Targanon Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 My Opinion .... I hope they release a suitable VR unit soon.. I was VR but was not that impressed, so I have gone back to my 4k screen and track ir.. I Think I'll waiting another 2 years before it gets to where I'll jump back in.. you may wonder why I have this opinion! Let me explain a little I have had 4K large screen I was able to get one. I have a very fast PC I spent big when the RIFT CV1 was released and got the best components at that time.. so yes my PC was awesome still is for its age 2080ti is not enough of an upgrade to bother.. The CV1 was awesome but I longed for the clear hi detailed Display.. I had with my 4K screen. I also wear glasses and found it most uncomfortable while using the rift.. SO in the pursuit of comfort I started playing on the 4k flat screen again more and more.. till one day I ws like could not be bothered with the VR at all I know I"ll go back but I'm not spending more money on second gen hopes of something that just isn't yet!! Oh! yeah this is just my opinion and has nothing to do with yours .. YES I loved the immersion.. I loved the feeling of being there..I love where it is going... I'm just waiting till it gets a few more stops down the line.. Targs, GTX 1080ti, Asus Hero XI, Intel 9900KF @4.2MHz, 32g DDR4@3200Mhz, 4x 1Tb SSD 1x 400g m.2mvme(boot), 28" Samsung 4k, Saitek X-56 Throttle/Warthog Stick and Saitek Pro Flight Pedals. Moduls All of the NATO jets, and all the choppers.. DEDi MP [62AW] The Blackbirds Brisbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streakeagle Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Unless you are strapped for cash, I see no reason why you can't have both. That is the route I have taken. I just upgraded to a 4K 49" TV, and it looks amazing. It not only makes DCS look great, but it also makes P3D look great. But I also got the Rift S based on Matt Wagner's post. It is a pleasant step up from the CV1. There are a few tradeoffs, but overall the Rift S visual quality is noticeably improved, particularly in the ability to read instruments without leaning in close or zooming in. I flip back and forth between 4K and Rift S on a whim... do I want to feel like I am inside the cockpit? Or do I want breathtaking graphics? I can't wait for a day when I can have both at a decent frame rate. 90 fps is pretty good for me. 120 or 144 with a wider field of view AND a pixels per degree of FOV comparable to my 4K display would be amazing. But I don't see the hardware reaching that level of performance anytime soon. Because I got the Rift S, my son now has my original Rift. But if the Rift S goes on sale, I may get him one, too. I like the fact that it uses a display port connection rather than HDMI and only one USB port. Pass through is also a nice feature at times. The only thing I am missing now is "capto gloves" or equivalent. I want to fly using my HOTAS and still be able to operate controls with my hands as well as see my hands moving in the game. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnadentod Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 ... The XTAL headset by VRgineers is what you're looking for. It's a professional unit. More costly than the other headset but miles ahead of them seriously. SweViver did a video on it just recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormeaten Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 @ED is partially guilty for that. Similar is with 90% games developers in other titles. Even some VR exclusive titles are not implementing already existing technologies to utilize some VR possibilities like for example Vulcan or DX12 which allow you to implement multiple GPU for VR usage in a way where single GPU render each eye. What is the point to buy eye tracking when there is no single title with Foveated rendering implementation. I don't understand ED priority policy when with such implementation of VR technology will directly affecting on performances and money users can save on hardware. On Vulcan, Nvidia is losing advantage over AMD GPU and even today without taking Navi in consideration old 2x Vega 56 will significantly outperform single RTX 2080ti. In the same time, we will save hundreds of money which could be easily spent on new DCS modules instead of on overpriced and unnecessary hardware to be able to run DCS with decent performances. ED think about it. I'm not just critisizing. Don't take it hard, my critic is constructive and has sense. Be the first who will implement such technology and provide benefit from it. This will not just save us some money it will attract new players as well. In a lot of aspects DCS is a superior product in the sim world but at the same time have a lot of issues which chase new players from it kept them on using an inferior product. So what has more sense, implement new technology and improve performance what will double the sale or keep just pumping new modules with lower sale point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 2D gaming just does nothing for me now. DCS on a screen it like flying at a drone station. Sure vr could do with higher res and more FOV but it’s still 10x better than a screen and looking at a miniature