RWR and IR Missiles

[deltaleader]

Please help me understand if this is correct in Real Life for the Hornet.

 

 

When an IR missile is launched toward me, I do not get a RWR indication or any indication that a missile is inbound. Is this the way it is in Real Life?

 

 

 

If that is correct, then how does the AI aircraft I target know when I shoot an IR missile at them? I know the AI detects it because they instantly start popping flares only once I launch the AIM 9.

[Kang]

That is correct. Since heat seekers are fairly short-range missiles you are possibly visible to the pilot. Mind you the AI has that questionable advantage of being able to scan its entire field of view constantly. In other words: if it is technically possible for the pilot to see you launching the missile, the AI does see you.

 

You could do the same on the defence.

[Deano87]

Yup.. You'll get no RWR warning from a IR missile launch with the F-18. The AI cheats constantly... Hence why I basically only fly online because then being sneaky actually works :P

[Lieuie]

As the name suggests the Radar warning receiver detects radar returns it interprets what they mean and warns you accordingly.

 

The AIM-9 is a heat seeking missile which means it doesn't have anything to do with the radar other than telling the missile where to look to spot the bandit. That means that the RWR can't detect a heat seeking missile. Some planes do have a system to detect them like the A-10 and I think the M2000 but the Hornet doesn't.

 

Now when it comes to AI I don't really know but I am guessing they are detecting them visually. In my experience they do release countermeasures when you are on their six and have radar lock even when you don't have missiles like the BFM campaign for the F-5.

[Zyll]

RWR detects radar reflections, and an IR missile does not emit radar signals, so that's why you don't get a warning.

 

You need to rely on visual scanning in order to pick up a heat seeker launched your way.

[deltaleader]

I see what you all are saying...scanning and getting visual on threats is the key. Only problem is in DCS, I cannot see other planes unless they are within a few miles. The visual representation in this sim does not seem to be accurate and I do not know how to fix it.

 

 

In real life I can go outside and spot planes 7-8 miles away easily. But not in DCS :( and I don't really use labels...

[Deano87]

Try changing the label setting to "dot" (I think) in the options and turn them on. can make things much easier to see. It'll put a dark dot where the enemy aircraft is to make it easier to spot.. Most online servers have it disabled though but it will work for single player stuff...

[Zyll]

You will have an easier time seeing an IR missile streaking towards you, but I agree, visual spotting of aircraft is difficult. There are numerous threads on this topic elsewhere in the forums, it's not a unique problem to the Hornet of course.

[DAZnBLAST]

I'm absolutely certain British aircraft have sensors developed by BAE systems, which detect incoming IR threats and release countermeasures automatically. I know the Apache AH1 has this system. I remember reading it somewhere along with how the MOD ripped out the engines and put more powerful Rolls Royce engines in along with new BAE stuff.

[blkspade]

I see what you all are saying...scanning and getting visual on threats is the key. Only problem is in DCS, I cannot see other planes unless they are within a few miles. The visual representation in this sim does not seem to be accurate and I do not know how to fix it.

 

 

In real life I can go outside and spot planes 7-8 miles away easily. But not in DCS :( and I don't really use labels...

 

What size planes are you spotting though? Spotting an airliner and a fighter jet would be drastically different. IRL a F-16 for example can be really hard to spot beyond 2 miles. I've seen both the thunderbirds and blue angles (small jets with high visibility paint) at beach front airshows, and they are very hard to maintain visual or acquire at shallow angles around that range.

[GGTharos]

In real life fighters are rarely spotted at that distance unless you know exactly where to look - and it's not like 'going outside' inside that cockpit, you have other things to do so your visual scan must be practiced and regimented.

 

 

 

I see what you all are saying...scanning and getting visual on threats is the key. Only problem is in DCS, I cannot see other planes unless they are within a few miles. The visual representation in this sim does not seem to be accurate and I do not know how to fix it.

 

 

In real life I can go outside and spot planes 7-8 miles away easily. But not in DCS :( and I don't really use labels...

[will-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_approach_warning_system

[GGTharos]

... which the hornet has none of.

[probad]

building situational awareness is a key discipline in real life which video gamers largely forego

 

between coordinated radar sweeps by your flight and ewr from fleet and airborne assets, pilots irl are not dependent on "spotting the sneaky ir missile at 2 miles" because all efforts go towards not being ambushable in the first place.

[Anonymous User]

The ALR67 won't detect an IR seeker, but if that missile has been cued by the launch aircraft radar then you will have indications you are locked, which can be a 'subtle' reminder to get your eyes outside and look for a launch

[QuiGon]

I'm absolutely certain British aircraft have sensors developed by BAE systems, which detect incoming IR threats and release countermeasures automatically. I know the Apache AH1 has this system. I remember reading it somewhere along with how the MOD ripped out the engines and put more powerful Rolls Royce engines in along with new BAE stuff.

That's a missile warning system which some aircraft have. It detects missiles by their IR signature. The A-10C (both in real life and in DCS) is equipped with such a system for example, but not the F/A-18C.

[VDV]

FA-18C doesnt need thah kind of IR missile warning system, because it operate at much higher altitude and speed, compared to AH-64 or A-10C.

