Very limited IFF - Can someone briefly explain what that means?

[Mr_sukebe]

Before I get home and fire up the update that will give us IFF, can someone please give us a quick heads up on what the limited IFF means. e.g.

- Is it automatically enabled or do we turn it on?

- Does this mean that the F18 will now broadcast an IFF signal, such that friendlies know who were are and won't shoot at us?

- Does this mean that our F18 is capable of understanding IFF signals from other friendly aircraft, such that we can avoid shooting them?

 

Apologies if they sound like really basic questions, but it would have been good to include clarity.

[razo+r]

Friendly planes have always been able to see and IFF the hornet, just the hornet not others. Now you can IFF any plane.

[Britchot]

Works automatically with RWS. Wags posted something and I'm trying to find it.

[Onni]

This reads on the mini-updates thread:

 

Probably for the next update will be an initial implementation of IFF for the Hornet. Attached are a couple of looks.

 

A diamond-shaped TD box indicated a negative IFF response (hostile), whereas a standard, square TD box indicates a valid IFF handshake (friendly). Initially, this will be done automatically as part of an STT/LTWS/DTWS (L&S and D2) designation.

 

At a later point we will investigate a more in-depth IFF system using the encrypted-code system. However, this is a VERY complex system that will take a lot of time, and we currently have much higher priorities. Furthermore, a code-based IFF system will also involve a significant re-write of portions of the AI code.

 

Also, in the next update we changed the manual (M) radio modulation selection logic to be more realistic based on recent information. The modulation selection will now be in a single Option Select Window and toggle between AM and FM (rather than separate OSW windows). The inability of an entered frequency not be saved (reverts back to default) has also been resolved.

 

Thanks!

[Mad_Max2]

IFF has always been hush hush. Will be interested in seeing what they do with it in the future, not just with the Hornet, but with all DCS. If I'm not mistaken IFF is limited on all modules to a simple form.

 

 

Haven't checked out the new patch but I'm anxious to try it out. Be able to do CAP without my butt puckered now! lol!

[JamieFLUK]

I read somewhere a few ago that some modules don't work with the IFF, and will show as diamond even if friendly. Can anyone confirm?

[POLARIS1]

IFF has always been hush hush. Will be interested in seeing what they do with it in the future, not just with the Hornet, but with all DCS. If I'm not mistaken IFF is limited on all modules to a simple form.

 

 

Haven't checked out the new patch but I'm anxious to try it out. Be able to do CAP without my butt puckered now! lol!

 

Actually IFF is pretty well documented.

What is not documented and is classified is mode 4 which is most reliable in times of war and therefore classified to prevent intentional false positive.

IFF, basically, is an electronic interrogation: a receiver checks for transmissions with certain data which either have or don't have a certain "code".

For example: if "1" is defined as friend then any other answer recieved other than 1 is regarded as foe.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Works automatically with RWS. Wags posted something and I'm trying to find it.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3530763&postcount=61

[_e10]

Works automatically with RWS. Wags posted something and I'm trying to find it.

Uhm... I can only see if friend or foe when I have a contact locked in STT...

Is there any other way yet to IFF than locking and watching the shape in the HUD?

[Mr_sukebe]

Thanks for the clarification chaps.

[Santi871]

Uhm... I can only see if friend or foe when I have a contact locked in STT...

Is there any other way yet to IFF than locking and watching the shape in the HUD?

 

Not yet, it requires radar modes not yet implemented

[jojo]

A diamond-shaped TD box indicated a negative IFF response (hostile), whereas a standard, square TD box indicates a valid IFF handshake (friendly). Initially, this will be done automatically as part of an STT/LTWS/DTWS (L&S and D2) designation.

 

At a later point we will investigate a more in-depth IFF system using the encrypted-code system. However, this is a VERY complex system that will take a lot of time, and we currently have much higher priorities. Furthermore, a code-based IFF system will also involve a significant re-write of portions of the AI code.

 

No IFF answer = unknown, not hostile :music_whistling:

 

For now it doesn't really matters, but it will when the IFF simulation will be improved.

 

Also, mission designers may be able to put some neutral aircraft soon :music_whistling:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=212059&page=2

post #19

[TaoGaming]

At the moment it only checks if the Targetbox is in the HUD area. Is that intentional or is that a bug?

When I lock a friendly track that is not direktly infront of me it will display it as a diamond and only change it if I navigate it infront of the plane to a box.

If I lock a friendly target that already is infront of my plane it immediately displays a box.

 

Has anyone else encountered this behaviour?

[Endorphine]

No IFF answer = unknown, not hostile :music_whistling:

 

For now it doesn't really matters, but it will when the IFF simulation will be improved.

 

Also, mission designers may be able to put some neutral aircraft soon :music_whistling:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=212059&page=2

post #19

 

 

Neutral coalition means civilian air-traffic ?

[jojo]

Neutral coalition means civilian air-traffic ?

 

As I understand what is written in the linked topic, it is anything that isn’t Blue or Red side.

