Landing with NWS

[fagulha]

22 minutes ago, Swiftwin9s said:

Where are you getting that gouge from? Thats not the IRL way

Probably i misunderstood with NWS HI and used that way with NWS, it´s my only explanation for the wrong usage.

What is the procedure you use?

[Swift.]

5 minutes ago, fagulha said:

Probably i misunderstood with NWS HI and used that way with NWS, it´s my only explanation for the wrong usage.

What is the procedure you use?

NWS low gain is on all the time, other than when the parking brake is activated.

[fagulha]

Just now, Swiftwin9s said:

NWS low gain is on all the time, other than when the parking brake is activated.

I will correct my procedure from now on, and check where i wrongly read about Hornet NWS usage.

Thank you.

[TheCoyoteHunter]

Chuck has a link in all his Tail-Dragger tutorials: "Taming Tail-draggers - Essay by CFI"

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-uSpZROuEd3V3Jkd2pfa0xRRW8/view?resourcekey=0-TlqNBXXJzHIRZYdieKzerw

I know this is meant for tail-draggers and not fast jets, but the forces that happen on take-off and landing are well explained. You need to try to be ahead of the left / right oscillation that happens, almost like predicting where it will go next. It certainly helped me with cross wind take-offs and landings.

 

 

[Bunny Clark]

On 11/14/2021 at 2:56 PM, fagulha said:

on landing same thing, only enable NWS when hit 80kts. That´s the way.

The Hornet automatically enables NWS as soon as there is weight on the nose wheel. 

[fagulha]

8 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

The Hornet automatically enables NWS as soon as there is weight on the nose wheel. 

Thank you for your reply/help.

I corrected my procedure. i´m not sure but i think i mixed with the F-16C, because in the Viper i only use the NWS till 80kts for what i read before about Viper Takeoff/landing procedures.

[Bunny Clark]

5 hours ago, fagulha said:

i´m not sure but i think i mixed with the F-16C, because in the Viper i only use the NWS till 80kts for what i read before about Viper Takeoff/landing procedures.

Yup, the Viper and the Hornet land very differently (on airbases). The Viper wants to areobrake, with the pilot holding the nose high until the aircraft has slowed, then enabling NWS once the nose wheel is on the ground. The Hornet wants to get the nose wheel on the ground right away and use the speedbrake plus wheel brakes to slow the aircraft. The Viper also flies the approach with the speedbrake extended while the Hornet does not, though on both aircraft you want to hit the speedbrake extend once you're on the ground. The Hornet also has much greater trailing edge flap extension, which helps slow down the approach speed and provides a bit more drag.

[fagulha]

32 minutes ago, Bunny Clark said:

Yup, the Viper and the Hornet land very differently (on airbases). The Viper wants to areobrake, with the pilot holding the nose high until the aircraft has slowed, then enabling NWS once the nose wheel is on the ground. The Hornet wants to get the nose wheel on the ground right away and use the speedbrake plus wheel brakes to slow the aircraft. The Viper also flies the approach with the speedbrake extended while the Hornet does not, though on both aircraft you want to hit the speedbrake extend once you're on the ground. The Hornet also has much greater trailing edge flap extension, which helps slow down the approach speed and provides a bit more drag.

The Hornet is my number 1 (i love carrier ops since childhood) but i started to learn the Viper to learn different/new procedures and that´s why i think i mixed the info i posted here. I learned to use the speedbrakes on the Viper on the approach (downwind, and they only open 60º then when wow they extend to 63º i think), in the Hornet i use the speedbrakes on the break (boat, then when get dirty the speedbrake auto retracts) and as soon i touch down (on shore). The aerobrake in the Viper in my opinion is due to no landing weight restriction like the Hornet. Yes, different methods. Although i´m much confortable with landing the Hornet. Thank you for your reply.

[Swift.]

