Pickup to hoover seem impossible

[jfri]

Well, it is only tricky when you are first learning you have to think about everything, just like riding a bike or skiing. :smilewink: Once you have earned how to ride a bike though, the muscle memory is established and it all becomes second nature - you don't have to think anymore.

 

What Cibit says below is true, you shouldn't necessarily need to adjust pedals and collective much once you have them set and dialed in for hover at a desired altitude, if you are in calm conditions. Most of your active adjustments will be with the cyclic. But in a real helicopter if there is wind you definitely would need to apply the anti-torque more actively to counteract variable impact of wind on yaw rate, rotor downdraft, etc. I am not sure how accurately the wind effects are modeled in DCS.

 

And of course, if you do raise or lower collective to change your height above the ground, you have to adjust anti-torque to compensate to stay pointed in the desired direction, or if you want to pivot in place while hovering.

 

But generally, I think one does want to practice how the three controls affect each other so you can anticipate what to do in a coordinated fashion. For example, my feet and hands are conditioned now that when I raise or lower the collective, I automatically adjust with my feet at the same time to change the anti-torque. (And if I switch from the Huey to the Gazelle, I get messed up trying to remember that the rotor is spinning the other direction and my responses have to be reversed!)

 

Hovering practice is actually a fun game unto itself! Just use the free flight scenario in DCS 2.0, for example, and air taxi to different points around the Nellis ramp and practice getting into, holding, and getting out of a stable hover.

 

Since I last posted a reply in this thread I tried many times and yes it's still tricky or rather impossible I think. I downloaded and tried the mission posted earlier in the thread. I try to hover in front of the hangar and many times I actually end up crashing in it instead. At best I may succeed hover a couple of seconds or so.

I do it like this,

1) First I try to set collective and rudder to an estimated left position as in the tutorial video. Then press force trim. Finding this position seem tricky.

2) I start rising the collective. Usually first thing to happen is a yaw to the right and so much seem possible to react to. This usually happens when my radar altimeter still reads zero.

3) Then the Huey starts moving and now it's very difficult to counteract. The radar meter still does not show more than zero or one at the most.

4) Raising the collective to get up to 3 feet makes things even more difficult to avoid moving around even more.

[Pocket Sized]

You must begin flying the helicopter before it leaves the ground ;)

 

I'd say to leave the trim alone for now, its main purpose in the sim is to reduce forces during cruise. In a hover, the aircraft naturally wants to yaw right, pitch forward, and drift right. You have to counter all of these tendencies as you raise the collective.

 

It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination, you have to be completely on top of what the aircraft is doing in all 6 axis.

[RyboPops]

Practice is really the only thing that will get you to where you want to be. Muscles memory will develop over time and you'll develop a sense of what inputs are needed to maintain stability.

[Holton181]

Indeed what Pocket Sized said, fokus on flying, don't bother about trim or altimeter.

It's all about feeling.

Look out the window, don't bother about instruments for now.

Focus (but relaxed, not "stuck") a couple of meters (~15m or so) in front of the nose. Have the horizon in mind, in your peripheral vision.

Tiny and slow movements of the controls, most important: coordination! All three controls need to be used simultaneously, nothin like "first pedals, then collective and then cyclick", all at the same time!

Watch (through the window) what the helicopter is doing and apply coordinated, tiny corrections. Watch what happens, correct again, watch, correct,...

Fingertip corrections, not your entire arm.

Use your eyes.

 

Really tricky in the beginning, but you will get it eventually.

All three controls will eventually move like one.

THEN, and only then, you can start bother about instruments, trim and other things.

[jfri]

All three controls need to be used simultaneously, nothin like "first pedals, then collective and then cyclick", all at the same time!

 

Is there some rules here ? For example if I (need to) press left rudder should the cyclic be in a specific direction ?

[Ramsay]

I try to hover in front of the hangar and many times I actually end up crashing in it instead. At best I may succeed hover a couple of seconds or so.

I've been there and done that :lol:. Being able to hover for a few seconds is all you need. You are doing it fine (a fixed hover), now you just need to work out what it is you're doing and how to improve it.

