F-8 Crusader

[MostlyHarmless]

I would say that I am a bit bummed at the news of the F-8J(junk) as opposed to the other -420 equipped F-8H(hotrod) as some of the pilots referred to them, but who am I kidding, I'm just thrilled that we will be getting one of the final versions of the F-8!!

Glad to know which version it will be to continue to research it to build a sim pit. Mainly because I happened to have the shell of an MK-F7 seat ready to be restored in my office.

If anyone has resources they can recommend on dimensions for the cockpit and forward fuselage please let me know. While I have a 1:1 cockpit panel to print out along with an original panel section to scale it from to scratch build the rest of the panels from, there are a lot of key dimensions that I don't have access to.

Edited April 26, 2019 by MostlyHarmless

[Robert31178]

That. Is. Incredible! I know they are two totally different planes, but would your 1:1 panel size work for a Corsair? Either one lol.....I love them bofe....

 

~Rob

[MostlyHarmless]

That. Is. Incredible! I know they are two totally different planes, but would your 1:1 panel size work for a Corsair? Either one lol.....I love them bofe....

 

~Rob

The panels are too different to interchange, I bought mine through a seller on eBay, they also have A-7 series panels available. The price wasn't too bad and the seller went above and beyond in throwing in extras for me so if you are interested in either I highly recommend it. I also bought a landing gear control side panel so that I could confirm the scale before trying to use a router to start fabricating the backing panels and gauges. I'm cheating a little bit in that I'm building the pit as a mixed reality setup using VR for the visuals and just having all the switches and controls in their respective positions. While I will be finish the interior to an extent, I'm not worrying about putting monitors behind the gauges or anything like that so that between painting and then using the printed panel sections for inside the gauges I can get by.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

And here I was going to challenge you to a bout of fisticuffs for disrespecting my darling Juliet, but that is some impressive stuff.

[CarbonFox]

According to the Update post, this F-8J is getting the more powerful J57-P420 over the P-20A engine so what were the big differences between the F-8 Hotel and Juliet?

[Hiromachi]

Just to post some cool stuff, I've been going through a new book which indicates, that in order to utilize French missiles, F-8E had to be upgraded with Magnavox AN/APQ-104 radar and AN/AWG-4 Fire Control System. Compared to F-8J, which is equipped with AN/APQ-124 or AN/APQ-124A radar and same Fire Control System, it seems to me that on a hardware level, there should be no issue with using those R.530 on F-8J either ?

 

 

[CarbonFox]

It would indeed be awesome if the Crusader in-game will be able to carry the 530D.

[MostlyHarmless]

According to the Update post, this F-8J is getting the more powerful J57-P420 over the P-20A engine so what were the big differences between the F-8 Hotel and Juliet?

 

A gentleman by the name off Tom Weinel who went by the name Superheat on a number of model forums was an F-8 combat pilot with the navy and flew a number of the versions and gave quite a bit of information on their differences before he passed away a couple of years ago.

 

The J had the boundary layer system that allowed for a slower (15ish knot) approach speed but at the cost of engine air being bypassed out to it instead of thrust out the tail pipe. Some reports say that it would be difficult to execute a wave off without having to go into afterburner to start to climb out. The solution was to use the more powerful engine but that still didn’t totally solve the problem. It also had a higher empty weight from the additional strengthening that the wing under went resulting in lower performance. The H apparently was also available with the same engine as the J allowing for a stripped down hot rod that, while it flew a faster approach speed didn’t need to go to burner to wave off.

 

The J had a different ECM setup that some things I have read stated that it took additional space behind the cockpit reducing the ammunition capacity for the quad 20mm cannons. That said the guns have a history of jamming if they were used during hard maneuvers. So having the later ECM gives the advantage to the J if they would leave you stuck with ammo in the bins anyway.

