M-2000C Update Discussion

[Santus]

Most of us has bought early acces modules, not only to get our hands on them, but also as an supportive action. That kind of loyalty also means that the devs should feel obligated to do their utmost to get modules finished.

 

That right there...

[cypc]

RAZBAM fails to deliver

I respectfully disagree, most of Mirage's announced features not yet implemented are because ED needs to do some work about it (terrain following radar, anti-runway bombs ...). For the rest, FM took time, but wasn't it worth it? Manual took time, but wasn't it worth it?

If you look at Mirages patch history, it always received regular updates, and the post was edited no later than yesterday.

 

the project was hugely neglected

The only period of time when the Mirage got neglected was from early 2017 to the E3, because ED proposed to show the Harrier at the Expo, so Razbam accepted and had to dedicate a lot of ressources to make it flyable.

 

Don't forget how other 3rd party modules development went:

• Mi-8 was in early access for 3 years
  
• It took 4 years to get EGT management on the Huey
  
• For many years the Mig-21 broke every 2 update
  
• And the Hawk holds the record, I won't start a list here
  

 

Overall, is the Mirage feature complete? No

Does it work for 95% of it's missions? Yes

Is Razbam still working on it? Yes

 

If it was as broken and unfinished as some dishonest comments stated, there would not be that many squadrons flying it with great success.

 

(Oh, and buying something in early access means giving up the right to complain, many people forget that, those should wait release to then decide if it's worth buying or not)

[TomCatMucDe]

most of Mirage's announced features not yet implemented are because ED needs to do some work about it (terrain following radar, anti-runway bombs ...)

 

If you think, these are the problems with the Mirage, you obviously dont fly it.

[cypc]

If you think, these are the problems with the Mirage, you obviously dont fly it.

 

And you obviously didn't read the whole post or just decided to ignore it :book:

[Pikey]

What is it that people keeping citing on unfinished on the Mirage, honestly asking? I know the Air to Ground was stated up front they can't implement until ED do something there. I heard there was something about the PCA, but it doesn't sound like it's unfinished, just, not interpreted according to real life. What else is there, i'm seriously asking, it's not feeling unfinished just waiting on something.

[fjacobsen]

Don't forget how other 3rd party modules development went:

• Mi-8 was in early access for 3 years
  
• It took 4 years to get EGT management on the Huey
  
• For many years the Mig-21 broke every 2 update
  
• And the Hawk holds the record, I won't start a list here

Honestly I don´t feel that the time taken for the mentioned moduels rectifies anything.

 

 

Belsim was also too slow getting things done and can not be used as an excuse.

 

 

The Mig-21 and the Polychop SA-342 also has been too long underway.

 

 

I know that some will say that if You can´t accept this, then You shouldn´t be part of early access', but thats also not an excuse.

 

 

As said - I get the early acces modules also in order to support this franchise, knowing that Flight sims are niche' "games". But still developement time taking years rather than month should not happen, thats for me just an indication off the modules not really ready for release - also not as early acces.

 

 

Strange thing is that everytime there is a great hype and alot of feedback just arounf early acces release and then also a few weeks after, but then things get silent. No more changelogs and only minor updates to keep people happy. Even the AV-8B development feedback and changelogs has become rather silent for some time now.

 

 

I would still support this franchise, but only if I see sufficient progress and improvements.

 

 

Also ED has promised fixes for items not really being attended - f.ex embarking code, damge modelling etc.

For me the WW2 birds are very nice and throroughly modelled, but are useless in combat due to the poor damage modelling, seeing AI opponents carry on with cryptonite engines after having been pumped full og shells and projectiles.

[TomCatMucDe]

And you obviously didn't read the whole post or just decided to ignore it :book:

 

 

 

Starting your post saying that there are not problems and mentioning insignificant unfinished features is kind of a deviation from the real issues this module has: Radar, PCA, INS ...

 

 

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[Silver_Dragon]

 

Also ED has promised fixes for items not really being attended - f.ex embarking code, damge modelling etc.

For me the WW2 birds are very nice and throroughly modelled, but are useless in combat due to the poor damage modelling, seeing AI opponents carry on with cryptonite engines after having been pumped full og shells and projectiles.

 

ED working on the damage modelling (Yo-Yo and ED team talk about them), actually has on progress to improve them, but remember the great quantity of work has been "raw" code before can be see some "cosmetic" pics and videos. The same situation has with embarking code, AI response vs damage and a long etc...

[Skitter]

The only period of time when the Mirage got neglected was from early 2017 to the E3, because ED proposed to show the Harrier at the Expo, so Razbam accepted and had to dedicate a lot of ressources to make it flyable.