I do it like this,

1) First I try to set collective and rudder to an estimated left position as in the tutorial video. Then press force trim. Finding this position seem tricky.

Find what works for you. If setting force trim makes things easier, good. If not, don't worry, just go with whats easiest at the start.

2) I start rising the collective. Usually first thing to happen is a yaw to the right and so much seem possible to react to. This usually happens when my radar altimeter still reads zero.

Apply left pedal to cancel the yaw due to raising the collective. Make minor cyclic adjustments to cancel any pitch, roll or skid sliding while still on the ground. How are you controlling the rudder pedals - do you have pedals or are you using a slider on the warthog (as I imagine that'd make control harder) ?

3) Then the Huey starts moving and now it's very difficult to counteract. The radar meter still does not show more than zero or one at the most.

If the Huey goes light and feels like it's flying, it probably is. The F2 view will probably show the skids 6-12" off the ground but even if they are dragging on the ground - you are light enough to practice static hovers and taxis. You should be able to leave the collective alone and focus on cyclic and yaw. In the real, you might rest your arm/wrist on your thigh while using 'light' two finger cyclic control but in DCS the cyclic/joystick might give wrist ache until you build up wrist strength/muscle memory. If you find you are inducing PIO's due to wrist tension, take a break and practice following taxiway lines, etc and taxi stops (or fly a CSAR/CTLD mission). You are looking for 'relaxed' control and it's not always as easy it sounds.

 

An advantage of flying with friends is you get to see pilots that make stuff look 'easy', mess up and you don't feel a newbie/behind the curve. It took me around 8 hr's to be comfortable flying around taxiways (and I'd had around 12 hrs Air to Air Refuelling 2 years prior which is a similar skill set). Even now it perhaps takes me about an hour to settle back in to hover taxis, etc. after a long break. So don't stress, enjoy what you can do and improve on it while having 'fun'.

4) Raising the collective to get up to 3 feet makes things even more difficult to avoid moving around even more.

Don't increase your height until there's a reason (like sling load clearance, etc. ) and/or you're comfortable. The radar altimeter isn't 'that' precise and it's better/less frustrating to improve control first, until ready to attempt sling load pickups, etc. Edited March 2, 2017 by Ramsay
spelling

[Razor18]

Is there some rules here ? For example if I (need to) press left rudder should the cyclic be in a specific direction ?

 

I have a bit different opinion about "all controls simultaneously", at least in the learning phase. First put cyclic position about 1 cm down and left of center position, press and release trim then immediately return/"release" joystick back to center. I would rather uncheck rudder trim BTW. As you increase collective VERY SLOWLY, at one point the chopper will show you she would want to turn her nose after lifting (it's gonna be to the right obviously). Stop increasing collective, and press opposite (left) pedal until nose stops turning, then increase collective another tad. It WILL turn the nose again, so press opposite pedal even more and hold there of course. At one point you will reach the proper pedal position (about 1,5 - 2 cm left of rudder center on the indicator) to keep initial direction of the nose even after lifting off the ground.

 

So you're off the ground just a little, your nose doesn't turn any more (if it does, stop it with a bit opposite pedal), but now you might see you helo drifting in whichever direction, depending how accurately you've found and trimmed hovering cyclic position before starting adding collective. Stop this drifting with SMALL opposite cyclic movement while looking at the horizont to see any pitch and bank change. Move the stick only 1-2 cm, and when you see the horizont "reacting", stop stick movement, and release joystick back towards center about half the way you moved, so horizont stops moving, just holds the new position. Now press trim and release stick back to center again and let the helo's movement react to the new position of the horizont. You can maybe even stop the drifting by lowering collective a bit to set back on the ground, or barely floating, adjust cyclic trim, and try again.

 

Without trimming it's more difficult to hold hover with "muscle". So I would rather say trimming is always paramount to hold any horizont position, let it be hover, or any speed later for that matter. Constant trimming also prevents you from dead-gripping the stick. I've witnessed several take-offs in Mi-8s and Mi-17s from behind and above the shoulder of the technician, who sits in the jump seat between the pilots, and besides the increased engine whining after throttling up, when they start to pull collective for the take-off, you can clearly hear the force trim klicking furiously like a machine gun. Totally audible even through foam ear plugs.

