DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[Esac_mirmidon]

DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[Ala13_ManOWar]

DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

True :lol: . Sorry, sometimes it's hard to tell what thread we are talking.

 

 

So, well looks like at the moment those saying we still have too few aircraft to get lost in variants are right. ED just made a stock 67" P-51, instead of higher rated 72 or 75" ones, they made a stock Bf109K 1.8 Ata instead of 1.98 rated one, and we will have a stock 18lbs Spitfire instead of the higher rated 25 one. Makes sense.

 

S!

[otto]

True :lol: . Sorry, sometimes it's hard to tell what thread we are talking.

 

 

So, well looks like at the moment those saying we still have too few aircraft to get lost in variants are right. ED just made a stock 67" P-51, instead of higher rated 72 or 75" ones, they made a stock Bf109K 1.8 Ata instead of 1.98 rated one, and we will have a stock 18lbs Spitfire instead of the higher rated 25 one. Makes sense.

 

S!

 

I would have been so dissapointed if the 109 would not have mw50 or something.So i totally understand why people want higher rated fuels.

But i've flown for a while without mw50.

And now i'm flying only mustang :lol: .

[Talisman_VR]

DCS Spitfire Mk IX and the Normandy 1944 Map

 

The DCS Europe 1944 WWII project should offer many good map building scenarios once the Normandy map is released. For the DCS Spit Mk IX this could eventually include historically based ADGB and 2nd TAF map missions; a particularly attractive option from the perspective of the many competitive combat fans of the flight simulation genre among us.

 

The DCS Normandy 1944 Map is due to cover the English Channel in the middle with a large part of England on one side and a large part of France on the other side. See this from 'Wags' at

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135412

“All I can say at this time: "What we are looking for are all German fighter bases in northern France (north of Paris) / west of Calais and all allied airbases in southern England south of London but east of Exeter."

 

Mk IX Spitfires from Air Defense Great Britain (ADGB) flew many missions over England, the English Channel and France. ADGB Mk IX Spitfire Strength mid 44 was:

 

Spit IX – 12 Squadrons of 18 aircraft.

(note for interest: also Spit Mk XIV – 3 Squadrons of 18 aircraft)

 

ADGB Spit Mk IX aircraft in conjunction with 2nd TAF Spit Mk IX aircraft flew many missions to France during the weeks covering the invasion of the Continent. See below for some examples of operations for just one of these many day's alone.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/June6.cfm

 

ADGB Spit IX aircraft started using 150 grade fuel with 25lbs boost in 1944. The following is and extract from http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

“Following successful testing, the Spitfire IX's Merlin 66 was cleared in March 1944 to use +25 lbs, obtainable with 150 grade fuel. In early May, No. 1 and No. 165 Squadrons comprising the Predannack Wing, were the first to convert their Spitfires to +25 lbs boost and employ 150 grade fuel on operations.”

It is worth noting that the Predannack Wing is quoted as the 'first', not the 'only' or the 'last'.

'First' means that more ADFG Spitfire Mk IX aircraft converted after No 1 and 165 Squadrons.

 

We also have it on record from Mr A. C. Lovesley, (Rolls-Royce 'Chief Experimental Engineer' and later 'Chief Engineer (Aircraft Engines)' then deputy director of engineering and a member of the Aero Engine Division board of directors before he retired in 1964) that, regarding 150 grade fuel, "The first operational use of this fuel was against the flying bombs in the middle of 1944. Subsequently the whole of A.D.G.B. Was put on this fuel. Later it was used by the Second Tactical Air Force during and after the invasion of the Continent."

[ame]http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/merlin-lovesey.pdf[/ame]

 

 

It is worth noting that 2nd TAF was attached to ADGB for the invasion period.

 

“By mid August the V-1 diver threat was largly eliminated with the advance of the allied armies beyond the launching areas. The ADGB squadrons that had converted to 150 grade fuel now found more time to operate over the continent. The Spitfire IX Squadrons were permanently pulled off anti-diver duty on 10 August and went over completely to escort work, sweeps and armed recces. They paid their first visit to Germany on 27 August 1944.”

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

It is worth noting that the phrase “more time” indicates that, of course, the ADGB Spit IX squadrons were also already spending time engaged on missions across the Channel, but now they had even more time and resources to focus on sorties over the Continent.