 

RAZBAM choose to accept the offer and nobody forced them to do so. It left the Mirage project neglected for over a year. With not a single update or information. Since Harrier development started and it is out most of their effort goes to Harrier and M2000C is receiving less attention even though Prowler said that Harrier development won't impact on M2000C work. You make an attempt to simplify it, but I've been reading the forum regularly and I know how RAZBAMs attitude towards the project and community changed over the years. As somebody above said, they have already cashed on M2000C early access - and that's the impression I get. The update thread you have pointed too only shows the recent year. Does not show the year when project was hugely neglected. And yes, the Mirage started to receive updates again, great.

 

most of Mirage's announced features not yet implemented are because ED needs to do some work about it (terrain following radar, anti-runway bombs ...).

 

INS update is not one of them.And that's what is the most annoying to me. Also little but annoying things like one wingtip light bigger than the other, synchronization of nav lights brightness. Various switches and controls not working and does not require a special API to fix.

 

Mi-8 was in early access for 3 years

Mirage went quietly into release a long time a go. And that was dodgy if you ask me.

For many years the Mig-21 broke every 2 update

So did the Mirage ! Nothing to be proud of.

 

(Oh, and buying something in early access means giving up the right to complain, many people forget that, those should wait release to then decide if it's worth buying or not)

 

Thank you for sharing your philosophy of early access. With all due respect I don't see any sense in it. I believe it's actually the opposite.

 

If it was as broken and unfinished as some dishonest comments stated, there would not be that many squadrons flying it with great success.

Yes, some comments go too far. It's 90% complete (give or take)

Edited April 11, 2018 by Skitter

[Neil Gardner]

I can understand it is irritating when people have expectations over a model that are not fulfilled but the idea that there is some slight of hand or some cynical failure of commitment on the part of developers is not only unlikely to be true, it is distinctly unhelpful. No one with any sense is in business to let down their customers. Criticism is, therefore, fine if it is reasonably stated and/or constructive. Carping laced with incinuation of moral inadequacy, or ineptitude of one kind or another is wearing and breeds the sort of resentment that will not result in faster and more efficient production of updates. I’m not about to say that there is nothing to complain about, improvements are always possible and personally I love a good update if it fixes an issue, adds a feature or improves visuals. But let’s be clear, these models are all pretty exceptional already. Only a few years ago I was simming with models that even if they had the sophistication of those we have now, would have brought my system to its knees. Absolute realism for a simulation is a contradiction, and the most accurate simulations are hundreds of thousands of pounds and operated by the military.

 

Hope this does not annoy anyone too much. Pax!

 

Neil

[Gators]

I've never feeled they are toying with me.

 

I'm mature enough to know what is still missing, what is buged and how difficult is sometimes software development.

 

But also im able to enjoy the Mirage in the actual state a lot with my squad mates without falling in the drama sometimes this forum evolve.

 

I don't think we can consider like difficult that kind of coding :

 

"Magic Lock symbology wrong when locking with radar and magic it self should be a triangle instead of a circle"

 

or

 

"Mapping radio rotating knob"

 

In the past, we saw RAZBAM coding the INS in two or tree weeks, so don't tell me that those points cannot be done in a year and half...

 

What is frustrating is that this little kind a missing/buggy features kill the immersion and so the interest of the module. We ain't complaining about ground radar capabilities for example.

 

If RAZBAM decided to not update the mirage anymore and focus all the resources on other project, fine, this is a choice but they have to communicate this to their "customer". They cannot say : "update are coming" aaaaaaaannnnnnnd nothing..... A year ago they have announced a PCA logic update !

 

We are not complaining because the module is getting out late, we are complaining because we are waiting for something we paid more than two years ago and we can see that nothing is done to resolve this problem. That makes a huge difference.

 

With that kind of attitude we will also focus on other project unfortunately.

 

Gators

[cypc]

Starting your post saying that there are not problems and mentioning insignificant unfinished features is kind of a deviation from the real issues this module has: Radar, PCA, INS ...

I never said there are no problems (also called bugs) or that these missing features are insignificant, thanks for proving my point further that you don't want to even try to be objective.

 

RAZBAM choose to accept the offer and nobody forced them to do so

Of course they accepted, being exposed at the E3 is a great opportunity.

 

It left the Mirage project neglected for over a year. With not a single update or information.

The mirage got neglected for about 6 month, and maybe you didn't read the forum well enough, because Razbam clearly explained they had to pause mirage development for some time and could not disclose why because of NDA. When E3 started, they explained what was going on.

 

INS update is not one of them.And that's what is the most annoying to me. Also little but annoying things like one wingtip light bigger than the other, synchronization of nav lights brightness. Various switches and controls not working and does not require a special API to fix.

I agree there are many small bugs, and I also wish Razbam would fix them faster, however they are not blocking, and don't affect aircraft's performance.

