition at all.

 

Google "VKB Mamba" or "BRD joystick" to see how a proper mechanical gimbal is supposed be:

Regarding mechanics, they are both miles ahead of the warthog. But they're far from perfect, especially regarding price.

 

I will call out bs when I see it, and I expect to be treated the same back. You question some of my plans, doubt or have any criticism, bring it on. As long as the discussion is civil and respectful, I don't see a problem.

 

I would really like to see a gimbal like this that would retrofit easily into the existing Warthog stick. Pull the TM one out and replace it with this one.

[cichlidfan]

I would really like to see a gimbal like this that would retrofit easily into the existing Warthog stick. Pull the TM one out and replace it with this one.

 

You want to fit that into the black metal cylinder? I am fine with putting my Warthog stick on hegykc's base.

[hegykc]

I believe that Mamba stick is going to "thunk" at each axis Spring neutral when you move it in a circle.

 

Quite the opposite. If you pull your warthog left/right you will feel a huge center detent, also forward/backward, massive detent at each axis neutral. Try it, use only one axis at a time. Only when avoiding the center of the circle (using XY at the same time) is the warthog smooth. Neither of these features are found on any real plane controls.

 

When I changed over from CH Fighterstick to the TM Warthog the best part was that you can move the WH in a circle and it's smooth and strong the whole way. Real Hornet sticks do not thunk at each axis neutral, they make a smooth circle like the Warthog.

 

Again, completely unrealistic, and not found in any airplane control system. I'm sorry, but this is just the way it is. A real world system is exactly like you see on the Mamba picture. Each axis has it's own maximum and minimum force and "soft zero" position, not depending on each other.

 

For example, if you apply full right aileron on X axis with 10lbs of force, and then applying elevator, you will still go from 0lb to 10lbs on Y axis, even though your X is already at maximum. In a real plane. Because each axis is a separate system.

 

Not on a warthog hotas. As soon as you move your stick from zero position, the force stays the same in both axis for the same radius movement. Completely unrealistic. Doing the largest radial circle movement on a warthog means you are commanding you aircraft through the most demanding maneuvers and you are getting absolutely zero feedback from the stick. Force stays the same regardless if you're at axis minimum or maximum. Completely and fundamentally wrong.

 

This is wrong on many levels:

1)Precision formation flying is very hard, impossible even, because of the absolutely huge center detent. Aiming also.

2) When you apply maximum X axis, you have to apply maximum force to get even the slightest Y movement, because there is only one spring, and it is already engaged to the maximum. So even though you are starting from zero on the Y axis, you have to apply maximum force from the start, and that force stays at 100% through the whole range of stick movement.

3) Real world pilots correct me if I'm wrong, but the stick movement is not circular. If you apply max X - max Y - min X - min Y you get a square.

 

I know this is like me telling you Santa is not real :) But I'm sorry, that's just the facts. I really wish it were not true, but it just is. Don't blame me, I'm not the one who made these crucial and absolutely amateur mistakes on an otherwise brilliant product.

 

I'm not criticising you, you are however continuously criticising Thrustmasters gimbal and I am asking you to reconsider this public venting because it doesn't endear you to those of us that like our Warthogs.

Also you are not doing them a favor by making your stick, you are using their name in the thread title to lure their customers into your thread.

 

There is a huge market for pilots like myself who own a Warthog and would like plug and play sticks for various aircraft, you started out with a great idea.

 

There are 2 sides to that coin. I will tell you that the most expensive part on my grip is the warthog adapter. You shouldn't blindly follow anyone, especially if they're taking your money. It's ok to speak out.

Edited December 20, 2015 by hegykc

[hegykc]

I have no actual flying experience, let alone a military aircraft :) But I don't know if I would count simulators, you never know what's under the hood. Most available to the public are made to practice procedures.

 

I do however know for a fact that hotas warthog stick can never feel like a real plane stick. It only has 1 spring. It is physically impossible. No real aircraft has the same force on both ailerons and elevators. No prop and no jet. More importantly, absolutely no aircraft would let one axis tactile feedback cancel the other one. That will get you killed in an instant.

 

If you can't feel the amount of your pitch input, just because you are also banking.. well that would be like making a car that has no brake pedal feel if the gas pedal is engaged at the same time.

 

5-6 years ago when I first put my hands on a dual spring stick I was also disappointed because I was used to the arcade style of the cheapest 1 spring sticks. But the real aircraft will never give you the "smooth circular motion" that a warthog hotas has (and all other comercial joysticks with 1 spring system). In a real plane X and Y axis are separate and have 4 quadrants in which they go from minimum to maximum force, regardless of the plane type or era. Even if it's a "fly by wire", it's a safety thing especially in fighters. Your eyes are on the target, you need to feel your stick inputs. And you can never do that on the warthog hotas, if you're banking, your pitch up/down axis has zero tactile feedback and vice versa.

 

This will feel "wrong" and "uncomfortable" if you're just discovering this, compared to a "smooth, easy and arcade" style of the joystick, it did to me. But again, it's just how planes are in real life. (a little silly coming from me with no actual experience, but I've done my research)

Edited December 20, 2015 by hegykc

[jimcarrel]

I believe that Mamba stick is going to "thunk" at each axis Spring neutral when you move it in a circle.

 

When I changed over from CH Fighterstick to the TM Warthog the best part was that you can move the WH in a circle and it's smooth and strong the whole way. Real Hornet sticks do not thunk at each axis neutral, they make a smooth circle like the Warthog.