Edited October 24, 2018 by VDV

[Eviscerador]

As far as I know, the missile warning system doesn't detect any kind of IR signal, it just detects a smoke plume but it can't discriminate between friendly and enemy missiles, IR, laser guided or radar missiles.

 

In fact I remember one mission in the A10C where you work with a pair of AH-64 with full hellfire loadout. Man that missile warning got crazy!

 

Unfortunately the Hornet doesn't have one.

[corvinus]

As far as I know, the missile warning system doesn't detect any kind of IR signal, it just detects a smoke plume ...

Detecting a smoke plume is detecting an IR signal, or better a signature (brightness temperature, size, contrast etc.). All bodies emit IR waves, bodies that have a higher temperature than their surroundings can be detected by an IR sensor.

[Silversmith]

I believe DASS on the Typhoon also does detect IR missiles, again I assume that would be by the missile's own IR signature from its propulsion system/air friction. That said if properly employed most IR missiles are short range with a correspondingly short flight time, so eyeball coupled with good situational awareness will always be best defence. Of course to fire an IR missile (even in the Hornet) you don't have to have a Radar lock first, so you may well get no Radar lock warning on the RWR, Particularly with the HMS which is coupled to the 9x's IR sensor, so the missile sensor looks where the HMS is looking. (same for Typhoon with 9X or ASRAAM , and ditto for Russian aircraft that have a HMS and Archer). Or with a 9M you can acquire IR lock using missile sensor boresight or scan without radar. In DCS of course the Gazelle is a nice example where IR missiles are used without radar.. and the Gazelle is seriously LETHAL as an A to A asset for low altitude stealthy interception.!

Edited October 24, 2018 by Silversmith
Fix Typos

[Eviscerador]

In DCS of course the Gazelle is a nice example where IR missiles are used without radar.. and the Gazelle is seriously LETHAL as an A to A asset for low altitude stealthy interception.!

 

It is my most flown vessel in BF just because of that. Not only you have capture and cargo potential, you have RWR and you can defend yourself.

 

If only the FM were a tiiiny bit better...

[QuiGon]

I believe DASS on the Typhoon also does detect IR missiles, again I assume that would be by the missile's own IR signature from its propulsion system/air friction. That said if properly employed most IR missiles are short range with a correspondingly short flight time, so eyeball coupled with good situational awareness will always be best defence. Of course to fire an IR missile (even in the Hornet) you don't have to have a Radar lock first, so you may well get no Radar lock warning on the RWR, Particularly with the HMS which is coupled to the 9x's IR sensor, so the missile sensor looks where the HMS is looking. (same for Typhoon with 9X or ASRAAM , and ditto for Russian aircraft that have a HMS and Archer). Or with a 9M you can acquire IR lock using missile sensor boresight or scan without radar. In DCS of course the Gazelle is a nice example where IR missiles are used without radar.. and the Gazelle is seriously LETHAL as an A to A asset for low altitude stealthy interception.!

I don't know of anyone using AIM-9X with the Typhoon. The UK is using the ASRAAM while all other Typhoon users use the IRIS-T afaik. I'm not sure if this applies to the ASRAAM as well, but I know that the IRIS-T is capable of attacking targets behind the Typhoon. The pilot can use the DASS to assign targets that are on his 6 o'clock to the missile.

[Eddie]

I believe DASS on the Typhoon also does detect IR missiles, again I assume that would be by the missile's own IR signature from its propulsion system/air friction. That said if properly employed most IR missiles are short range with a correspondingly short flight time, so eyeball coupled with good situational awareness will always be best defence. Of course to fire an IR missile (even in the Hornet) you don't have to have a Radar lock first, so you may well get no Radar lock warning on the RWR, Particularly with the HMS which is coupled to the 9x's IR sensor, so the missile sensor looks where the HMS is looking. (same for Typhoon with 9X or ASRAAM , and ditto for Russian aircraft that have a HMS and Archer). Or with a 9M you can acquire IR lock using missile sensor boresight or scan without radar. In DCS of course the Gazelle is a nice example where IR missiles are used without radar.. and the Gazelle is seriously LETHAL as an A to A asset for low altitude stealthy interception.!

 

MAWS on Typhoon is an active RADAR based system.

 

MWS on the A-10C uses the UV signature from the missile's motor, not IR.

[Kang]

Point remains though that these missile warning systems don't tell you that a missile is actually launched at you, but rather that a missile was launched at all. You can easily see this distinction by overflying an area in your A-10C while - say - a group of Ka-50s launch Vikhrs at tanks. The MWS will light up all the time.

Either way the F/A-18C doesn't have any such system. Generally if you have an enemy fighter 'sneaking up' on your rear to fairly close range, where most IR-guided missiles will be used (there are a few exceptions but yea...), something else went wrong a long time ago. Among other things that your wingman probably needs an eye check.

The rules for, say, an A-10C are somewhat different, because its missions involve going low and slow, or in other words: right in the land of infrared SAMs, which are mostly nasty for their lack of warning. The Hornet is generally either flying above this particular type of threat, or crossing through its short range quickly enough to bank on reaction time.

[EcceHomo]

F-18C has no missile approaching warning system.ALR-67 can only detect the launch of radar guided missiles, which is powerless for IR guided missiles. But F-18E is equipped with AAR-57, so that it can detect the approaching of missiles.