About INS update :

It does drift, the problem is that the update is "too perfect".

 

Mirage went quietly into release a long time a go. And that was dodgy if you ask me.

It went into "release" just so it could get on Steam, I agree it was not really clean, but at least there is an explanation.

 

So did the Mirage ! Nothing to be proud of.

I can't recall a single update breaking the Mirage, and when I mean break, I mean you can't fly the module in mission at all. Mig-21 used to crash DCS in various situations and cause many performance issues (for example, some point IIRC, turning radar on would crash DCS)

 

Thank you for sharing your philosophy of early access. With all due respect I don't see any sense in it. I believe it's actually the opposite.

It's not my philosophy, it's the just way it is, whether you like it or not. And if you are worried about supporting devs, don't worry, buying a module at release will support them as well, in fact, it may encourage them to make it a finished and polished module faster !

 

Yes, some comments go too far. It's 90% complete (give or take)

90, 95%, doesn't really matter, the point is we have everything we need working (not bug free, but working) for air to air, and for some air to ground (which is not what the Mirage is supposed to do anyway)

Edited April 11, 2018 by cypc

[TomCatMucDe]

I never said there are no problems (also called bugs) or that these missing features are insignificant, thanks for proving my point further that you don't want to even try to be objective.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course they accepted, being exposed at the E3 is a great opportunity.

 

 

 

 

 

The mirage got neglected for about 6 month, and maybe you didn't read the forum well enough, because Razbam clearly explained they had to pause mirage development for some time and could not disclose why because of NDA. When E3 started, they explained what was going on.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree there are many small bugs, and I also wish Razbam would fix them faster, however they are not blocking, and don't affect aircraft's performance.

 

About INS update :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It went into "release" just so it could get on Steam, I agree it was not really clean, but at least there is an explanation.

 

 

 

 

 

I can't recall a single update breaking the Mirage, and when I mean break, I mean you can't fly the module in mission at all. Mig-21 used to crash DCS in various situations and cause many performance issues (for example, some point IIRC, turning radar on would crash DCS)

 

 

 

 

 

It's not my philosophy, it's the just way it is, whether you like it or not. And if you are worried about supporting devs, don't worry, buying a module at release will support them as well, in fact, it may encourage them to make it a finished and polished modules faster !

 

 

 

 

 

90, 95%, doesn't really matter, the point is we have everything we need working (not bug free, but working) for air to air, and for some air to ground (which is not what the Mirage is supposed to do anyway)

 

 

The subjective is clearly you.

You cite insignificant missing features as if they are the issue if the Mirage.

 

If you really read the forum as you claim you would know that Zeus (the ASM and radar coder) neglected the Mirage for one year not 6 months !

 

 

 

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[Skitter]

cypc - I have no more time to waste on quote wars and countering your every little half-truth.

[fjacobsen]

Originally Posted by cypc

I never said there are no problems (also called bugs) or that these missing features are insignificant, thanks for proving my point further that you don't want to even try to be objective.

 

Of course they accepted, being exposed at the E3 is a great opportunity.

Why then not go to E3 with the M2000C ?

I cannot see this as an excuse to put paying customers on the sidetrack, just to start a new project getting them on E3.

 

The mirage got neglected for about 6 month, and maybe you didn't read the forum well enough, because Razbam clearly explained they had to pause mirage development for some time and could not disclose why because of NDA. When E3 started, they explained what was going on.

And as said above - no excuse to put a project on hold for which they allready has been paid by loyal customers.

 

I agree there are many small bugs, and I also wish Razbam would fix them faster, however they are not blocking, and don't affect aircraft's performance.

Agree - but that would also hold true if we had got it without radar, weaponssystem - we could then use it as an overpowered GA sightseeing aircraft - not a showstopper.

It went into "release" just so it could get on Steam, I agree it was not really clean, but at least there is an explanation.

Not an explanation, except if the extra income would be used to speed up developement.

 

I can't recall a single update breaking the Mirage, and when I mean break, I mean you can't fly the module in mission at all. Mig-21 used to crash DCS in various situations and cause many performance issues (for example, some point IIRC, turning radar on would crash DCS).

Agree - no such issue as far as I remenber.

 

It's not my philosophy, it's the just way it is, whether you like it or not. And if you are worried about supporting devs, don't worry, buying a module at release will support them as well, in fact, it may encourage them to make it a finished and polished modules faster !

Agree - maybe thats how to get them up to speed, but really shouldn´t be necessary if they mean serious business.

Taking payment, mean You made a deal, and the deal is to deliver within reasonable time, and not put it on hold, just because another opportunity becomes more important - customers first !

