Four Additional Flaming Cliffs Aircraft

[Shadowless]

I don't have any WWII plane but I have the Normandy Map. I have to say that the time I spend in Normandy is very poor.

If this update is four FC3 level planes, I will buy this update.

But according to Nineline's post, those WWII planes are not in ED's option.

[seedofcheif]

No, honestly I dont think being silent about it would help, you guys would have hyped yourselves into a coma, consider this the ripping of the band-aid off. This is what the comment about FC4 meant. Its meant as a increase of entry level aircraft, and I welcome the thought that it might bring new blood in.

 

Sure all of us here want something new and shiny every time ED suggests anything, but its a business, they need to do what they feel is best for their business, some will say to make money for their limos and private jets, but its for the health of the sim, that means ED needs to be a profitable company, they have to have new money coming in, as well as maintain their current fan base.

 

This means its not always about what we want, but what DCS World needs. ED is working on so much, that focusing on one thing that you disagree with is just wasted energy, they are looking at things like dedicated servers, dynamic systems for single and multiplayer, they are looking at a host of different aircraft, many new maps, some you guys dont know about... many modules in development, not from just ED/BST but a number of 3rd Parties. There is so much going on, but if you want to get mad that 4 low fidelity modules are being added to FC, then I guess you gotta be you.

 

I really cant say any more than I have guys, this is where we are at. Its not changing, you have to understand what FC4 is for, it will all make sense then. If not, be mad, I cant stop that. You can continue to discuss losing something you never had, but understand this is what Flaming Cliffs is for. FC4 isnt for most of us, the Hornet, the Hind, the Viper, the Tomcat, the F-4E, etc, etc... that is for most of us.

 

I know you this is a little off topic but nineline, I want you to really quick read your posts over the last few hours then go to pretty much any other online PR account, McDonald's, Best buy, EA, take your pick. Read how they respond to customer criticism. Do you notice how they take that critisism and engage with those customers? Even if what the customer say is blatantly wrong they remain civil and understanding in communications. How do you think you compare?

 

Part of the reason why people are getting so angry is because of how you've responded to criticisim. Instead of acknowledging their concerns and explaining company positions with a sense of compassion you talk down to them and make it your mission to tell them why their opinion is wrong. You treat it like a mix between dealing with a petulant child and an opponent in an online debate. It makes your customers feel like you don't care about them and erodes trust in your brand. You, as the PR representative of ED should at very least try to project that you care about the concerns of your customers.

 

If this is too far OT I understand but if nothing else please read this once or twice before removing it because responding to customer complaints is one of the most important things you as a PR rep will do in your line of work.

[Carlos Danger]

I guess I missed the hype train. If it doesn't make an appearance in the weekend newsletter, I am not aware of its existence.

 

After skimming through much of this thread, I am not as disappointed by what has been revealed so far about FC4 as I am baffled by this strategy to pursue "new blood" for the sake of revenue.

 

I want ED to make a mountain of money and attract thousands of new players, but it is my opinion that re-packaging low fidelity versions of existing modules is not the optimal approach.

 

I do not believe that the depth and detail of full fidelity modules are a barrier to new players.

 

Also, it seems that ED will be competing with itself, potentially undermining sales of their best modules.

 

From my perspective, the best way for ED to make new customers is to refine multiplayer and facilitate the growth of interesting servers like DDCS.

[Tread_Head57]

Just to curb expectations, as far as I am aware, the aircraft being kicked around are already released modules. so none of those fall into that realm.

 

 

So we can't get full fidelity 80's era Soviet aircraft, but we can get re-treading of already made aircraft? FC3/4 makes sense as a middle-ground for aircraft that can't be made into full modules. I don't see the logic to this new idea, but I do wish you well.

[Parkbank]

I just wish we could optimize the sim before releasing new content. Theres probably 2 full fidelity modules worth of work to get stability, old modules (like CA) and even the "not being used much" multiplayer to a level where frustrstion about stuff not woking properly is a luxury problem.

Thats the part im really sad about.

[dimitrischal]

This is elitist at best... many many fans of FC3, and many more out there if there was a wider option of planes. Its the same as complaining about WWII or other eras, just because you dont like it doesnt mean it doesnt do well for ED. And a healthy ED makes things like the Hornet and Viper and others possible.... its all connected, like it or not.

