Kiowas over Kandahar

[Fri13]

 

Sorry if already someone posted, but interesting takes off the flight...

[ngreenaway]

yea, i posted this elsewhere, its a good one

[TOViper]

Sorry if already someone posted, but interesting takes off the flight...

 

 

The scene at 1:37 reminds me to the valley at grid BR57 east of KHOERDE in Persian gulf map ... nice one!

[BlacleyCole]

Looks like the dash top is a catch all

[Paladin1cd]

Cole I was thinking the same thing.... m4s just tossed up there it appears?

[QuiGon]

Cole I was thinking the same thing.... m4s just tossed up there it appears?

Pretty much. Kiowa crews made quite frequent use of them during flight. ;)

[S. Low]

According to polychop they think the m4s were rarely used and that's why poly didnt model shooting them. I'm skeptical. Either way I want to shoot m4 out of my cockpit though

[Coota0]

Cole I was thinking the same thing.... m4s just tossed up there it appears?

 

There are to clips for each rifle on the dash. They lock the rifles into place and keep them from sliding around, but it only takes a moment to get the rifles of the dash.

[Jester986]

They were used pretty frequently, but its really impractical for DCS

Think about it. How hard is it to spot infantry units from the huey? Hiw are you going to get an ai pilot to maneuver you into a firing position on your target? How are you going to hit said target with 30 rounds in a rifle? I don't see it as enough value to the module to justify adding it. You'd try it a few times realize it sucks and go back to the 50 cal.

[QuiGon]

According to polychop they think the m4s were rarely used and that's why poly didnt model shooting them. I'm skeptical. Either way I want to shoot m4 out of my cockpit though

Well, it's debatable how "frequently" or "rarely" are definded, but Kiowa crews definitely trained to employing their M4s in-flight and did so numerous times in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

I can recommend this book for a first hand account on this technique (and the Kiowa in general): https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Close-Helicopter-Afghanistan-Biographies/dp/1410494012 ;)

Edited January 22, 2020 by QuiGon

[borchi_2b]

@Quigon,

 

the M4 was trained and used in the combat areas because the ROE demanded most of the times the least lethal force to be used. A 50 cal or rocketpod is defenately more lethal then a M4. Still undiscussable, the m4 was ment for personal protection in case of a downed aircraft.

[QuiGon]

@Quigon,

 

the M4 was trained and used in the combat areas because the ROE demanded most of the times the least lethal force to be used. A 50 cal or rocketpod is defenately more lethal then a M4. Still undiscussable, the m4 was ment for personal protection in case of a downed aircraft.

True, but additionally to situations with restriced ROEs the M4 was sometimes also used in situations where the forward fireing 50 cals or rockets couldn't provide the flexibilty needed to deal with the situation.

[borchi_2b]

Interesting information. I have not heard of a single incident yet in the OH58d Kiowa Warrior community, where the flight of 2 Kiowas could not employ 50cal or heavier ordance. I actually heard of stories where wodden doors were literally kicked in with a 50cal from less then 100 yards. So, as far I see it, there was never an issue with the weapons employment, and if there needed they did fly a turn around and hammered the target then or nb 2 came in and rained hell on the "bad" guys.

Would be interesting to know of that incident you describe., maybe one of the guys has heard about stuff like that. will see

[borchi_2b]

Basically, the guys in the community always said, it was ok to fire with the m4, but if we could not use the 50, we would have not been able to use anything.

[GriffonBR]

Those black dots in the glass of the Kiowa is just dirt or it's some "work arround" to have some kind of "gunsight" for aim the guns and rockets? I always wonder how the Kiowa pilots aim their guns in combat.

[Ramsay]

Those black dots in the glass of the Kiowa is just dirt or it's some "work arround" to have some kind of "gunsight" for aim the guns and rockets?

 

The black dots are made with grease pencil and are Aerial Ballistic Reference Marks (ABRM) i.e. a quick gun burst to see where the rounds fall, before adjusting accordingly.

 

The aircrew training manual says to draw a cross "+" on the glass, as seen in Polychop's OH-58D and in some other videos but in the "Kiowas over Kandahar" video, the pilots used black dots.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Ramsay

[QuiGon]

Interesting information. I have not heard of a single incident yet in the OH58d Kiowa Warrior community, where the flight of 2 Kiowas could not employ 50cal or heavier ordance. I actually heard of stories where wodden doors were literally kicked in with a 50cal from less then 100 yards. So, as far I see it, there was never an issue with the weapons employment, and if there needed they did fly a turn around and hammered the target then or nb 2 came in and rained hell on the "bad" guys.

Would be interesting to know of that incident you describe., maybe one of the guys has heard about stuff like that. will see

Well, I guess in the end it does indeed come down to the ROEs in most cases. Originally I was thinking about operations in confined spaces, like Iraqi cities where Kiowas had to fire on targets in narrow streets where the M4 offers more flexibility in terms of pointing the weapon at the target between buildings, but ultimately that's probably because the ROEs might restrict unnecessary dammage to civilian property.

 

And then there are situations like

, where it starts with warning shots, but then evolves to deadly force, but instead to then using the mounted weapons exclusively the crew went ahead and used the mounted weapons and the M4 in parallel.

[Stratos]

I hope they add the M4 hability, If it was is in the real chopper, it MUST be in DCS.

[cordite]

It is in DCS, on the dash. Even if they did make it usable, it would probably be like a fixed mount gun.

[Stratos]

It is in DCS, on the dash. Even if they did make it usable, it would probably be like a fixed mount gun.

 

As in the Huey gunner? Enough for me, specially If we can (apart from shooting the M4 ourselves) to order the copilot to engage troops on the ground as in the Uh-1.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Stratos

[DUSTY]

Honestly couldn't care less about a functioning M4. I want the OH-58 to fly it, not to shoot a carbine out the window while an AI pilot flies for me.

[Stratos]

And I prefer to have mre options and more realistim.

[Barrett_g]

Apologies for the bump, as this thread’s a couple months old.... but I REALLY want a Bagram/Kandahar/surrounding area map!

[CAmastersgt]

Interesting information. I have not heard of a single incident yet in the OH58d Kiowa Warrior community, where the flight of 2 Kiowas could not employ 50cal or heavier ordance. I actually heard of stories where wodden doors were literally kicked in with a 50cal from less then 100 yards. So, as far I see it, there was never an issue with the weapons employment, and if there needed they did fly a turn around and hammered the target then or nb 2 came in and rained hell on the "bad" guys.

Would be interesting to know of that incident you describe., maybe one of the guys has heard about stuff like that. will see

 

I concur. When I was fired at, they would be lucky if they only got rifle fire in return. Most of the time it was GAME ON!!!

[borchi_2b]

I concur. When I was fired at, they would be lucky if they only got rifle fire in return. Most of the time it was GAME ON!!!

 

This is what I ment by my statement.

People forget about what is happening in RL and in terms of ROEs and what is possible in game.

 

Given fact is, which every Kiowa Warrior pilot will concur to is, that the M4 was ment for personal protection, not for direct combat actions from the helicopter.

 

I sometimes scratch my head why people think such a M4 would be in any way accurate when you fire it out of the door in a move sideways. I have fired multiple rifle rounds in my life and I know that there is so far not a single game that is relaistic in terms of the aim, recoil control, reaim and so on. Everybody who has fired rifles in his life will oknow, that a shot from a moving, rocking vehicle like a helicopter is basically, in first place a waste of ammunition, when you have way more accurate weapons you can use.