world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targanon Posted June 2, 2019 Author Share Posted June 2, 2019 yes being plugged into that world has advantages.. Positional awareness is a huge leap forward with VR. However at what cost.. I found it extremely hard to see incoming hostiles. in vr but in 2D (as you call it) on my 4K 32 inch Display. I have no issues.. and that's even taking the fact that 4K is not as good as 1080p for spotting distant Hostiles. However I hear your point about having both if was just a case of money (that's not a problem) I would have both .. But I voting with my pocket and feed back to developers on every product that I have tried.. and so far nothing and I say nothing is at the point that I'm willing to lay $1000 or even $4000au on... As I live here in backwards Australia I have to wait for the VR units to get to retail to get my hands on them.. I'm lucky that I have a friend that in the industry here and I can have play with the units as become available. I give them 3 years at least.. before the VR units are actually in the game.. but that will also depend on the hardware to support said VR units.. I would like to see independent, standalone images processing dedicated to the VR headset however that would involve bulky boxes and cables etc. and more than likely a bulky headset.. This would not be an option.. perhaps one day we will all be able to enjoy the realism we are hungry for... Bring it on ..... I"m waiting!!!! Targs, GTX 1080ti, Asus Hero XI, Intel 9900KF @4.2MHz, 32g DDR4@3200Mhz, 4x 1Tb SSD 1x 400g m.2mvme(boot), 28" Samsung 4k, Saitek X-56 Throttle/Warthog Stick and Saitek Pro Flight Pedals. Moduls All of the NATO jets, and all the choppers.. DEDi MP [62AW] The Blackbirds Brisbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goblin Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) But I voting with my pocket The thing is... If you’re voting with your pocket, by not buying into VR because it’s not as good as you hope it will be in 2-3 years, is a double edged sword... If nobody bought a VR headset, beacause they will get better in a few years, there would be no VR market... Imagine if everybody didn’t buy CGA, VGA or XGA monitors because they weren’t 4K... Where would we be today..? VR is still a startup. In a few years we will have VR headsets that will be superior to what we have today. You can thank all of us who invested in early VR then... Edited June 2, 2019 by Goblin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dburne Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 The thing is... If you’re voting with your pocket, by not buying into VR because it’s not as good as you hope it will be in 2-3 years, is a double edged sword... If nobody bought a VR headset, beacause they will get better in a few years, there would be no VR market... Imagine if everybody didn’t buy CGA, VGA or XGA monitors because they weren’t 4K... Where would we be today..? VR is still a startup. In a few years things we will have VR headsets that will be superior to what we have today. You can thank all of us who invested in early VR then... :thumbup: Kind of chicken or egg thing. Don B EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_sukebe Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 OP, you’re clearly entitled to your opinion, but your title suggests you consider VR unsuitable for all. I’ve flown exclusively in VR for 3 years now, and wouldn’t dream of going back to a monitor. System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse. Server: i5 2500@3.9Ghz, 1080, 24GB DDR3, SSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panthera_Tigris Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 you may wonder why I have this opinion! I am pretty sure no one really cares. You are fully entitled to your opinion. Not everyone has to like everything. I mean I can go into a forum about guitars and say, I don't like guitars and explain why. But that would a pretty useless thing to do. Why even bother? I can just.. you know... not play the guitar and that's that. I don'd feel the compulsive need to tell guitarists why I don't like it! New VR Simpit: Intel 10700K, MSI Seahawk X 1080Ti (waiting for 3080Ti or 3090), 32 GB 3600MHz RAM, HP Reverb, TM Warthog Old VR Simpit: Intel 4790K, Asus Matrix 780Ti, 16GB RAM, HTC Vive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mule Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 OP, you’re clearly entitled to your opinion, but your title suggests you consider VR unsuitable for all. I’ve flown exclusively in VR for 3 years now, and wouldn’t dream of going back to a monitor. Same here. Fighter Pilot Podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglecash867 Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 I recently got a 49" 4K TV that I hooked up to my gaming rig, and I honestly can't say that I see what the hype is all about. I mean, don't get me wrong, since its a QLED display, the color reproduction and clarity are out of this world, but it still doesn't do anything for me. I flew a mission in VR with most of my settings at low or medium (except for PD, which I have set at 2.0) to keep the performance up and made a track file. Then I disconnected the HMD, cranked all of