 

If ED wanted they could add different planes to FC4 to increase variety and avoid confusion in multiplayer while still giving players an incentive in the entry level market.

A dynamic campaign both single player and online would pretty much skyrocket everything.

And no it’s not the same as complaining about ww2.

[FoxDelta]

#1 This is slightly off course but how about using resources to build out the support of multiplayer(I'll even PAY for a properly supported and built dedicated server client that sync's data to clients properly!), how do you grow a game this day in age without extensive multiplayer support?

 

#2 if there is a high fidelity module and an fc3 version of it, im not going to put the fc3 version of it on the DDCS network(they cause enough balance issue as is).

 

If you want to grow the player base drop this single player, 1-2 time play through campaign, way of thinking, this is not the future. (try DDCS, seriously, I have what you guys need, some more API support and BOOM, a online game that can do what falcon BMS does!, People will FLOCK to it in massive numbers!)

 

+1

multiplayer is the way to go/gain money/business/customers.

 

ED, have u ever recognized star citizen, never?

[GhostB]

The game might be improving, it might be growing. But dismissing multiplayer as unnecessary because its in the minority now is shortsighted.

 

People don't invite their friends to play single-player, its single-player... People invite their friends to join them, and fly with them, in multi-player. How many MORE people, would be flying multiplayer if it was more stable, feature complete in terms of scripting and quality of life features? How many more modules would be bought because someone saw someone take off or do a successful attack run, in an aircraft they had previous dismissed as not interesting?

 

Additional, new and diverse aircraft would of gone a long way to improving that.

 

You have to find people to market single-player to, multi-player when done right, markets itself.

[Sh4rk]

Hey Nineline, this will get lost in what is now the most popular topic on the ED forums, but can you find out if FC4 aircraft and Hi Fidelity aircraft will share the same slots? Because having limited parking on tarmacs seems restrictive if we're now effectively getting more slots for the same aircraft.

Hey ED, please, PLEASE don't make it in a way the aircraft will share the same slots.

 

Sure slots are a limited commodity in MP servers, but this would WRECK the MP server owner's ability to restrict the usage of FC-level aircraft in order to achieve game balance.

 

If someone can join a slot for say a F/A-18C whether they have the full fidelity module or the FC version, we're gonna run even deeper into the same balancing issues we have now with F-15s and the lack of redfor clicky modules.

 

So, don't do that. Do keep the different versions in different slots.

 

I for myself could even buy FC4 like I did buy FC3, if they were different aircraft. But if I buy FC4, why would I buy the full fidelity versions later, unless I really, really want the FF aircraft?

 

And as all I play DCS in is multiplayer... If multiplayer is less fun because it gets less attention from ED, and is made even worse because of balancing issues, I'm not gonna play DCS or buy any more modules, FC3 level or not.

 

+1

multiplayer is the way to go/gain money/business/customers.

 

ED, have u ever recognized star citizen, never?

 

Off topic, but SC's business model of selling ships based off hype, not keeping their promises regarding "never selling these same ships again" etc etc. isn't any different of where ED is going now, apparently ("no more FC3 level aircraft").

[Vilab]

So, what are those four additionnal aircrafts in the FC-4 pack ?

 

they are already existing modules made by ED, no 3rd party modules, but let's add the Belsimtek ones.

 

 

- the A-10C ? it makes sense, even if it is the one module which launched the DCS standart, even if a lot of its weapons REQUIRE extremely complex management.

 

- the WW2 planes ? it was said no.

 

- the trainers ? it would not make sense.

 

- the Ka-50 ? if you press auto-start and don t use the Advanced attack/navigation system, it is already a system wise newbie friendly module. i have a T16000M stick and a TWCS throttle and i use fewer controls for the ka-50 than for the current FC3 aircraft. But unless you destroy its PFM it won't be newbie friendly at all, it is still an helicopter, it needs constant trimming and expensive hardware to fly it correctly.

 

it would be a terrible idea.

 

- the F-5E ? The only point of this module is to "play" with the old systems.

 

- the f86 and the mig-15 ? Why not ? Because the auto-start already remove 80% of their complexity, because there is no ANY KIND of Korean war assets.