 

So again, if you add collective VERY SLOWLY, step by step as small as you can, then you can always correct one problem at a time, and only then add the next tad. For a level hovering you don't have to change collective anyway. ;)

[Deezle]

Practice, practice, practice. Just like anything else, if you put the time in, it becomes second nature.

 

Building a collective helped me, partly because it feels more natural and partly because it got me flying the Huey a lot more because it's more enjoyable with proper controls.

[Holton181]

Razor18, I believe we actually giving the same general instructions, but with different words.

Indeed, all controls simultaneously shall be your mindset, but it requires practice, and a lot of it. Impossible to master at first.

But looking at the controls as individual and independent from the start might make it harder to get the flow later on. Better adopt the "single control" from start, in my opinion.

 

Regarding trim. It's a help for the pilot, but he/she is required to be able to fly without it. The Mi-8/17 pilots you refer to are already licensed pilots, all have been student pilots in smaller helicopters without trim/sas before entering the Mi cockpit. Learned to fly without helping systems I would assume.

When you begin your training IRL you have an instructor, leting you focus on your controls and view outside (!). Also, in your first lessons you often only get to handle one control at the time, giving you a feeling what it actually doing with your aircraft.

That's not in general possible in DCS, making it even harder to learn.

 

The helicopter is following your control inputs, and shall do so while training. Using the trim (which isn't behaving as the real thing anyhow) will not only add extra complexity but also break the mental connection between your muscles and the behavior of the helicopter (presing a button and move cyclick to center when you don't want the helicopter to move). Not good when learning.

Remember, trim is a help for pilots that can fly already.

 

jfri, as other has already mentioned, an extension on your joystick is highly recommended, required in my opinion. A real collective is good to, have seen closet pilots use a stick duct taped to their airplane throttle control ;-)

[Razor18]

Remember, trim is a help for pilots that can fly already.

 

I can agree with you in anything but this. Trim definitely helps everybody flying. Wouldn't have been invented otherwise. My 2 cents at least... :D

[Holton181]

Let's agree to disagree then

[Eight Ball]

I made this a while back, hope it might helps.

 

Personally, I always trim for a hover at ground level and then don't touch the force trim for the rest of the flight.

 

There isn't one exact position for the trim at take off, it will depends of several factors: crosswind, slick or armed, etc.

 

[Robert31178]

8 Ball, thanks for posting that. I just put it on my unit's website to help train two new guys who are interested in learning a bit about the Huey. It pretty much shows what I had to learn for myself. Very Helpful!!!!

 

~S

[jfri]

I made this a while back, hope it might helps.

 

Personally, I always trim for a hover at ground level and then don't touch the force trim for the rest of the flight.

 

There isn't one exact position for the trim at take off, it will depends of several factors: crosswind, slick or armed, etc.

 

 

Interesting video. Like me you have to raise the collective more than 50%. Then it seem to me that you are not exactly stationary over the same point.

When I try to recreate this I easily start to drift away little more.

[Robert31178]

".....it seem to me that you are not exactly stationary over the same point. When I try to recreate this I easily start to drift away little more."

 

Of course you drift. It's a helicopter. Same with planes, you are never "welded" on a wing, even the Thunderbirds - watch a vid from one of the TB or Blue Angles and see how they move. You can't see it from the ground, but up close they move around quite a bit. A helicopter is NEVER in one spot. Ever. With a helicopter every time you make an input you need to make a follow up input, followed by another, and another, etc etc.....it's trying to kill you.

 

I ran lifeboats in the USCG for half of my career, and two or three times a month I worked under MH-60J's and T's from AirSta Astoria doing hoists. In an advanced helicopter like the -60, with all of its control dampers and autohover (if used) the helicopter still drifted around. I would guess that I have sat under a -60 for close to 400 hours and not once did I see one sit still. the two lifeboat stations I was stationed at had helo pads, I've seen them land on the ground up close a bunch, they don't wobble when they set down, but they sure as hell aren't perfectly still. I also used to ride on them when I was on a buoy tender stationed in Alaska; they'd run us to some of our shore AToN.....again, never noticed a -60 being perfectly still in a hover.

