'Flaring' the Hornet on landing

[Kenan]

I know you can't flare while landing on the boat (duh!) but I have no problem doing this while landing on a land-based runway. I usually manage to flare, add some throttle and gently touch the runway and that's pretty much it.

 

 

If I understand correctly (and from what I've seen in the "Jetstream" doc), land-based landings are pretty much the same as landing on the boat, i.e. controlled "crash landing".

 

 

My question is, why not doing the standard flare instead?

 

 

Perhaps DCS model is wrong (giving impression that you can land the Hornet the "standard way" when you in fact cannot) OR is there a different reason why the pilots IRL do it the way they do it?

 

 

Seems to me (again, unless the DCS got it wrong) there's really no need to stress the landing gear at all and you can just do the usual flare (time it propertly and simply gently skid down the runway).

[SharkBaztard]

I believe you can flare. I pretty sure many hornet pilots do when landing on ground.

 

 

 

 

 

It may be to practice. You only land so many times, why not practice for the boat as its the one that will kill you.

 

 

 

 

I'm no expert but I have seen and heard pilots talk about the hornet being very smooth to land if you wish.

[Lex Talionis]

.. sure you can flair. We flared at the field to not stress the gimbal on the L POD. As long as it didn't impede on habit patterns for when you did go to the boat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would just stick the landing, nothings going to break ;)

Edited November 25, 2018 by Lex Talionis

[Mover]

Couple of reasons.

 

1) Habit patterns.

 

2) This jet is prone to planing link issues. Flaring makes you more susceptible and can be harder to control should the planing link fail.

 

Otherwise, it's a great jet to flare. I flared all the time as an adversary pilot that didn't go to the boat. Easiest airplane to land smoothly I've ever flown.

[Binary]

Maybe nice to know: according to NATOPS, flared landings have a weight limitation of 39k pounds while unrestricted “normal” (aka. Controlled crash) landings have a weight limitation of 33k pounds.

[Fonz_408]

The way I understand flaring is that if you fly the hornet at a 8.1AOA its perfectly flared for landing.. so there is no need to flare as you already are..

[Mover]

Mover that's a reference to the trailing link gear and some squirrelly behavior, yes? I found this:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=BdG1AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT135&lpg=PT135&dq=planing+link&source=bl&ots=OANc9QmTxq&sig=u2HZDXaSdSkt20_n4-gzig4UOwI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiskvT6ju7eAhWutVkKHeIUDMkQ6AEwB3oECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=planing%20link&f=false

 

Yes. It's a very serious and dangerous emergency. My squadron lost a jet that way a few years before I showed up. Thankfully the pilot made it out okay.

 

The way I understand flaring is that if you fly the hornet at a 8.1AOA its perfectly flared for landing.. so there is no need to flare as you already are..

 

8.1 is on speed AOA.

[Tenkom]

I feel the jet sort of flares all by itself. If I come in at on speed AoA with around 3 degrees sink angle once I get close to the ground the sinkrate lowers. Maybe it's the ground effect? In any case the landings tends to be very soft.

[riboyster]

Why flair when you can just finesse the throttle?

[Eagle7907]

Maybe nice to know: according to NATOPS, flared landings have a weight limitation of 39k pounds while unrestricted “normal” (aka. Controlled crash) landings have a weight limitation of 33k pounds.

 

 

 

That’s the way I see it as well. If higher than 33k, you must FLARE, therefore can’t be shipboard landing. Otherwise, slap that deck like a mo-fo. Makes sense, too much stress on the gear if landing without flare at 39k compared to 33k.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Kenan]

Not to open a new thread (similar subject), I was watching these videos and this pilot's decent rate was pretty high (it appears well above 700-800 fpm on touchdown):

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what are the acceptable decent rates for land-based and carrier landings, in general?

 

 

I thought somewhere between 700-800 fpm was the norm?

Edited November 26, 2018 by Kenan

[Eagle7907]

'Flaring' the Hornet on landing

 

Looks like 1200fpm at touchdown. But that’s a ship landing. Descent rates with a flare would be -400 or less depending on how finesse you want it to be. Less is obviously more smoother.

 

The only thing I’ve seen regarding why it isn’t ideal to flare is it MAY cause the WOW sensors to not close thus not allowing the engine to decel to ground idle immediately.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Edited November 26, 2018 by Eagle7907

[Surrexen]

It's Navy just bang em on :)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Not to open a new thread (similar subject), I was watching these videos and this pilot's decent rate was pretty high (it appears well above 700-800 fpm on touchdown):

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what are the acceptable decent rates for land-based and carrier landings, in general?