 

- the Huey and the mi-8? those are helicopters aren't they ? see ka-50.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Vilab

[gianlu320]

Just my two cents here

ED wants dcs to be a hardcore sim for the hardcore simmers and also more of a game for the less hardcore guys

Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with fc version of existing aircraft

But Please ED don’t lose focus on the hardcore part of Dcs because in that case the hardcore simmers will not stay or support anymore and you will be left with the gamers only...

Do we remember Microsoft with it’s microsoft flight?

Didn’t go well, did it?

[Velik]

DCS models events till mid 2000s.

So, no su-35 or su-30sm, modern mig-29k.

Not enough public info about 4+ gen crafts.

So, no Eurofighter, Rafale etc.

 

It would be easy to make su-27SM(3). But another su-27. hm, I don't think so.

No multicrew jets, I think, despite we have info about su-24m, little info about mig-31 (my personal dream) and Tornado. Still too complicated to bring in the FC format.

 

My assumptions

New flight model for Mig-29.

Smth like YaK-52 or Yak-18 training plane.

Maybe 1 simplified helicopter.

Smth for WWII. Lagg-3, Yak-1, Hurricane, I-16 etc.

Any chinese soviet-clone aircraft

[FoxDelta]

Hey ED, please, PLEASE don't make it in a way the aircraft will share the same slots.

 

Sure slots are a limited commodity in MP servers, but this would WRECK the MP server owner's ability to restrict the usage of FC-level aircraft in order to achieve game balance.

 

If someone can join a slot for say a F/A-18C whether they have the full fidelity module or the FC version, we're gonna run even deeper into the same balancing issues we have now with F-15s and the lack of redfor clicky modules.

 

So, don't do that. Do keep the different versions in different slots.

 

I for myself could even buy FC4 like I did buy FC3, if they were different aircraft. But if I buy FC4, why would I buy the full fidelity versions later, unless I really, really want the FF aircraft?

 

And as all I play DCS in is multiplayer... If multiplayer is less fun because it gets less attention from ED, and is made even worse because of balancing issues, I'm not gonna play DCS or buy any more modules, FC3 level or not.

 

 

 

Off topic, but SC's business model of selling ships based off hype, not keeping their promises regarding "never selling these same ships again" etc etc. isn't any different of where ED is going now, apparently ("no more FC3 level aircraft").

 

without gaining that much money! and not even close but closing in regards to promisses

[VirusAM]

DCS models events till mid 2000s.

So, no su-35 or su-30sm, modern mig-29k.

Not enough public info about 4+ gen crafts.

So, no Eurofighter, Rafale etc.

 

 

For fc level planes public info is not really this big issue....i mean...a fair amount of educated guessing can be used....i remember in the 90nties tfx,ef2000 and f22/taw....i know they were more games then sims, but for today standard...were totally the best back then...and i would literally pay more then 100 euros to have the very same game (relatively realistic but not gamish like ace combat where you have 80 missiles on a plane) like that with modern graphics....because DCS is cool...but not every night i have 2 or more free hours to do a full fledged dcs mission.

Then i am also thinking to fsx/p3d with tacpack...there you have some modern planes done with really educated guessing like dino cattaneo's ef2000 and f35 and vrs super bug...their level of depth is not that far from dcs standards...so you really care if page x of the MFD is not really the same?

I remember that before BMS and DCS the hardcore level sims were janes f15 and f18 and their depth of simulation were nowhere near what we have now in DCS expecially with modern modules like A10C and F18.

 

So in conclusion...no problem if ED wants to do fc version of existing modules...maybe this can attract new players then later could do the jump...but i hope also they will use fc level for implementing aircrafts that is impossible to do in DCS standard due to lack of public material...like su35,ef2000, f22,f35..

And to us...while all of us like detailed and realistic simulation, this basically remains an entertaining product...so if not all the screws are properly simulated do we really care?

[Cunctator]

I really hoped to see a FC4 Typhoon or older Tornado model :(

[Boberro]

I would gladly see an update to the Su-25T making it TM version. It is not so hard to update its avionics for a higher standard. And it wouldn't be too time consuming, as it wouldn't be DCS model, only an FC.