 

I guess what I am getting at is you can be great at flying the Huey in a sim, and get your force trim set just so, and stand on your pedals just right....and then you will still have to move the cyclic smoothly while going up and down on the collective, while also dancing around on the pedals.....do all of that and you will remain in a small area, not a spot.

 

Oh, side story, one time I was showing off, asked my girlfriend at the time go for a ride with me in my Stingray after I put a new motor in. Turned out on Otis ANG / AirSta Cape Cod and stood on the gas....and parted the throttle cable. I waited about 2 hours for a tow truck to come (back before 9/11 the base had mall type security at the gates)....while I waited a National Guard unit came and fast roped not 100yds from me in a field from a Huey. That guy hovered and hovered, he was there a good 3 mins or so hovering, and that helicopter in the hands of this pilot was very stable and steady....but not still.

 

~S

[FragBum]

There's some good input here, the thing here is to try and absorb whats been said and the interactions of the controls. Also have a look at the principles of helicopter flight for some more insight.

 

keep in mind DCS whilst a PC SIM models a lot of the real life parameters of flight.

 

Control settings are important and probably as many opinions about it as well. ;)

 

I will say however dialling down the sensitivity of controls on cyclic and even applying some curves on pedals and collective will help when learning that's how i started.

 

As I have (still learning) found you (I tended to) will likely be over-correcting, a lot on the controls with the out of the box settings.

 

I'm currently using Logitech Extreme 3d as cyclic and the slider (not the twist action) as collective and Saitek combat pro pedals so experiment a little with your kit.

 

 

I started with around 30 saturation on the cyclic no trim.

 

reduced the roll and pitch input for a given amount of cyclic movement.

 

I personally don't think any other transfer function should be applied as that would make cyclic input non linear across centre travel. (I could be wrong but,)

 

A slight amount of curvature on the pedals +10ish (that will go negative after some practise)

 

Controls the amount of applied toque for the amount of pedal movement.

 

For the collective I have set curvature to 60ish and set to slider in axis tune, this tends to smooth out the control of applied power (lift) as the slider is advanced. a bit log law /.

 

The slow lift off technique is a great start, jump into the Huey free flight in "Instant Action" and find a large open space and practise this a lot. Avoid the grip of death and it really is small inputs.

 

When observing a point in the distance to serve as a reference you need to also include the horizon and the aircraft frame (view port as you see it on the monitor) in your mind all at the same time the reference point to keep a constant position from. The horizon because until you get some skills you will over correct a lot looking nearby. The aircraft so as to maintain a hover you need to keep the Huey's attitude consistent. (The Huey does wobble a bit.) As well you also need to control the collective to keep the height correct.

 

Observing what the aircraft is doing with reference to the horizon will give you a clue as to what input is necessary or even no input sometimes to keep the aircraft's attitude stable. Remember there is some delay between input and effect but knowing this comes with practise.

 

Also the sooner you jump on movement the less input you will need to correct that movement.

 

And in total tongue in cheek regarding the other bits like toque gauge, gas producer gauge, rotor engine RPM, just listen to the turbine and the rotors the Huey is a fun model to fly. :thumbup:

Edited March 8, 2017 by FragBum

[FragBum]

I'm using TM Hotas Warthog with an extension to the joystick. The collective is assigned to the right throttle.

It was new to me that I simultaneously needs to make adjustment to all three controls. This sounds very difficult.

 

This is how it works. :thumbup:

[Eight Ball]

Interesting video. Like me you have to raise the collective more than 50%. Then it seem to me that you are not exactly stationary over the same point.

When I try to recreate this I easily start to drift away little more.

 

This wasn't a demonstration of my hovering abilities :P

I'm sure you can find vpilots out there who can keep a more stable hover.

Also, I don't have rudder pedals.

 

The video was originally made as an answer to similar thread that popped up months ago. I thought it would be simpler to show it on video than writing a long text about proper control input.