 

The other big change was the radar, the radar in the J was a bit rushed to make it to Southeast Asia for combat and often failed, stories of common practice were to have the lead plane on day missions to have the working radar while the wingman used the nonfunctional ones while for night and IFR the wingman would have the working radar to stay in formation with the lead while the lead watched visually and navigated. There is additional question of the increase in effectiveness of the additional range for the new radar even when working as some reports stated that you still needed vectoring to actually engage anything with it. All in all I think that it was an improvement over the H, but the H was reliable, and that goes a long way in combat.

[Hiromachi]

There is a fantastic read on that topic which I'll attachat to the post so you all can benefit from reading it.

All in all, MostlyHarmless is right as F-8J received mixed reviews, but some of the complains are related more to Vietnam War conditions rather than inherent aircraft flaws:

The F-8D and F-8E versions are sometimes referred to as ‘all-weather fighters’, but this is a bit overplayed. All fighters of this era needed either a surface radar station or an airborne radar platform to find the enemy at longer range and guide the fighter to a point where it could lock on to the enemy and take over the intercept itself. While the initial version of the Crusader, the F-8A, possessed nothing more than a ranging radar for its guns, Crusaders beginning with the B model had air-intercept radars. The F-8C’s AN/APS-67 could lock on to a target at 16 miles, but with “no angle tracking.” Al Lansdowne found the F-8D’s AN/APQ-83 to be an improvement, but Jim Alderink, one of the first Top Gun instructors, regarded that radar to be a piece of garbage, and it did not help that pilots did not get enough time to train in using the radar in flight.

 

The F-8E’s AN/APQ-94 could detect aircraft at longer ranges than those on earlier marks of the F-8, and the ‘screen resolution’ was “somewhat better”, making it easier for pilots to use. It could detect a MiG-sized aircraft as far out as 30 miles, and it might detect a larger aircraft at 50-60 miles. VF-53 found the “APQ-94 reliability [to be] high, and routine BARCAP/FORCECAP tactics were predicated on its utilization.” Pilots relied on it during night operations but emphasized visual searches during daytime. The AN/APQ-94 could track targets 45 degrees off centerline and 30 degrees down, and it included upgrades to improve its abilities against MiGs: “guns automatic ranging only and . . . boresight angle track.” The radar could achieve a lock-on at 25 miles, and functioned in the “X-band frequency between 8,700 and 9,600 megacyles”.

 

The F-8E also had an AN/AAS-15 infrared search and track system which displayed the azimuth of the target on the radar screenfrequency between 8,700 and 9,600 megacyles”. The F-8E also had an AN/AAS-15 infrared search and track system which displayed the azimuth of the target on the radar screen.

 

When Vought upgraded 136 F-8Es to the F-8J variant, the avionics that came with it received mixed reviews from the fleet. According to one veteran the new radar was not reliable. The Fleet Replacement Squadron, VF-124, found that “Although all modified F-8Js were fitted with an updated radar (the APQ-124 which replaced the APQ-94) which increased performance, range, and reliability, it was discovered that the modulators in the new radar failed frequently; thus, many fitted radar systems remained un-repaired while new modulators were supplied to fleet squadrons having higher priority on parts replacement.” A veteran of the first squadron to take F-8Js to the Tonkin Gulf, John Braly of VF-162, had nothing good to say about this variant. According to Braly, “The project test pilot, LCDR Ken Billue, had recommended it was NOT ready for fleet use, too many problems.” Braly noted that this was second hand information. He added, “I think the feelings of most of us that had good F-8 experience was that they took a perfectly good plane, the F-8E, and really screwed it up with added weight, a heavy Magnavox pulse-doppler radar that never worked, the BLC [boundary layer control] which slowed it up, but required too much power to maintain the glide slope and left nothing but after-burner to wave-off if needed, and downsizing of our 20mm ammo cans to make room for worthless ECM gear.” Pilots of VF-191, on the other hand, appreciated the intercept capabilities of the F-8Js when they received them in November 1968, and those of VF-51 found it easier to land because of the boundary layer control system.