5 hours ago, fagulha said:

The Hornet is my number 1 (i love carrier ops since childhood) but i started to learn the Viper to learn different/new procedures and that´s why i think i mixed the info i posted here. I learned to use the speedbrakes on the Viper on the approach (downwind, and they only open 60º then when wow they extend to 63º i think), in the Hornet i use the speedbrakes on the break (boat, then when get dirty the speedbrake auto retracts) and as soon i touch down (on shore). The aerobrake in the Viper in my opinion is due to no landing weight restriction like the Hornet. Yes, different methods. Although i´m much confortable with landing the Hornet. Thank you for your reply.

So, fun fact. Speedbrakes in hornet affect yaw stability. So its advised to not use them on landing unless its 100% needed. And dont confuse aerobraking with flaring. Hornet can flare before landing too, between 34000lbs and 39000lbs landing weight. Aerobraking however is not allowed in hornet because of risk of striking the stabs on the ground.

[razo+r]

30 minutes ago, Swiftwin9s said:

So, fun fact. Speedbrakes in hornet affect yaw stability. So its advised to not use them on landing unless its 100% needed. And dont confuse aerobraking with flaring. Hornet can flare before landing too, between 34000lbs and 39000lbs landing weight. Aerobraking however is not allowed in hornet because of risk of striking the stabs on the ground.

Fun fun fact: They (SAF) always use the speed brake when landing regardless of runway length. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by razo+r

[Steel Jaw]

22 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

The Hornet automatically enables NWS as soon as there is weight on the nose wheel. 

Yes, and I hate that.

[Swift.]

10 hours ago, razo+r said:

Fun fun fact: They (SAF) always use the speed brake when landing regardless of runway length. 

 

How fascinating, I imagine it's something to do with all their runways being short enough to warrant needing that extra deceleration.

[razo+r]

1 hour ago, Swiftwin9s said:

How fascinating, I imagine it's something to do with all their runways being short enough to warrant needing that extra deceleration.

Not sure about that. Dont know about landing performance of the Hornet, but 2700m should be plenty even without speedbrake? 

[Razor18]

On 6/2/2018 at 6:58 PM, Eldur said:

I took off with NWS off as well. I switch it off as soon as the speed indicator comes to life, just by experience with other DCS modules. And mostly I paddle after touchdown, but I "forgot" to do that once or twice already, without getting any issues though.

 

But: There are two ways to control yaw more precise on landing that can also be used:

 

1 Toe brakes

2 reverse aileron

 

As for the latter one: stick to the left: yaw right and the other way round. This happens because you decrease the area of airbrake on the side that you're pointing your stick away from. Good old trick, works very well.

What you meant is probably: you increase the area of airbrake on the side that you're pointing your stick away from. If you would really "decrease" it, it would just amplify your problem. Agree?

[fagulha]

12 hours ago, Swiftwin9s said:

So, fun fact. Speedbrakes in hornet affect yaw stability. So its advised to not use them on landing unless its 100% needed. And dont confuse aerobraking with flaring. Hornet can flare before landing too, between 34000lbs and 39000lbs landing weight. Aerobraking however is not allowed in hornet because of risk of striking the stabs on the ground.

To be honest i always used the speedbrakes when landing on shore when WoW although investigating a ton of landing videos to take my notes, and learnings, and see that it´s not always the case. Going to practice my landings without using the speedbrakes (only in short runways or else) and correct my procedures. Thanks a lot for all the info and help you´re giving me.

[jojyrocks]

On 11/19/2021 at 5:19 AM, Swift. said:

So, fun fact. Speedbrakes in hornet affect yaw stability. So its advised to not use them on landing unless its 100% needed. And dont confuse aerobraking with flaring. Hornet can flare before landing too, between 34000lbs and 39000lbs landing weight. Aerobraking however is not allowed in hornet because of risk of striking the stabs on the ground.

 

Aerobraking can be done in the Hornet IRL. Just not possible in DCS. There are PLENTY of airshow videos showing F-18, Non- US pilots, mostly land based operators doing some aerobrake landing, keeping nose up angle and coming to a stop quicker. In DCS, this is not possible, keeping nose up angle, it is only possible with half flaps.