So you could have at the same time neutral Su-27 and hostile Su-27, making the ID process very “interesting” = you can’t rely on IFF neither on NCTR or RWR, only behaviour and VID :music_whistling:

 

Yet I wonder if “neutral” fighters would react when engaged, with “return fire” ROE for instance ?

 

AFAIK civilian air traffic depends on “mods”.

 

A lot of things to test...

[Weltensegler]

For a while I thought at least in FC3 planes the code is as simple as "other coalition = show as enemy".

But then I had countless times getting hit in the F15 and flying back home damaged to get fired on and killed by my own air defenses on final... which implies that ED actually already has a more complicated system in place than I thought there is.

Will be interesting to see where ED is gonna go with that.

 

Would be cool though if there was a radio option to tell the airfield AI to "hold fire, my IFF is shot"... since I can't just squawk a safety code :)

[Tholozor]

I imagine that a 'neutral' target would still appear as a 'hostile' in the Hornet because the IFF is a binary system; the targeted aircraft either responds with the correct code ("handshake") or doesn't, regardless of faction.

 

Might have to start making callouts for bogeys on the net if you've got AWACS.

[jojo]

IFF doesn’ answer “hostile”. If it doesn’t receive any answer it is “unknown”. :smilewink:

[TaoGaming]

But it should still display the unknown contact as a diamond right?

Only positive IFF responds get the box treatment, or am I missing something.

[GGTharos]

You are technically correct, but the friendly/hostile designation based on response depends on what your IFF can actually do ;)

 

 

 

IFF doesn’ answer “hostile”. If it doesn’t receive any answer it is “unknown”. :smilewink:

[QuiGon]

There seems to be lot of confusion about this topic, so let me try to make some things clear how IFF works, both in reality and in DCS.

 

Reality:

When you IFF someone, then you either get a positive or a negative response. A positive response means the contact is friendly. A negative response means the contact is unkown. A positive response requires the target aircraft to have its IFF transponder to be running in the correct mode and on the correct code, so even if the target is actually a friendly aircraft it can still give a negative response if its IFF-transponder is not configured correctly or turned off.

 

DCS:

DCS doesn't care about IFF-transponders in the target aircraft. If the target is friendly, meaning on the same side (blue/red), then it will give a positive response. This is even true if the target aircraft has its IFF-transponder turned off or doesn't even has a (compatible) IFF-transponder (e.g. WW2 aircraft). DCS just checks the side of the target aircraft (it gets the information from the DCS engine) and always shows it 100% reliable as friendly if it is a friendly aircraft. So far there have only been two sides in DCS (red/blue) which are always hostile to each other. That means, if the target is not friendly it is hostile. But the devs are currently working on a third neutral side, which will make things more interesting, as contacts that are not friendly can be either hostile or neutral and neutral aircrafts are not limited to civilian aircraft. They can also be military aircraft of a neutral country. In the future they also want to implement a more advanced IFF system, which then hase to configured properly and turned on in order to give positive responses to friendlies, just like in real life. But for now it's just that simple: friendly IFF target = friendly aircraft, unkown IFF target = hostile target.

 

Some years ago, I wrote some stuff about how flawed the IFF system in DCS is and how it could be improved here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=161240

Edited June 21, 2018 by QuiGon

[Beamscanner]

I've read the RL Hornet manual on the CIT.

 

Turns out that it can be programmed on the DDI however the pilot wants. If the pilot wants only the mode 4 response to auto ID the target as hostile(mode 4 yes = Friend// Mode 4 no = Hostile), they can in fact do that. There's alot of freedom with it. That being said, while what we have now is simple, it is potentially accurate.

 

 

For those wondering what he means by using it in RWS:

 

RWS is still WIP and is missing "trackfiles" which can be displayed (similar to TWS). A total of 3 trackfiles can be displayed in RWS (LTWS, L&S, DT2). When you have a trackfile displayed will show the target HAFU symbology which can be determined by the CIT.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Beamscanner

[wolle]

I wonder why square and diamond was chosen, because there is danger of confusion if one is in a banked turn, a square becomes a diamond when looked at from a 45 degree bank angle. Think square/triangle or square/pentagon would be easier to distinguish. Wonder what the real life symbology is...

[Alphamale]

I think the symbol should be a diamond and not a square that has been rotated 90 degrees. Right now, we have the latter. And yes, there is a difference. When you're turning with head movement on, it is easy to mistake a diamond for a square with your head turning. A diamond should be a rhombus with four equal sides but no 90 degree angles. The mind is quicker to see that kind of figure and distinguish it from a square rotated...OR we could go with enemy diamond red and friendly green... :)

[unknown]

I wonder why square and diamond was chosen, because there is danger of confusion if one is in a banked turn, a square becomes a diamond when looked at from a 45 degree bank angle. Think square/triangle or square/pentagon would be easier to distinguish. Wonder what the real life symbology is...

 

I had the same thought but the square and the diamond are rotating with your aircraft. The top line of the square is always "looking" up to your heading tape and the corner of the diamond is also always looking up to the heading tape.