 

 

The rest which I would gladly welcome is MiG-29K (with 4 pylons per wing), Mirage and improved Su-33 (they received few years ago an avionics upgrade in Russian AirForce).

[Fri13]

I don't understand the negativity toward FC3 level aircrafts, as it really is more about minimal cockpit 3D animation modeling and system modeling but comes with (today) Advanced Flight Modeling.

 

I do not care so much about is the cockpit clickable or not, if there are the major features of the aircrafts. Like one of the most annoying things that there is lacking is Su-27 datalink and radar systems that really nerfs its real capabilities as BVR fighter as how it should be feared.

But then there are like Su-25T thats navigation system is as well over-simplified so the targeting systems are not fully operational but visual quality for targeting is too good so you can do some things that you shouldn't.

That said, the average virtual pilot is not one with full HOTAS. It is not one with a time to go through hundreds of pages from manuals and spend at least 50-100 hours to get efficient enough to fly something by remembering all the cockpit functions etc.

They want to fly, they want to do the combat and they want to get the semi-believable level to do so.

 

The "study sims" that are fully clickable etc are just amazing, but you can't really get anything between "game mode" and "sim mode" so you could put example a 10 year old kid to fly and have fun alone like you can do with FC3 aircrafts!

So going with existing full clickable modules to FC4, it should well fill the cap for beginners. I think that is great idea. The other way as I would see it would to extend the "game mode" but that is very good for kids and teens can go for FC3 level modules.

Let's say that someone buying a FC4 would get a FC3 level aircraft from:

 

AV-8B N/A Harrier (Full module owners could get later the AV-8B+ as bonus)

F-5E

AJS-37

F/A-18C

 

And that package to cost a $59-69 then what is so bad about it? It wouldn't be "away from us" but just get more those going around.

 

Sure if we could get a new aircrafts for FC3 level in FC4, then I would take 2 vs 2.

 

Mig-23 (if we are not getting it as full clickable module as ED has stated they have the plans and not giving them away to anyone!)

Mig-27 (as Su-25A/T quality!)

 

Both those being Soviet but very main force units.

And then something totally refreshing like:

 

A-6 Intruder (would support F/A-18C well by being replaced by it since 1997)

F-111 (would support F-15E Strike Eagle by being replaced by it since 1998).

 

It would be like A-10A is to A-10C.

But neither of those would be "teen" series.

 

If F-16 would come in quality of the F-15C as one of them, it would be great.

So "FC4" levels if would be F-16 and F-15E, then great!

Edited May 27, 2018 by Fri13

[98abaile]

Yep, disappointed. A good opportunity to cater to every audience; instead they choose to not just cater to one, but to exclude another. No buy.

 

With that said............

Who's driving this thing? Tell the helmsman we are waaaay off course.

Why, you dont like the F/A-18C? I think the goal is to expand the entry level part of the sim.

 

Many people have expressed concerns about the F-16 or other future aircraft being done as FC3 versions, this should make some happy, they will reserve some aircraft as full fidelity and perhaps offer them as a lower fidelity for newbies or people that dont want the full fidelity experience.

I don't own nor plan to buy FC3 or 4, but even I can see this is a serious misstep.

 

While the debate for what people want in terms of FC-level or full will always rage, there's no debate that people want new aircraft.

 

As much as I dislike the product line, FC4 is an ideal opportunity to add to DCS some aircraft that won't/can't be available at the full PFM/ASM level for the people who want more FC level aircraft.

You dont own or plan to buy FC3.... so this isnt for you. Makes sense you dont get it.

You're pissing off you're existing customers in favor of potentially pleasing new ones. Not only does this directly contradict one of the basic rules of buissnes (existing customers are always king) but more importantly you don't need to do this you can please both parties this just seems so self destructive...

Why is that, are you mad about the F-4, Hind, Hornet, Viper, and all the other full fidelity stuff coming out?

 

You only speak for you, you dont speak for the entire DCS World userbase.

WOW! This turned the excitement of a FC4 around completely. What a bad bad idea! ED seriously needs to take a look at their priorities.

Or you guys need to reeling your excitement based on a short sentence. No offence guys, but you ramped this up yourselves. ED never promised the moon, so when you dont get the moon, it's not all ED's fault.