 

The vids below show pilots doing just that. Time stamp for first is: 1:18.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwWmxgzUMFE

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ixohL5oXm4

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by jojyrocks

[ex81]

Jetstream, canadian Hornet Pilots

Hi,

I`ve seen all eight episodes of this fantastic production.

But would like to watch it again.

Does anybody know where I could download it ?

[Razor18]

Youtube, but not the best quality though...

[Ephedrin]

Am 19.11.2021 um 13:28 schrieb Razor18:

What you meant is probably: you increase the area of airbrake on the side that you're pointing your stick away from. If you would really "decrease" it, it would just amplify your problem. Agree?

I know, old post

 

what you actually do in the cockpit is to put the stick or yoke into the wind. This has several consequences. The wind coming from the side increases the lift on the in-wind wing as it has more surface the wind can flow over. So you DEcrease the lift by adding upwards aileron which is equal to a spoiler, it spoils the lift and the wing stays down. It also decreases the airfoil and hence drag. In the hornet which doesn‘t have ailerons it already adds spoilers. On the other wing the aileron goes down which is aerodynamically equal to add flaps (which is what the Hornet does): it increases the airfoil of the wing which, yes, adds lift but also a lot of drag. This drag is used to give directional control on the ground at higher (air)speeds. The more wind, the better control. 

For the Speedbrake: 

Aerodynamically and by definition a speedbrake adds drag by itself. For example the spreading surfaces of the F16 or the F104 or the Saber are speedbrakes, they put surface into the airstream. 
 

devices that extend vertically on top of wings are generally not speedbrakes but spoilers. They are less meant to reduce speed but primarily to spoil and destroy any lift. Airliners use them extensively at touchdown as they land far above stall speed and actually still fly when they touch the ground. To make them settle down and have effective wheel brakes spoilers are extended. 
 

So this brings me to the Hornet. I‘m not entirely sure (myself) how to define them. Military manuals and those written by fans of the hobby usually refer to them as speed brakes as they are used so. But with the Hornet it‘s not that easy. The Hornet has tiny wings far back and the whole body of the airplane (sry I don‘t remember the english word for it atm) creates a large amount of lift. So with this barn door extending on the top of the Hornet this is probably both, a spoiler and a speedbrake. Which gives it a big point in extending them after touchdown. As a carrier aircraft the Hornet has notoriously weak wheel brakes and adding the speed brakes or spoilers or what ever as well as pulling back on the stick has always helped me slowing down a lot on land based runways. 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Ephedrin

[razo+r]

13 minutes ago, Ephedrin said:

...the Hornet has notoriously weak wheel brakes ...

For landings on airports, directly after touchdown, quickly move your throttle a bit, out of idle and right back. This will get the engines out of flight-idle to ground-idle, from 69% to 64%. You can really feel the lack or the addition of those 5% power.

[Ephedrin]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb razo+r:

For landings on airports, directly after touchdown, quickly move your throttle a bit, out of idle and right back. This will get the engines out of flight-idle to ground-idle, from 69% to 64%. You can really feel the lack or the addition of those 5% power.

Aaaahhh, it doesn‘t do that itself?! Thank you!!!

[Tholozor]

45 minutes ago, Ephedrin said:

Aaaahhh, it doesn‘t do that itself?! Thank you!!!

The reason this happens is that the physical throttles in the aircraft have a physical stop that engages with weight-off-wheels that keeps them at flight idle, and it retracts with weight-on-wheels to permit ground idle. As far as the sim is concerned, if the digital command input of the player's throttle has not made any adjustments when the WonW sensor retracts the flight idle stop, the throttle will maintain it's position until an update is received, hence the need for a slight 'pump' to refresh the input.

[Steel Jaw]

On 6/2/2018 at 2:44 AM, Steel Jaw said:

Hi brothers,

Anyone else having trouble on landing as soon as WOW with the NWS always automatically on? I'm swerving off the runway before I can disable it

Cause for me BTW was not having anti slid enabled.  Great other info here though.