 

Though the V-1 diver threat war largely eliminated, the attacks only stopped when the last launch site was over-run on 29th March 1945, so ADGB was using 150 grade fuel well into 1945.

 

Below are 2 Operational Reports from ADGB Spit LF Mk IX 150 grade fuel, 25lbs boost, Armed Recce sorties, from England to the Continent and back.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/165_oprep_16sept44.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/1-squadron-oprep-27aug44.jpg

 

By the end of June 44 ADGB and 2nd TAF had flown almost 46,000 sorties of ground operations, losing 740 aircraft in the process. (Fighter Command 1939-45 by David Oliver, ISBN 000 7629087) Also, during July 44 ADGB Spitfires took part in operations over France, particularly to take Caen.

 

2nd TAF Mk IX Spitfires continued operations on the continent to the end of the war and were one of the major users of 150 grade fuel and 25lbs boost.

 

The DCS Spitfire Mk IX, whether finally delivered with or without 25lbs boost, should be very much in keeping with the historical time-line of the Normandy 1944 Map. Moreover, I believe that the 25lbs boost Spit Mk IX would in no way be out of place, as some tend to claim, for the historical area of operations depicted on the forthcoming DCS map. In fact, almost any version of the Mk IX Spit is more in keeping with the Normandy 1944 map than any other WWII aircraft currently provided by DCS. However, given the later advanced WWII German aircraft opposition in DCS at the moment, and the Me 262 in the pipeline, the addition of a Spitfire Mk IX with 25lbs boost would be a much needed addition to the DCS WWII aircraft stable and totally in keeping with the new map.

Of course, the Normandy map will be able to be used for any number of scenarios and aircraft types and I am by no means suggesting that its use should be limited to Normandy 1944.

 

One last thought. As I understand it, the 'C' in DCS stands for 'combat' and long may that continue in the DCS virtual sky with the best models and environmental conditions as possible.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited May 12, 2016 by 56RAF_Talisman

[Zunzun]

So, well looks like at the moment those saying we still have too few aircraft to get lost in variants are right. ED just made a stock 67" P-51, instead of higher rated 72 or 75" ones, they made a stock Bf109K 1.8 Ata instead of 1.98 rated one, and we will have a stock 18lbs Spitfire instead of the higher rated 25 one. Makes sense.

S!

 

Not really, in my opinion. I mean, comparing 109 ratings with allied ones; There is good evidence that 8th AF Mustangs were using 72" rating from middle of 44 (in really big numbers). Spit IX were using 25lbs boost in good numbers too with the 2nd TAF from, at least, the beginning of 1945 (And there are some clues that ADGB could have been using their 25lbs spits for fighting more than the V1 menace, at least for a while) while, for what I have seen from previous discussions, there is just very few indirect evidence of K4 used at 1.98 ATA. If used was at the very end of the conflict. Considering the state in which the luftwaffe was at that point then likely in not any meaninful numbers at best (more in line with the presence of spit 21 or Spit XIV at 21lbs).

8th AF mustang at 72" seems quite an easy historical option to add (together with 67"hg to represent 15th and 9th AF). Spit at 25lbs debatable regarding start dates while a 109 at 1.98 is just debatable (unless 109 experts had some other proof since last discussions I saw).

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Of course, all the options are debatable even though evidences, we don't know to which extent everyone were used, which dates and so. But I never talked about numbers, just historical stock versions Vs historical enhanced versions. We are getting historical stock versions of everything until now, and it makes sense because enhanced versions should be different to stock version in some way, may be different aircraft available or something and that would be a nonsense right now having only 3 available aircraft.

 

S!

[Zunzun]

Mustang at 72hg is an stock option (as stock as the 67hg) is the same comparation between a 109 G14 vs a 109 K4 (1.8ata). Both stock options. Spit ix at 25lbs is an enhance option but historical one.

Kurfust at 1.98 is simple a very debatable enhance option. Can´t be considered in the same way as the mustang not even the spit.

As I said would put that in line with a spit XIV at 21lbs. Even a spit F21 had more evidence of combat use (even if it was only for sinking an midget submarine).

[Friedrich-4B]

Yo-Yo explained the work that has gone into modelng the Spitfire IX's performance as accurately as possible.