 

I'm not criticising you, you are however continuously criticising Thrustmasters gimbal and I am asking you to reconsider this public venting because it doesn't endear you to those of us that like our Warthogs.

Also you are not doing them a favor by making your stick, you are using their name in the thread title to lure their customers into your thread.

 

There is a huge market for pilots like myself who own a Warthog and would like plug and play sticks for various aircraft, you started out with a great idea.

 

Apparently, you should be the forum moderator, and treat this forum as one of those new College Campus "safe areas" where it is illegal for anyone to say something that might offend anyone for any reason.

 

That way we could all be happy all the day long and never learn how to interact with other people and learn that others have the right to be an individual with their own opinion and have a right to respectfully verbalize it.

 

If you were the forum moderator, then I wouldn't have been encouraged to write this post.

 

Best wishes for OP!

[hegykc]

No need to get harsh.

 

14th JAR can make his statements and opinions, so can anyone else, just as I can defend mine. I hold no ill feelings to any of the questions or doubts, as long as they're civil, which they are. I try to respond just as civil, with the facts that I have on my disposal. This is no dispute, just a debate and there's nothing wrong with that. I might be wrong in some of these points, I'll gladly learn a few more things if I stand corrected.

 

I don't think it was ever a daily bashing. But I have to show what's wrong with it, to sell you a better solution. Otherwise, why would you buy my product if there's nothing wrong with yours.

 

You think warthog has the best gimbal mechanism? That is perfectly fine, I did too. But now I can answer that with some of my findings which point the other way, that's all. You are free to debunk them if you can.

Edited December 20, 2015 by hegykc

[aaron886]

But continually criticising a great stick on this message board is not necessary.

 

Continually praising it is not necessary either. I agree with him, the movement is terrible, even if the sensors are great.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Ok I get the hint, I'll stop posting in this thread.

I am curious now about fly-by wire stick forces Hegykc. I have access to various airframes and aircrew so let me do some more research and get back to you.

 

Cheers guys, Jar.

 

Nice one. This thread is good imo; the more info / views the better.

[hegykc]

Ok I get the hint, I'll stop posting in this thread.

 

Please don't. Fanboyism can go two ways, the other guys need to toughen up :) No questioning or doubts can ruin neither me nor TM. Worst case scenario someone might learn a thing or two. It might as well be me.

 

I am curious now about fly-by wire stick forces Hegykc. I have access to various airframes and aircrew so let me do some more research and get back to you.

 

Cheers guys, Jar.

 

By all means. Looking forward to it.

[MA_Goblin]

@14th_JAR:

Absolutely don't stop posting. The deeper the discussion goes about pros and con's and what someone feels an advantage and some feel is a disadvantage the more I and others learn what to look for in a great product.

 

regards

[Fakum]

I just want a smoother, better HOTAS,, I have the Cougar Thrustmaster , its good,, for now,,, I'm all for improvement,, bring it!

[whiteside]

Hi guys, whats the status of this stick? Is it set up to completely replace my TM Warthog? Is it for sale and does it work?

Thanks,

Looks awesome!

W

[Svend_Dellepude]

For example, if you apply full right aileron on X axis with 10lbs of force, and then applying elevator, you will still go from 0lb to 10lbs on Y axis, even though your X is already at maximum. In a real plane. Because each axis is a separate system.

 

Not on a warthog hotas. As soon as you move your stick from zero position, the force stays the same in both axis for the same radius movement. Completely unrealistic. Doing the largest radial circle movement on a warthog means you are commanding you aircraft through the most demanding maneuvers and you are getting absolutely zero feedback from the stick. Force stays the same regardless if you're at axis minimum or maximum. Completely and fundamentally wrong.

 

Very interesting hegykc. I never really thought about this problem, but this answers why its so hard to make precise maneuvers with the warthog. Muscle memory will never develop any fixed reference point because there are so many positions where you will have the same feeling.

[98abaile]

You've got me doubting my own experiences now ;) .

Sorry to disappoint, but that's likely so.

Here is what an F18 gimbal looks like (this might be a mock up, not sure, but the layout is correct):

 

There's no way the stick can feel the same all around a circle if only because the fulcrum is different in each axis.

[Sporg]

Nice pic thanks 98.

Ok I was able to get some stick time in an airbus airliner today and also contacted a friend who flies the F/A-18 Super Hornet.

 

Firstly the airliner sidestick does in fact feel like Hegykc describes (i.e feels like the CH Fighterstick) in that if you move it away from center and move it in a circle you feel the clunks at the neutral points of pitch and roll.

If you hold it in roll you can move it fore and aft and feel the pitch neutral.

I was surprised at this and expected it to feel smooth like a TM Warthog, but Hegykc is right about this one.

 

The written correspondence from my Super Hornet friend was a little different and the next time I speak to him I may get a clearer picture. He basically said he hadn't really thought about it but didn't think there were noticeable "clunks" at the axis neutrals. He said the force means you definetly know where the center is but the stick movement was very smooth.

 

It's been a couple years since I flew the Boeing sim and to be honest I was so excited I can't remember for sure if there were neutrals but I remember it took two hands to pull it fully aft in a dogfight :) . When I got my Warthog I remember thinking that it was definetly closer to the Hornet than the CH stick.

 

Hope you guys don't mind but I am finding this discussion interesting and plan on asking a few more sources.

 

Don't mind at all, to the contrary:

As the discussion has evolved, yours and hegykc's comments has really opened my view on the TM Warthog stick compared to actual flight sticks.

 

Very interesting and informing. :)