Tunguskas are shooting down mavericks

[gunterlund21]

Interesting thread and a couple of questions;

1. For you RL mil pilots, would you actually use a HARM88 to take out a small mobile system like a shilka or a tanguska. I thought they were more for static radar sites. Even though the radar turns off the missile can guide to the location.

2. Why not use the high altitude GBU approach to take out the tanguska. In the past that often proved effective and you can load up a big load of 500 lbs gbu bombs. Obviously this depends on what other defenses are in the area but if its just tanguskas or tors it should work.

[Eddie]

1. For you RL mil pilots,

 

You won't find any of them around here, they'll be too busy looking at themselves in a mirror. So you'll have to settle for ground crew and long time simmers with much garnered knowledge.

 

would you actually use a HARM88 to take out a small mobile system like a shilka or a tanguska. I thought they were more for static radar sites. Even though the radar turns off the missile can guide to the location.

 

You could, but really the HARM (at least prior to the AGM-88E) is not all that effective when it comes to actually killing things. 90% of the time if you fire one you're only doing so to suppress a threat, not with the expectation of killing it. Even against a fixed SAM battery.

 

Weasels frankly wouldn't give a damn about a Zeus, and wouldn't be all that interested in a 2S6 either. They are largely concerned with MERAD/LORAD systems.

 

2. Why not use the high altitude GBU approach to take out the tanguska. In the past that often proved effective and you can load up a big load of 500 lbs gbu bombs. Obviously this depends on what other defenses are in the area but if its just tanguskas or tors it should work.

 

You could, if there was no air threat or MERAD/LORAD threat to worry about. But again, it's a lot of effort for something than you can avoid more often than not anyway.

[maturin]

I think in real life you will just have no idea where the Tunguskas are. At all.

 

So GBUs are a nice option, if the fish jump into the boat.

[Eddie]

I think in real life you will just have no idea where the Tunguskas are. At all.

 

That may indeed be the case, at least not exactly where they are. But you'll most likely know if they are there at all, and a rough idea of their location (i.e. if there are any associated with your target).

 

ISTAR assets are very powerful these days, far more than they were in "Desert Storm" or Allied Force. But of course there is always the occasional surprise.

[ENO]

I can't speak for others but I'm planning on activating and deactivating AI radars based on the presence of SEAD assets in zone on a switched condition trigger.

 

It doesn't take much to get it in place... and though it may lack an element of realism I'm hoping it'll be a good addition.

 

I can throw a few "randoms" in just to keep people honest- and there will be windows of time where guys are going to need to figure something out or wait for the next SEAD umbrella. That includes human SU25T pilots of course- or flights of lightly armed A-10s... Generally most of us have an idea as to its maximum altitude and if you hover at all near that the tung will often launch at you. There's your opportunity to put one in the bilge.

 

 

I guess we'll see!

[shagrat]

Good point, I guess you could set it up with triggers possibly...

Yep! A bit tricky, but not perfect. Sometimes SAM shuts down even if a missile is in the air, loosing the guidance radar, but the general trigger logic seems to work.

 

Even a complex setup with two SAM groups making a nice "trap" works quite well. :thumbup:

 

At least a good example to start with.

 

Simple version. One SAM group - activation after enemy planes are inside trigger zone more than 15 seconds (with a little randomization to that).

Shuts down after roundabout after 30 sec plus (again a bit randomized).

 

INTELIGENT_SAM_TEST.miz

 

Here is the complex version with two groups adding longer uptimes and the second group activating when the first group is short of engaging, which makes a nice "look-behind-you!" effect :D

 

INTELIGENT_SAM_TEST_2.miz

 

Have fun! As I said, not perfect, but a good starting point.

 

EDIT: I used SA-15 Tor and SA-19 Tunguska for the test, guess with a SA-6 or SA-11 it will be quite devastating...

Edited May 11, 2013 by shagrat

[K2mil]

O boy the difficult level just passed hard and become impossible. Are tanguskas really so mav prof ?

[ralfidude]

So just checkign up here, are the SU-25T SEAD missiles still botched or are they they way that ED wants them?

 

They miss 50% of the time, even with the TV camera focused on target.

[tintifaxl]

... and realistic AI SAM operators ...

 

Hopefully ED gives us realistic ATC and wingman AI first. :P

[ward8124]

Ok ED I can handle the SAMs taking out Mavs but at least put in some tolerances for failure and not be 100% hit ratio as a compromise as this is really killing the game IMHO. There's NO WAY that these modern systems are 100% accurate so at least replicate this in the game please as playing DEAD/SEAD/CAS against these is borderline pointless now.