 

My question is, is the currently available data on the 100/150 grade +25 lb boost Merlin 66 good enough to ensure such a variation can be accurately modeled? While the data provided on Mike Williams and Neil Stirling's site is good, it might not be enough to ensure the accuracy that us consumers tend to demand. (Note, for example, that RAF service tests were carried out on several other Spitfire L.F IXs)

 

The point is, I would rather see that ED get the basics right first, before branching out into different fuels and boost setttings. Right now, it shouldn't really matter that we are getting the "plain vanilla" +18lb Spitfire L.F Mk. IXC: the fact is that this, and VEAO's XIV, should be the best available Spitfire FMs yet, and that in itself is worth the wait.

[otto]

Mustang at 72hg is an stock option (as stock as the 67hg) is the same comparation between a 109 G14 vs a 109 K4 (1.8ata). Both stock options. Spit ix at 25lbs is an enhance option but historical one.

Kurfust at 1.98 is simple a very debatable enhance option. Can´t be considered in the same way as the mustang not even the spit.

As I said would put that in line with a spit XIV at 21lbs. Even a spit F21 had more evidence of combat use (even if it was only for sinking an midget submarine).

 

I would also like higher boosted allied planes.But a k4 with a 1.98ata is inferior to a me 262 and so is any other piston engine plane.There were over a thousand of them built which is significant for a small force like LW was at the end of the war. So that makes it stock option for LW .But that would make for a pretty unfair mach against mustang or spitfire.

I don't think you can recreate 100 how things were historically .No developer would simulate fuel shortages, untrained pilots , insane numerical advantage and all this stuff.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

The point is, I would rather see that ED get the basics right first, before branching out into different fuels and boost setttings. Right now, it shouldn't really matter that we are getting the "plain vanilla" +18lb Spitfire L.F Mk. IXC: the fact is that this, and VEAO's XIV, should be the best available Spitfire FMs yet, and that in itself is worth the wait.

That's it, thank you. Not to mention whatever we discuss here ED made his choice and necessary information may be not so easily available for the thousand variants we would like to see into DCS.

 

S!

[Zunzun]

A spit IX at 18lbs will be a very good choice. An flying it will be a delight I am sure. This discussion, I think, is more a theoretical one because whatever ED has in mind has already being chosen. But I couldn't resist to comment on it because, in the same way, I do not think LW flyers would have been very happy if they had to fly with G14 and A8s only against, for instance, mustangs at 72". Perfectly historical choice (very historical indeed).

There are many variant that can be chosen within a historical frame but if the options are limited then it need to be attractive for everyone.

Problem with ww2 is that there were dozens of variants from every plane and with the changes happening in a matter of few months. That kept shifting the airpower balance back and forth during the conflict. That is, in my opinion, what make the air conflict in ww2 so attractive and unique. The air war wasn't fought only in the sky but in the drawing tables and the factories too.

That was part of the success with the old il2 46. You could recreate in a good way the whole conflict and enjoy flying the different variants and how this changes in relative performances influenced your tactical approach to air battles. However, DCS focus is different. Quality vs quantity. The focus is in precise simulation (or as precise as current technology can bring). Simulation in il2 46 was very very basic compared to DCs but my point is that ww2 nuts ask (and endlessly discuss) for so many variants mainly because it was an intrinsic part of the conflict.

[Solty]

+1 Zunzun

[otto]

A spit IX at 18lbs will be a very good choice. An flying it will be a delight I am sure. This discussion, I think, is more a theoretical one because whatever ED has in mind has already being chosen. But I couldn't resist to comment on it because, in the same way, I do not think LW flyers would have been very happy if they had to fly with G14 and A8s only against, for instance, mustangs at 72". Perfectly historical choice (very historical indeed).

There are many variant that can be chosen within a historical frame but if the options are limited then it need to be attractive for everyone.

Problem with ww2 is that there were dozens of variants from every plane and with the changes happening in a matter of few months. That kept shifting the airpower balance back and forth during the conflict. That is, in my opinion, what make the air conflict in ww2 so attractive and unique. The air war wasn't fought only in the sky but in the drawing tables and the factories too.

That was part of the success with the old il2 46. You could recreate in a good way the whole conflict and enjoy flying the different variants and how this changes in relative performances influenced your tactical approach to air battles. However, DCS focus is different. Quality vs quantity. The focus is in precise simulation (or as precise as current technology can bring). Simulation in il2 46 was very very basic compared to DCs but my point is that ww2 nuts ask (and endlessly discuss) for so many variants mainly because it was an intrinsic part of the conflict.