the graphics settings up to their highest levels, and played back the track. Again, beautiful picture, but I found that I didn't really spend much time staring at the shadows moving around the cockpit and didn't spend much time staring at the water. I wasn't sure I could really spot ground targets any better than in VR, because I already had my sensors pointed at the target area to make positive IDs and prioritize targets. On the flight back to base, I made it a point to look around, down into the forest, and I had the feeling of actually looking at points on the ground between individual trees. At that same point in the track on the 4K pancake, I felt like I was looking at a picture of a point on the ground between trees. It was pretty much the same feeling I get after spending a couple of days above timberline, taking pictures of the breathtaking views of mountain peaks all around me, only to look at the pictures I took and feeling immense disappointment in how even one of the best digital cameras just can't do it justice on a flat screen with no sense of scale. I went VR 3 years ago with the Rift CV1, and I haven't flown on the pancake since. I don't fly competitively, so I don't need to be the first guy to shoot at a dot on the ground that I can differentiate from other ground objects at unrealiztic distances. I have the HP Reverb pro coming on June 26th, so things are going to get even better. My opinion is that VR is doing what it was meant to do, which is to give me the experience of actually flying a plane in combat. Its about to get almost twice as good with the Reverb, and the money I'm spending on that is going to end up being about $50.00 less than what I spent on my CV1 3 years ago. Technology doesn't advance and become lower-cost if people wait for everybody but themselves to fund its further development. OK. Well, I'm off to the comments sections on YouTube to find music videos I don't like and tell everybody why I don't like them. Nah. Just kidding. Doing that kind of thing just doesn't seem to be very productive. :music_whistling: EVGA Z690 Classified, Intel i9 12900KS Alder Lake processor, MSI MAG Core Liquid 360R V2 AIO Liquid CPU Cooler, G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series 64GB DDR5 6400 memory, EVGA RTX3090 FTW3 Ultra 24GB video card, Samsung 980PRO 1TB M2.2280 SSD for Windows 10 64-bit OS, Samsung 980PRO 2TB M2.2280 SSD for program files, LG WH14NS40 Blu-Ray burner. HOTAS Warthog, Saitek Pedals, HP Reverb G2. Partridge and pear tree pending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dburne Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Probably would have been better described if the OP put " for me" at the end of his topic title. VR is very subjective to the individual and their tastes using it. Don B EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flameoutme Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) My Opinion .... I hope they release a suitable VR unit soon.. I was VR but was not that impressed, so I have gone back to my 4k screen and track ir.. I Think I'll waiting another 2 years before it gets to where I'll jump back in.. I hope you will reconsider with the Rift S. I am new to VR 'tho not new to simming. It took me some fiddling with settings but I finally got it where I can id the planes within a reasonable distance (no labels, which kill immersion) , and I can read the gauges of text. I want to make sure this point is driven home - settings make all the difference - too much smoothing and it isn't good for readability. To little and it's not good for immersion. For me, I found the middle ground after reading features from the dcs manual and experimenting a lot. Also the power of one's PC is important for clarity - setting the pixel density in DCS settings made a difference in clarity especially of text. One needs PC horsepower for that. As for glasses and VR the best thing I did was order prescription lenses for my Oculus Go, which as luck would have it fit exactly well in my Rift S. This is a triple home winner. So much more comfortable, and seems clearer even more so, and I can't measure FOV but it "feels" wider. They cost about $90. Well worth it. So I would say Targanon that I too am looking for the day of true 4K VR, but having just gotten on the train - I think we are past novelty and gimmick and into serious flight sim enjoyment. It's not a cheap hobby - I built my state-of-the-art I-9700 new pc for $1000, plus 1080 graphics card, and just plopped $400 for the rift. I also have a high end monitor (another tip, run that at a lower res so your graphics card doesn't have to power both pc high res and VR high res) Without going into details of my life I was all set to go big time in cockpit, gauges, seats and switches and now the Rift S in one sweep made all that obsolete before I ever invested in it, at least for me. Best, Flameoutme Edited June 2, 2019 by flameoutme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunterbunt Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 What about HP reverb? My Rig: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X | 64GB DDR4-3200 Ram | NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti | Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog | MFG Crosswind rudder pedals | HP Reverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppy Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 The thing is... If you’re voting with your pocket, by not buying into VR because it’s not as good as you hope it will be in 2-3 years, is a double edged sword... If nobody bought a VR headset, beacause they will get better in a few years, there would be no VR market... Imagine if everybody didn’t buy CGA, VGA or XGA monitors because they weren’t 4K... Where would we be today..? VR is still a startup. In a few years we will have VR headsets that will be superior to what we have today. You can thank all of us who invested in early VR then... Except the VR technology is not exploding like high res monitors, etc. Most the the new VR tech is made for people who want to do fun little cellphone games, Google earth and silly little gimmick things, sadly. The major investment area is not hard core gaming/simulation - it's the fun little apps you can do at home with a wireless headset. There isn't enough money in the highend/simulation arena for these manufacturers/software designers. I assume the reason for this is that the PC tech to power high res units/processing is not there yet. Or a better way to code/optimize. VR is fun, but gamers care about eye candy. It's hard to sell them on something that doesnt look good. By good, i mean clarity, jagged edges, etc. My Simpit Progress and Update Learn how to build a SimPit like mine: Follow my Blog here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goblin Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Except the VR technology is not exploding like high res monitors, Exploding..? Do you realize how long it took the technology to go from CGA to 4K? Hardly an explosion. Take a look at the VR development the last few years, since the Oculus DK1 until today. None of that happened? Still, my point being that if everybody tried and returned their VR headsets, the VR development would stop. Plain and simple. It’s everybodys personal decision if they want to buy a VR headset or not. Just don’t for a minute think that you are promoting the development of better VR tech. if you’re not contributing... VR technology is evolving. No thanks to those of you who ”vote with your wallet” and staying out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gman109 Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 The OP isn't the authority on 4k gaming either, not with that monitor IMO. I've had several 4k gaming monitors, and the only ones that really do gaming justice right now are the 144hz Pred x27 or the Asus PG27UQs. I've had the Vive, Vive Pro, Odyssey, Odyssey+, and Rift S now. You get something different out of VR, although I do agree that the visuals aren't nearly what you get with a good 1440p or 4k GAMING monitor. If I was playing competitive PvP online, I might prefer an lcd over VR due to the spotting range capability as well as the trackIR advantage so far as being able to rapidly and easily look around behind your aircraft. Single player, I might prefer the immersion that VR gives me. It's very subjective IMO. Systems Virpil T50x2,T50CM2x2,Warbrd x2, VFX/Delta/CM2/Alpha/Tm Hornet sticks, VKB GF3, Tm Warthog(many), Modded Cougar, VKB Pedals/MFG Pedals/Slaw Viper RX+109Cam Pedals/Virpil T50+T50CM Throttle/CH Fightersticks/CH Throttles/CH peds, Index x1, Reverb x1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svsmokey Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Personal preferences all , but I cannot help but feel that the pancake guys are missing out...Even with my less-than-optimum system , i haven't flown a monitor since getting my Rift , and I fly every day . And the future is nigh , with the new headsets and DCS VR optimisation . I am very excited to think of where I will personally be in the next 3-8 months with headset and pc upgrades :) I do envy the simpit guys though . A simpit with VR and a good hand-tracking solution would be the ultimate experience IMO . 9700k @ stock , Aorus Pro Z390 wifi , 32gb 3200 mhz CL16 , 1tb EVO 970 , MSI RX 6800XT Gaming X TRIO , Seasonic Prime 850w Gold , Coolermaster H500m , Noctua NH-D15S , CH Pro throttle and T50CM2/WarBrD base on Foxxmounts , CH pedals , Reverb G2v2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mule Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 but I cannot help but feel that the pancake guys are missing out.... That made me spit my coffee..........:lol: Fighter Pilot Podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dburne Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Yeah not only have not flown in a monitor since Jan 2017 when I got my rift, I have not done any other gaming since on the monitor either. VR spoiled me and I can't go back to monitor for gaming. While flight sims will always be my first love and what gets the majority of my gaming time, I do so enjoy many Oculus Touch supported games. Don B EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglecash867 Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) Exploding..? Do you realize how long it took the technology to go from CGA to 4K? Hardly an explosion. Heh. Its a new kind of explosive. One that takes almost 30 years