 

 

I thought somewhere between 700-800 fpm was the norm?

 

Interesting videos. The second one in particular it looked like the VS suddenly jumps at the last moment for no appreciable reason (VV stays in same place).

[112th_Rossi]

I would imagine it's not in NATOPS to prevent skill fade on carrier landings. Hornets land on the ground as if they were landing on a carrier to keep the skill up.

[Bankler]

So what are the acceptable decent rates for land-based and carrier landings, in general?

I thought somewhere between 700-800 fpm was the norm?

 

I was wondering the same thing, so I submitted a question to The Fighter Pilot Podcast and was lucky enough having Jell-O doing some research and giving me an answer. Listen to 07:10 in this episode:

 

https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/podcast/022-test-pilot-school/

 

Spoiler:

It's hard to say and it depends on aircraft weight. The aircraft will give you a warning message after touchdown if it was too rough.

[Bankler]

Otherwise, it's a great jet to flare. I flared all the time as an adversary pilot that didn't go to the boat. Easiest airplane to land smoothly I've ever flown.

 

What was your technique? Did you just soften it by increasing the throttle a little, and/or did you raise your nose a little?

[Iberian]

Flaring also increases landing distance down the runway due to floating on the ground effect, so caution with that on short runways.

[metzger]

I was wondering the same thing, so I submitted a question to The Fighter Pilot Podcast and was lucky enough having Jell-O doing some research and giving me an answer. Listen to 07:10 in this episode:

 

https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/podcast/022-test-pilot-school/

 

Spoiler:

It's hard to say and it depends on aircraft weight. The aircraft will give you a warning message after touchdown if it was too rough.

 

Nice. Would be cool if we can have those codes modeled :)

[aceofspades9963]

Like Mover was saying flaring can cause planning link failures because the shock absorbers don't collapse enough if you are light causing the planing arms to not lock in place , thats why if you are heavy its authorized because the weight will collapse them. Most of the time pilots will give a quick burst of throttle before touchdown to lower the decent rate.

[Kenan]

I was wondering the same thing, so I submitted a question to The Fighter Pilot Podcast and was lucky enough having Jell-O doing some research and giving me an answer. Listen to 07:10 in this episode:

 

https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/podcast/022-test-pilot-school/

 

Spoiler:

It's hard to say and it depends on aircraft weight. The aircraft will give you a warning message after touchdown if it was too rough.

 

Thanks for the info!

[MooneyTail]

Like many things, it all depends. You should flare if you are over your max trap weight or risk putting undue stress on something such as the aforementioned L POD. It also depends on the field you are landing at. If there is a lens on the field, you might as well practice the perishable skill of ball flying. Additionally, if you are landing at a field with a short runway, you want to plant it close to the numbers. However, if you're at a field with a long runway and there is no lens, it makes more sense to flare to save the airframe and components a little wear and tear. At least that's how Hawkeyes did it.

[Mover]

What was your technique? Did you just soften it by increasing the throttle a little, and/or did you raise your nose a little?

 

You could just raise the nose, typically. Put the velocity vector (Flight path marker? whichever it's called in this jet) just below the horizon line and hold it.

[Eagle7907]

In this area it’s all technique and I can only think of two schools of thought.

 

1) time the increase of thrust while on speed to reduce the sink rate for touchdown.

 

2) Trim to slightly fast AOA red/yellow. Conventionally flare to bring VV to a hair below horizon while smoothly reducing thrust to touchdown at 8.1 AOA.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Eldur]

Just realize that when you flare, you pitch the nose up and present a whole lot more wing area to the direction of the airflow, the alpha will go way up, your drag component will go up and you're gonna get slow fast. Bear that in mind if you need to go around the airplane will feel very sluggish until you get that airflow back.

 

That's exactly why I do this ashore. Use that feature. I set my radar alt warning tone to 40ft, come in at a standard 3° glideslope and as soon as it goes off, throttles idle and feather the descent, works great for me

 

It's really about not doing that on the boat however

 

Gotta take into account this though:

 

Flaring also increases landing distance down the runway due to floating on the ground effect, so caution with that on short runways.

 

Just like in any other plane

Edited November 27, 2018 by Eldur