90, 95%, doesn't really matter, the point is we have everything we need working (not bug free, but working) for air to air, and for some air to ground (which is not what the Mirage is supposed to do anyway)

But neither feature completed allthough promised for almost a year ago (PCA, INS)

Another frustrating fact is that people like me who buy on Early acces release in order to support (allthough getting a rebate ), often see that they go on sale for much lower prices even before the module is finished. Not something that feels great when You actually paid and took the risc on day one only to see peopla taking less of a risc and wait buying it on sale. I guess most normal people would feel kind of cheated.

[Esac_mirmidon]

cypc.

 

You have nothing to win here. I recommend you to move away, enjoy the Mirage and wait for further updates. More arguing is not going to change any minds at this point and you will be a target any time soon.

 

Just fly as much as you can, be positive and forget anything else.

[Gators]

cypc.

 

You have nothing to win here. I recommend you to move away, enjoy the Mirage and wait for further updates. More arguing is not going to change any minds at this point and you will be a target any time soon.

 

Just fly as much as you can, be positive and forget anything else.

 

Your disrespect for people unagree with your state of mind is just stupid and sad.

 

Gators

[Esac_mirmidon]

As i've said, nothing to win here.

[Gators]

You said so you right.

 

Gators

[TomCatMucDe]

Your disrespect for people unagree with your state of mind is just stupid and sad.

 

Gators

 

I really if he has anything else than haunting for other users who emit any critique to these devs...

 

He is happy with a bad quality, unfinished, heavily buggy module and expects everybody to be the same!

[TomCatMucDe]

cypc.

 

You have nothing to win here. I recommend you to move away, enjoy the Mirage and wait for further updates. More arguing is not going to change any minds at this point and you will be a target any time soon.

 

Just fly as much as you can, be positive and forget anything else.

 

why dont you do that first and leave us alone!

[Fortinero]

hey man, don't worry, I mean, I bought the Mirage from Razbam, that was like more than a year ago, get frustrated by the unacurate and incomplete module and uninstaled it, was my second module after the MiG-21, I just was starting in DCS world and didn't know how the things work in ED and 3rd devs. Anyways of course, I did spend money on it, and for this part of the world it is a ton of money for promices from people that has a very cuestionable comercial ideas. So I did spend my time flying other very good quality and almost complete modules even after his realese, mostly Belsimtek and Heatblure modules, then I read in somewhere (never in a oficial changelog from ED) that Razbam updated the FM and added more stuff after of a year, and I reinstaled the Mirage, and really enjoy a lot the plane, man, is one of my fav aircrafts. But well, Razbam product, still incomplete and more promices, etc. Of course the first an the last product that I can get from that place. I don't have the AV8, I don't like that plane but, you can ask to the owners when was the last time it recieve an update, and how complete it is... so, my recomendation, enjoy the plane at this current state, and do not buy anything else from they until you know the product it is almost complete, like, if I could want the AV8, maybe just need to wait until 2019, and so on... :V

[Sarge55]

hey man, don't worry, I mean, I bought the Mirage from Razbam, that was like more than a year ago, get frustrated by the unacurate and incomplete module and uninstaled it, was my second module after the MiG-21, I just was starting in DCS world and didn't know how the things work in ED and 3rd devs. Anyways of course, I did spend money on it, and for this part of the world it is a ton of money for promices from people that has a very cuestionable comercial ideas. So I did spend my time flying other very good quality and almost complete modules even after his realese, mostly Belsimtek and Heatblure modules, then I read in somewhere (never in a oficial changelog from ED) that Razbam updated the FM and added more stuff after of a year, and I reinstaled the Mirage, and really enjoy a lot the plane, man, is one of my fav aircrafts. But well, Razbam product, still incomplete and more promices, etc. Of course the first an the last product that I can get from that place. I don't have the AV8, I don't like that plane but, you can ask to the owners when was the last time it recieve an update, and how complete it is... so, my recomendation, enjoy the plane at this current state, and do not buy anything else from they until you know the product it is almost complete, like, if I could want the AV8, maybe just need to wait until 2019, and so on... :V

 

Dude... formatting. :music_whistling: That is tough to read. :book:

[TomCatMucDe]

People accepting the state of the Mirage and buying other modules will only encourage Razbam to continue with this policy.

 

 

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[F900EX]

People accepting the state of the Mirage and buying other modules will only encourage Razbam to continue with this policy.

 

 

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You only need to look at the main Razbam page to see there are plenty of people who will throw $60 for modules that are never completed and like many people here just give up and move on.

 

I was going to buy the Harrier but I won't now, I feel bad for the players who paid full price for the M2000c and never saw what was sold to them from early release.

 

Like fjacobsen said a few pages back ... "So shortly after early access the "economic" motivation declines and it becomes more important to get the next money cow ready for early access"

 

That's your answer right there... Shame on Raz IMO