 

I am posting now to quell the expectations. Focus on what is coming, and what you know is coming, focusing on what you can dream up will just disappoint you. FC product line is a gateway product, and popular. You guys are already in the gate, for a lot of you, its not intended for you, the Hornet, that Hind, the F-4, the Viper, etc... those are intended for you.

Some great examples of bad PR here. Don't intentionally misrepresent arguments and don't chastise your customers. I could have walked away from this thread just disappointed, now I'm left with a bad impression.

[Dr.SquirrelBoy12]

If it was stated from the start that FC4 would feature dumbed down full fidelity aircraft nobody would be up in arms.

 

Please stop blaming the community for doing the one thing it does every time something like this happens and setting perfectly reasonable expectations based on past experience.

 

The only reason I own FC3 is because it offers aircraft that are not otherwise available in the sim.

 

If I get FC4 why should I use the full fidelity aircraft to fly in multiplayer when I can just use the easy version to gain an advantage? We don't really have an option with FC3 because there are not enough full fidelity fighters yet to do away with the simple FC3 level aircraft in multiplayer.

 

If server owners disallow the FC4 aircraft as I have seen suggested here, what is the point in buying them over the full fidelity aircraft? Unless you fly singleplayer, but then why not get the full fidelity aircraft?

 

Will there be a discount on upgrading to full fidelity?

 

Will these aircraft take up the same slot in multiplayer servers as their full fidelity counterparts?

 

Will we be able to block these aircraft in multiplayer servers while still allowing their full fidelity counterparts?

 

Also this argument that you wouldnt want them doing a FC3 F-16 when they are already making a full fidelity one. I dont get it because in the end the result is the same; you end up with one aircraft that has a simple variant and a full fidelity variant.

 

I'll be honest and say I think the FC series should slowly be done away with entirely and replaced with all full fidelity aircraft though. If the F/A-18 still has a quickstart keybind what is the difference?

[Dondy]

At least the FC4 planes shoud be free for any FC3 owners. Why should I even pay 5$ for an aircraft I already own for some kind of "easy mode"? T thought this would be handled by the sim itself regarding auto-start features and the options menue like easy comms etc.

If you expand these game options EVERY module now existing will be easier to attrackt new players. I know, they are way more expansive as the FC3 planes but with the sales this shouldn't be too much of a problem I guess.

For future models the idea of having FC4 planes first and afterwards goingt the extra mile with some to update them to full fidelity models seems way more appropriate. New players can join in, old players will get NEW planes to have fun with. And the hardcore will get some of them in the future as full fidelity planes. For me this way seems to produce way more revenue in the end.

[33-DFTC]

Just a quick thank you to the ED team for allowing new players to be introduced in DCS World though Flaming Cliffs.

 

As long as the company is wealthy I'll tag along and wait for the full fidelity modules being produced thanks to the FC4 sales.

[Frostie]

There are many people that wouldnt buy a DCS full fidelity module as they arent interested in all the work that goes into it. FC3 is a popular product, whether you chose to accept that or not. Adding more value and choice to it will improve that as well.

 

NO FC4 might not be for you, but there are many people out there it will be for.

 

I guess it never occurred to ED that people buy FC not because of the lower fidelity but to be able to fly the aircraft and their favourite aircraft that aren't available as full fidelity.

The majority of people that buy this product will be ones that are forced to just to keep up to date.

[Vatikus]

I guess it never occurred to ED that people buy FC not because of the lower fidelity but to be able to fly the aircraft and their favourite aircraft that aren't available as full fidelity.

+1.. this was the sole reason for me... and to expand, I had a great dissapointment when I realised that mig29 was in FC2 state...

[Tello]

In this spirit ED could also make a tiny map with a carrier and a small island. A FC3 Map. And please let there be a FC3 heli.

[Buzzles]

You dont own or plan to buy FC3.... so this isnt for you. Makes sense you dont get it.

I did wonder if you'd respond solely on that point and you did. You're dismissing my whole statement based on a single point in it.

 

My actual point that from reading these forums and other places that it's clear many more people want different aircraft over FC versions of existing modules isn't something that's nullified by my own personal dislike of FC3.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Buzzles