 

 

If you played il2 1946 you would know that JG1 Barton and JG7 Leo flew mostly FW Anton on any map against any allied planes( spitfire 14, tempest ,the latest P51s D30).I would say they were pretty much death in motion.So if you think it's somehow a handicap to fly an Anton ...

a

Edited May 13, 2016 by otto

[Zunzun]

Well, I good pilot will kill you in a flying broom (actually he will make a normal broom fly) ;).

[MegOhm_SD]

:megalol:

Well, I good pilot will kill you in a flying broom (actually he will make a normal broom fly) ;).

 

:megalol:

[Friedrich-4B]

Got that from Mike Williams site? Because he calculated the "consumed quantities" from requirements set in 5/44. I wonder what kind of maths that is. So any data to back this up?

Has rel4y got any real data, such as genuine documentation showing the quantities of 100/150 grade fuel consumed by 8th AF & 2 TAF, to back up his claim that Mike and/or Neil fudged the figures? Just wondering...

 

Attached: first is an advertisement on the Vokes filters, as used by the L.F Mk. IX from "Flight" magazine, 1944. Second is an article from Flight, 1946, describing some flight characteristics of Spitfires from the I to the XIV. "Indicator" was probably a Supermarine test pilot, possibly Jeffrey Quill or Alex Henshaw?

1944 - 1252.PDF

A Spitfire Score Flight, 1946.pdf

[TBear]

After all this discussion about "sex of angels" , are there any news about the state of development of our beloved Spit? ;)

[DD_Fenrir]

Whilst we wait for further news here's some Spitfire pr0n for those whose affections lie with the Supermarine Beauty:

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

 

Cracking display, really throwing it about - and that knife-edge!!! The fluting of an orifice (gunports?) under AoA I've never heard in a Spitty before but I like it!

[Cool Breeze]

Whilst we wait for further news here's some Spitfire pr0n for those whose affections lie with the Supermarine Beauty:

 

 

 

 

Cracking display, really throwing it about - and that knife-edge!!! The fluting of an orifice (gunports?) under AoA I've never heard in a Spitty before but I like it!

Nice video thanks for sharing!

 

The whistling sound is possibly air going through the radiators. You get a similar sounds coming from the Corsair in demonstration flights.

[Combat Wombat]

Great Video )Nice to see a good display where there not worried about it braking .

[Krupi]

Has anyone else noticed the old style elevator on the DCS Spitfire model?

 

I thought it was based on MH434?

 

DCS Type 1 Elevator

 

Real MH434 Extended Elevator

 

:huh:

 

Apart from a few minor issues just how beautiful is the DCS model, man I can't wait to see it :pilotfly:

Edited May 19, 2016 by Krupi

[Friedrich-4B]

Has anyone else noticed the old style elevator on the DCS Spitfire model?

 

I thought it was based on MH434?

 

DCS Type 1 Elevator

 

Real MH434 Extended Elevator

 

:huh:

 

Others have commented that L.F. Mk IXs didn't use the early elevators somewhere way back in this thread (along with the HF aerial wire, that was rarely, if ever, used by operational Spitfires post B of B), so they shouldn't be a feature of the final model.(please, don't use them on the model. Please, please, pu-u-lease?)

[Krupi]

Ah okay, good I had hoped it was pointed out already :)

 

From the pictures I have seen the elevators on MH434 are fabric, right?

 

I wonder why they only changed them to metallic in the latter stages of the war when they had changed the ailerons to metal very early on?

[klem]

Ah okay, good I had hoped it was pointed out already :)

 

From the pictures I have seen the elevators on MH434 are fabric, right?

 

I wonder why they only changed them to metallic in the latter stages of the war when they had changed the ailerons to metal very early on?

 

Well, the ailerons were a real problem right from the start with ballooning fabric at high speed. Maybe the elevators weren't such a problem. They were always very sensitive anyway.

 

I read somewhere that metal elevators came in with the Mk21 due to handling problems but may then have been retrofitted to older spits.

[saburo_cz]

IMO, bulges above wheel`s bay are not much suitable for late war Spitfires too ,like above mentioned elevator. They are after war features, i think.

These bulges went with changed whell`s axis (not means leg`s axis) more suitable for concrete RWY istead of WWII RWY.