to detonate. :D Look at 4K media. It was a really big thing for a year or two, and then kinda fizzled because there wasn't much discernible benefit to it. 3D TVs and media were really popular for a short time too, but I think it was a lack of presence and sense of scale that killed that. I think that could make a comeback though when more people get into VR. I've been using my Rift CV1 for 3D movies, and that makes going back to pancake movies really difficult. There's just no substitute for that feeling of completely leaving the real world behind for a little while, in my opinion. Edited June 2, 2019 by eaglecash867 EVGA Z690 Classified, Intel i9 12900KS Alder Lake processor, MSI MAG Core Liquid 360R V2 AIO Liquid CPU Cooler, G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series 64GB DDR5 6400 memory, EVGA RTX3090 FTW3 Ultra 24GB video card, Samsung 980PRO 1TB M2.2280 SSD for Windows 10 64-bit OS, Samsung 980PRO 2TB M2.2280 SSD for program files, LG WH14NS40 Blu-Ray burner. HOTAS Warthog, Saitek Pedals, HP Reverb G2. Partridge and pear tree pending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmacky Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 My Opinion .... I hope they release a suitable VR unit soon.. I was VR but was not that impressed, so I have gone back to my 4k screen and track ir.. I Think I'll waiting another 2 years before it gets to where I'll jump back in.. you may wonder why I have this opinion! Let me explain a little I have had 4K large screen I was able to get one. I have a very fast PC I spent big when the RIFT CV1 was released and got the best components at that time.. so yes my PC was awesome still is for its age 2080ti is not enough of an upgrade to bother.. The CV1 was awesome but I longed for the clear hi detailed Display.. I had with my 4K screen. I also wear glasses and found it most uncomfortable while using the rift.. SO in the pursuit of comfort I started playing on the 4k flat screen again more and more.. till one day I ws like could not be bothered with the VR at all I know I"ll go back but I'm not spending more money on second gen hopes of something that just isn't yet!! Oh! yeah this is just my opinion and has nothing to do with yours .. YES I loved the immersion.. I loved the feeling of being there..I love where it is going... I'm just waiting till it gets a few more stops down the line.. IMO -- You are wrong! And have picked a poor time to abandon VR. You should have skipped the Rift and joined in now! I agree that better rez is paramount. The resolution of the original rift just kills me. It ruins the experience so much that I quit using it a year ago. What it did do is demonstrate that VR will be the only preferred display for simulations, and monitors were soon to be worthless for this purpose. I feel that that time could be now, and this would be the worst possible time to invest in a expensive monitor. We will soon know, but I feel that a top I-9 / 2080 TI rig and a HP Reverb. will be the setup, that finally allow you to give away your obsolete monitors. Several reviews indicate that this 2K view is just a stone throw from a monitor view. That's the "close enough" that people have been waiting for. As said - I'd rather be in an aircraft, and flying it, then looking at pictures on a screen. No mater how nice they look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thick8 Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 I get it. I tried both the CV1 and Vive. Passed on both of them and I’ve been following VR for almost 20 years. Just hoping for something worth owning. I per-ordered the original Odyssey. I even boxed it back up 3 times to send it back. But some tinkering and sitting “in” the cockpit of an A-10c won out. Now with the O+ it’s even better. I rarely even turn on the 4K TV that I use as a monitor and that’s just mainly for OS stuff. I hope that the tech soon reaches the level of fidelity you require so you can get back “in” a cockpit. I know I just wouldn’t fly anymore on a flat screen. Asus ROG C6H | AMD Ryzen 3600 @ 4.2Ghz | Gigabyte Aorus Waterforce WB 1080ti | 32Gb Crucial DDR4/3600 | 2Tb Intel NVMe drive | Samsung Odyssey+ VR | Thrustmaster Warthog | Saitek pedals | Custom geothermal cooling loop with a homemade 40' copper heat exchanger 35' in the ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppy Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Exploding..? Do you realize how long it took the technology to go from CGA to 4K? Hardly an explosion. Take a look at the VR development the last few years, since the Oculus DK1 until today. None of that happened? Still, my point being that if everybody tried and returned their VR headsets, the VR development would stop. Plain and simple. It’s everybodys personal decision if they want to buy a VR headset or not. Just don’t for a minute think that you are promoting the development of better VR tech. if you’re not contributing... VR technology is evolving. No thanks to those of you who ”vote with your wallet” and staying out of it. maybe in 30 years then. My Simpit Progress and Update Learn how to build a SimPit like mine: Follow my Blog here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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