[NineLine]

I believe the Sa-19s shooting down Mavs has been reported.

[ENO]

Yes it's been reported but from everything I've read they're now "fixed" ie: shooting down mavs and doing what they were designed to do.

 

I guess it would be reassuring to know that the report will be met with a fix and not a confirmation that that's the way they wanted it in the first place.

[NineLine]

Well thats a slippery slop, it depends on how deep the code runs right? The Sa-15 should shoot down Mavs, but the Sa-19 shouldnt... is it a seperate figure for each system or a general figure for all SAM systems? So how easy is the fix? I dont know... I also dont know how high a priority this will be either as its not a block, as you can kill a Sa-19 with a Mav, its just more challenging than if they couldnt track and shoot your Mavs.

 

Its reported, that's where you start.

 

Yes it's been reported but from everything I've read they're now "fixed" ie: shooting down mavs and doing what they were designed to do.

 

I guess it would be reassuring to know that the report will be met with a fix and not a confirmation that that's the way they wanted it in the first place.

[L0op8ack]

In DCS World, 9M311(used by Tunguska/Kashtan/Kortik), is defined as radio-guided SS missile, not as radar-guided/semi-active SA missile.

Edited June 6, 2013 by L0op8ack

[Gunnergolly]

Noticed yesterday when i was playing a simple mission of (me) a single A-10C against two SA-19's that once the SA-19's had expended all their missiles i could circle around them very close and they never engaged me with their cannons.....

 

They were tracking me, but they never fired on me ????....

[Wolf Rider]

They were waiting to see the whites of your eyes :)

[Gunnergolly]

They were waiting to see the whites of your eyes :)

 

LOL.... It was the first time that i was able to defeat all 16 missiles that they fired at me and in the three years ive been playing DCS i have never ever seen a Tunguska fire it's cannons....... so when they didn't open up on me i felt disappointed and a little let down :cry: :lol:....

[JetlinerX]

I just had this happen to me with the SA-15... I was very confused. xD

 

So does that mean we are supposed to wait till they shoot before we do? Orrrr, what?

[ENO]

Basically yes- That video that Viper posted does demonstrate how you can make it happen. Basically you lock up the vehicle at maximum range... the second you see it launch, you launch back and go defensive- get the missile on your 3-9 and generally it'll run out of energy because one thing the AI LOVES to do is launch when you're at MAX range.

 

Viper said you need to do so in tandem with countermeasures on the SA15- however I was watching his cockpit VERY carefully during the video and he didn't have jamming nor chaff.

 

His was an ideal condition- and one would need to ensure they were aware of other potential threats in the environment. For example- in the presence of 2 TORs or TUNGs... you'd have your work cut out for you. With a TUNG I might be inclined to go up over 17k AGL and use a CBU or a couple of GBUs, while the TOR I may be inclined to avoid it (can't climb over).

 

If you're working with a partner- it's a bit of a different story if there are multiple threats and it could still take a couple of tries. (Second TOR could be firing on aircraft OR the incoming missile... Either way- it's a tactic to consider.

[sonic]

Is there anything new about this bug report? Mavs are becoming useless :(

[159th_Viper]

Is there anything new about this bug report? Mavs are becoming useless :(

 

Against a Tor they are supposed to be useless. Behaviour against Tunguska's have been rectified.

 

Herewith the vid of the engagement against a SA-15: 100% kill-rate with Mav if employed right -

 

eMCEI-FhSUc

[winz]

Tbh, presenting myself as a bait and relying on the AI stupidity to engage me at maximum range isn't my defintion of 'right'.

I'm looking forward to the day when IADS will become reality and 'tactics' like these will no longer be possible.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Take in count that SAM´s never operate as solo, always as batteries, 4 launchers of the same type at the same time or more.

 

Yes, AI now it´s not very smart, at solo, but adding more units helps a lot and is far more challenging.

[Revelation]

I can't believe people are complaining about this. This is a realistic capability and behavior. Adjust your tactics. Currently the SAMs are easy, not as easy as before, they need to be beefed up.

 

The people complaining are the ones that overload their aircraft to the point it barely stays in the air and they try to take on the entire Russian army in one flight.

 

I can't wait until full-featured IADS are in place and witness the whining on the forums.

[winz]

The people complaining are the ones that overload their aircraft to the point it barely stays in the air and they try to take on the entire Russian army in one flight.

TBH, ED is heavily resposible for this. In most of the missions you're tasked with fighting hordes of enemies, and don't you dare to leave one tank undestroyed - mission incomplete. ED mission designe took a nose-dive after BS1.