 

The J-model upgrades produced a mixed bag of consequences for the aircraft’s performance. On the one hand the F-8J had a boundary layer control wing which lowered the approach speed by 15-18 knots, a larger horizontal control surface, armor plating, the ALQ-100 and APR-30 for ECM, the new radar, and modifications to the airframe that extended its life to 4000 hours. On the other hand, this added 2,000 pounds to the aircraft’s weight, and the use of engine bleed air for the boundary layer control reduced thrust by 1,000 pounds. It was slightly less maneuverable in combat. The F-8J lacked enough engine power “for a carrier deck technique or bolter approach wave off” when carrying 2 AIM-9Ds and 200 rounds of 20mm ammunition if the air temperature was greater than 85 degrees. The temporary fix was to land with minimum fuel, and the permanent fix was the more powerful J57-P420 engine, which VF-53 got before the 1970 cruise.

 

There seems to be a lot of confusion because of the way it was operated and conditions it was used. Radar usage complains over Vietnam may very well be reapplied to F4s, since both types had to rely on close combat rather than any attempts of BVR (of which only F4 was really capable with Sparrow missile). In general air combat over Nam was based a lot on visual identification:

Fighter pilots did not stick their heads into radar scopes over North Vietnam, ever!

 

I just think F-8J is going to be a blast.

an-examination-of-the-f-8-crusader-through-archival-sources.pdf

[schurem]

I'd like to wish leatherneck all the luck in building this machine. You'll have my fiddy bucks.

[Nodak]

${1}

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JROmHzavjA8

 

 

 

 

Launch crews had balls of steel.:thumbup:

Edited May 2, 2019 by Nodak

[Pikey]

Offering my support for this module, good luck, I'll be waiting for you as a customer.

[jojo]

It would indeed be awesome if the Crusader in-game will be able to carry the 530D.

 

 

I know this is confusing, it happens all the time, but R530 and Super 530D have nothing in common.

There is no reason to fit Super 530D on F-8J Crusader, and not even on F-8E(FN), it never happened. :smilewink:

[Wizard_03]

Will ours have in flight refueling blister?

[CarbonFox]

I know this is confusing, it happens all the time, but R530 and Super 530D have nothing in common.

There is no reason to fit Super 530D on F-8J Crusader, and not even on F-8E(FN), it never happened. :smilewink:

 

 

Well, my bad then.

 

 

So it's well known that the Colt Mk. 12 20mm cannons were prone to jamming when subjected to hard maneuvers. Wondering if this will be simulated in some fashion.

[WinterH]

Well, my bad then.

 

 

So it's well known that the Colt Mk. 12 20mm cannons were prone to jamming when subjected to hard maneuvers. Wondering if this will be simulated in some fashion.

 

Seein that MiG-21Bis is the first, and more or less only module simulating gun jams, it can be a possibility.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Will ours have in flight refueling blister?

 

I'd imagine so.

[Xilon_x]

[AG-51_Razor]

This is a modual that I am going to buy the first day available for pre-purchase! :thumbup:

[Airhunter]

OpgIfQxqIvU

[Devil 505]

The Navy fleet is starting to look better and better. Hopefully have the A-6 coming from Heatblur, The Crusader from Magnitude, and the A-7 in the pipeline with Razbam at some point. All we need now is someone to step up and do an official A-7 or F-4.

 

We need some US Navy Helo love too. Maybe an SH-60 or SH-2 Seasprite. CH-46 Sea Knight would be even better to go with the Harrier and Marines

[Hiromachi]

AH-1 Cobra would be nice to fly along Huey. And Gulf of Tonkin map.

[Robert31178]

"We need some US Navy Helo love too. Maybe an SH-60 or SH-2 Seasprite. CH-46 Sea Knight would be even better to go with the Harrier and Marines"

 

Or a CH-53.....

[Airhunter]

The F-4E will be coming from ED/Belsimtek eventually.

[Kazansky222]

F-8 and F-4 + Vietnam map = heaven.