 

But to add to what Robert31178 said, real pilots also have a hard time keeping a steady hover, it's a very very delicate operation.

 

Take a look at those videos, you'll see they don't stay stationary over the exact same point. And judging by the trees in the background, it doesn't seem to have been recorded in extremely windy conditions.

 

 

 

 

 

To me, it seems the only way to remain perfectly stationary over the same point is...to land :P

 

It was new to me that I simultaneously needs to make adjustments to all three controls. This sounds very difficult.

Like Fragbum said, this is how it works. Small and constant adjustement to all the controls.

Raising the collective will induce a torque which will need to be counteracted with rudder pedals inputs which itself will create a slight roll which will need to be corrected with the cyclic, and so on.

At first it's very counter intuitive and then at some point it "clicks" and you don't even realise you're doing it.

 

just listen to the turbine and the rotors

This.

I'd highly recommend using Skullz sound mod for the huey. It's a symphony!

Again, it won't happen over night but with time you'll learn how the huey "sings"

Edited March 8, 2017 by Eight Ball

[Bearfoot]

...(snip)...

Also, I don't have rudder pedals.

...(snip)...

 

 

RESPECT!!!! :worthy:

[RabidRider]

Watching those video's reminds me of just how good the flight model of the Huey is in this game. Don't know how to explain this

in the correct terms (the dynamics at play, the gyroscopic forces acting on the helicopter) but all of the subtle movements in the video are very recognizable.

Belsimtek did a great job! Can't wait to fly BST's next heli module, hopefully in the near future.

Edited March 8, 2017 by RabidRider

[Razor18]

A helo pilot told me once: hovering is like trying to grab one tennisball in your hand, like you grab a joystick, then try to balance another tennis ball on top of the one you grabbed.

[RabidRider]

Nice way of putting it

[RyboPops]

Here's another fine example of what a realistic hover looks like (skip to 2:45 ish):

 

[FragBum]

Since I last posted a reply in this thread I tried many times and yes it's still tricky or rather impossible I think. I downloaded and tried the mission posted earlier in the thread. I try to hover in front of the hangar and many times I actually end up crashing in it instead. At best I may succeed hover a couple of seconds or so.

I do it like this,

1) First I try to set collective and rudder to an estimated left position as in the tutorial video. Then press force trim. Finding this position seem tricky.

2) I start rising the collective. Usually first thing to happen is a yaw to the right and so much seem possible to react to. This usually happens when my radar altimeter still reads zero.

3) Then the Huey starts moving and now it's very difficult to counteract. The radar meter still does not show more than zero or one at the most.

4) Raising the collective to get up to 3 feet makes things even more difficult to avoid moving around even more.

 

Okay do you mean it kinda did this?

No real cyclic input

 

Think of it like the Huey is a vehicle suspended under a main rotor and in effect the vehicle dangles below the rotor at the centre point. The rotor disc plane can vary relative to the craft and thrust (lift) can be angled (vectored*) by the cyclic control.

 

Consider also that the balance of the aircraft will not be perfect and that the ground may not be very flat. What you need to achieve is to take the weight of the aircraft with the downward thrust using the collective correcting the toque reaction with the pedals and the fun part, lift the aircraft with enough thrust vectoring to balance the unbalanced load under the rotor disc and then add corrections to maintain your position. All at the same time.;)

 

 

This is to demonstrate the process the Huey requires more or less continuous control input.

 

small input

 

Some of the input to the cyclic will be in the form of a general bias of the position of the cyclic and a component of blips or nudges in the direction you want to apply correction. The bias being the general amount to balance the vehicle under the rotor disc and the blips to correct for stability of an inherently unstable system. Simple right. Well sort of. :P

 

Then you practise

 

 

HTH :thumbup:

 

I've been giving the Gazelle lots of love lately. :megalol:

[FragBum]

 

I'd highly recommend using Skullz sound mod for the huey. It's a symphony!

Again, it won't happen over night but with time you'll learn how the huey "sings"

 

Interesting I sometimes check the Huey's instruments to see if it's reality compares to my reality. A lot of that is based on 3d perception with rift and just listening to the bird sing. :thumbup: