Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?

[bell_rj]

Over many years I have been generally very supportive of ED, their development partners, and understand that flight sim development is a complex and difficult endeavour.

 

As a Harrier owner who has enjoyed flying the module, I am VERY disappointed with this development and ED's current position on this which I find totally unacceptable.

 

It is obvious to me why the status change was done with no fanfare - because it is obvious to Razbam and ED that the response seen from the community was totally predictable - and entirely reasonable. The optics of making this change in such a way are not good.

 

It's a real shame because I'd earmarked the Falklands Map as an instant buy when it becomes available. I'm having to re-consider that. My trust in Razbam and ED has taken a major knock today.

[Zaneboy]

A "shit storm in a glass of water"... I paid money for this module mind you, I and many others would like at least some official CLARIFICATION about the situation. If they're able to answer questions in their discord, they can do a public announcement as well. Of course hiding in an enclosed environment (read discord) and let BIGNEWY handle the PR damage control is much easier than doing some effort themselves.

 

RB if you're actually reading this (I hope you guys do), please handle this correctly by informing your customers and make a public statement about your reasoning and intentions regarding this not-so-small change. Show you value your customers above monetary gains.

[Sajarov]

The Discord statement is unbelievable.

So unprofessional.

 

They must come here, to Eagle Dynamics Official forum to deal with their customers and not to hide in Discord.

 

Come on Ronald. Explain yourself.

 

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[viper2097]

Here are some responses from the devs over on discord:

 

 

 

Wow, this is emberassing.

And unbelievable rude.

Honestly, I don't know what to say anymore.

I just want my money back.

[Fri13]

So they simply went to sweep a lot of problems under "it is a military secret" rug....

[cuervo111]

I'm not usually one to join in this kind of discussion, but this is indeed embarrassing.

[Harlikwin]

So they simply went to sweep a lot of problems under "it is a military secret" rug....

 

Yeah, the whole "its sekrit" thing is pretty tiresome, especially for something like DMT sidewinder slave. Its a well known system, and ED has the TGP equivalent of it already implemented in various TGP's. Other stuff, like realistic ARBS management, I'm not gonna give them a pass on either. The FLIR hotspot thing, at least they mentioned why they can't currently do it and will wait for the new FLIR model to do, fine.

 

But really the entire swamp of bugs in the module is pretty lame overall and the rate of fixing those is slow.

[Snappy]

Considering that ED gets a share of the sales and generally seldom misses any opportunity to tout the high realism of their Sim and the modules, I‘m disappointed.

Primarily with Razbam for the abysmal communication and interaction with their customers here, for a long time(long before Decoy left) and secondarily with ED for failing get Razbam to meet a certain minimum standard, both in regards to product as well as communication.

 

I hope at least the latter changes and that Razbam gets a stern talking to from ED..

 

Regards,

 

Snappy

[some1]

is there anyone else who still has not realised that out of ea does not mean bug free?:yawn:

 

Is that a bug?

 

[amalahama]

Is it a way we can report them to any consumers protection organisation in any country? This clearly is a case of fraud

[Sideburns]

Is that a bug?

 

 

Baltic Dragon was on the Razbam Discord and apologised as he has been asked to finish this and the detailed manual but has been delayed by Covid19. Not ideal but also seems like a genuine reason. Still, whoever calls it feature complete is wrong.

[SGT Coyle]

Out of early access does not mean no bugs, just so we are clear on that.

 

thanks

 

Considering that ED gets a share of the sales and generally seldom misses any opportunity to tout the high realism of their Sim and the modules, I‘m disappointed.

Primarily with Razbam for the abysmal communication and interaction with their customers here, for a long time(long before Decoy left) and secondarily with ED for failing get Razbam to meet a certain minimum standard, both in regards to product as well as communication.

 

I hope at least the latter changes and that Razbam gets a stern talking to from ED..

 

Regards,

 

Snappy

Well said

[falcon_120]

I am lightly dissapointed by some of the Harrier exisiting bugs. On the other hand I can say it is in a state that allows fun in many missions, specially in MP where i mostly play in.

 

Regarding the out of EA, I agree that a bare minimum like a finished manual should be there. I do hope that the product sustainment state is as good in the harrier as it is in the mirage 2000. Lets not forget the whole picture and get things out of proportion. I will give them the benefit of the doubt for one more year, but indeed I will think twice before going into the F15E depending how things evolve.

[NineLine]

Is it a way we can report them to any consumers protection organisation in any country? This clearly is a case of fraud

 

While I understand your frustration, I will ask you to calm a little bit, me and BIGNEWY are trying to get a feel of where we are at on everything, and working with RAZBAM to improve communications and get concerns addressed.

 

The module is considered feature complete and into a sustainment phase by RAZBAM, we are looking at users concerns and trying to communicate this back to their team. Give us some time to work on this, please.

Edited September 8, 2020 by BIGNEWY

[Fri13]

While I understand your frustration, I will ask you to calm a little bit, me and BIGNEWY are trying to get a feel of where we are at on everything, and working with RAZBAM to improve communications and get concerns addressed.

 

The module is considered feature complete and into a sustainment phase by RAZBAM, we are looking at users concerns and trying to communicate this back to their team. Give us some time to work on this, please.

 

Well said. IMHO this thread could be closed with further notice u til you get things in understanding, and then open it again with information...

[Shrike88]

Well said. IMHO this thread could be closed with further notice u til you get things in understanding, and then open it again with information...

 

By doing so you only continue status quo and silence and concerned thought and questions about the topic. The worse outcome for any objective forum

[BIGNEWY]

Well said. IMHO this thread could be closed with further notice u til you get things in understanding, and then open it again with information...

 

By doing so you only continue status quo and silence and concerned thought and questions about the topic. The worse outcome for any objective forum

 

while the discussion is within the rules it will remain open, it needs to be discussed.

 

But please remember the rules when posting.

 

We are talking with RAZBAM so please be patient.

 

thank you

[some1]

Baltic Dragon was on the Razbam Discord and apologised as he has been asked to finish this and the detailed manual but has been delayed by Covid19. Not ideal but also seems like a genuine reason. Still, whoever calls it feature complete is wrong.

 

I fell sorry for Baltic Dragon as his works are always exceptional and now he is also dragged into this affair.

 

But that's the point. Why call something complete, when it clearly is not. The manual is just one among many things that need attention.

[NineLine]

I fell sorry for Baltic Dragon as his works are always exceptional and now he is also dragged into this affair.

 

But that's the point. Why call something complete, when it clearly is not. The manual is just one among many things that need attention.

 

It was a miss-communication it seems, and I am talking to both Ron and BD about it. Its something that BD couldn't work on at home, so it will be done. You will find no bigger fan of manuals than me, and the pages listed above are far from complete, but as I said, it does seem to be a missed item, and it will be addressed as fast as humanly possible.

 

I think it's great that BD is doing it, I can only imagine the quality will be top-notch.

[Terrorban]

I honestly didn't expect anything more from RAZBAM.

 

I am more concerned with what ED considers OK to be out of EA. This is good. I will not be so blindly tossing my money their way anymore since EA or Released product does not have any difinitive meaning in DCS.

 

With this new strategy, so many modules can now be pulled out of early access as long as the skeleton of the feature is impletmented to tick the store page checklist.

[Fisu_MAD]

Really embarrassing that a product is sold with bugs. We will see when the following buyers come and see that, for example, they cannot make the TDC work (with axis hardware) as they work in the rest of the modules.

The NSEQ moving all the waypoints when you change the enlarged view on the map, or the lighting at night of the taxi lights, which is not seen at 2 meters, ... to put 3 examples of the 200-odd lines collected in the community bug collection.

Not a surprise, no communication, no decent update from a long time ago, forum abandoned for months ...

This when they are going to fix it? 3 years?? this is indecent. Unfortunately the quality has been lowered so much and accepted by ED.

[Hawkeye_UK]

It's an utter farce.

 

They are often on their discord. A logical conclusion given the facts would be that they use that because they can control all content and user access. However as soon as you raise an issue they have no interest in resolving you get deleted from the group. First off i'm not aware of any age restrictions for their discord group and many of ED's customers are minor's so swearing is utterly uncalled for, this is not professional not that they should need reminding.

 

I hope this post does not get deleted given other recent ones have.

 

Thankfully its now got to stage, where they cannot pull the wool over ED's eyes anymore by hiding, marking as resolved and deleting threads. Having a bug tracker on their site that mirrors no resemblance to the actual module. I actually think that once ED complete an internal investigation and review the module it will return back to EA.

 

First, we need to get to a position that no matter how critical in nature a customer's feedback is, this should not be deleted. We have over the years fought for our freedom, some at the sharp end and other's reading this will still be keeping us safe. To silence free speech or oppress opinions is not healthy, history is proof of that and thus we cannot tolerate any attempt to silence an opinion no matter in what form of life it happens, even if its something we don't personally agree with, we have to respect that person's right to express themselves with tolerance and respect. Any attempt to silence genuine issues is insulting to sacrifices made and unless the post itself is prejudice against a direct person which would cause insult aka racism, sexist, supporting terrorism,bullying etc, or totally disregards the forums rules they should be engaged not dismissed.

 

Genuinely highlighting an issue is surely what the Open Beta process is all about and should be welcomed. Dev's that cannot handle criticism of a product when it is based on trying to improve it need to look inwards and reflect, it is not a personnel attack on them but born out of wanting the product to be right. It is not just them that are passionate. I often see comment's to other users that have raised genuine issues being dismissed with EA is not for them, 80% of the time i agree its not for them but with the Harrier i actually think if constructive feedback can't be given, is censored and/or that feedback is totally ignored then EA is not for Razbam. It is that simple.

 

The harrier situation is a concern. Superficially the module flies, but that's where it ends. It is not feature complete, especially for what is sold as a level d simulation by any measure. It is not even complete on the list that it is sold by let alone the total disregard to how the systems work IRL, its MFD pages etc (would take pages on here but happy to spec out if the desire is there). It is clear that as the year has gone on resentment in the serious harrier players has grown, caused by a lack of forward progress on features with equally a total disregard to the official forum's and people raising issues there only to be frankly ignored. Whilst all the while we are showcased new screenshots of F15, Mig23, Lighting even by various other channels. Serious issues preventing the correct operation of the Harrier are still present, some from day 1 of release. If you have Natop's knowledge of the jet then the flaws just become even more apparent, but even for the casual player there are problems with such basic things as vital keybinds not working or present. I have said before Razbam have a very talented group of artists but lack code resource base.

 

To move this module out of EA is a mistake. But what cannot be tolerated is Razbam's continued ignorance to the official ED forum's and their customers who have purchased expecting in good faith a company to engage with them. I believe in the EA process, i'm committed to supporting ED (over $1000 so far) and i'm very patient and pragmatic. However simple common courtesy to reply to an issue costs nothing. I could in fairness work my way down the Harrier forum list each issue and reply to each post within a day. They have had 3 years nearly, there is not a valid excuse to not acknowledge now, only an apology and admission they got things wrong. It has got to the state where quite frankly over the last 12 months players who have signed up to support the EA process in assisting are not getting that assistance back from Razbam, its a two way partnership and one side of that partnership is not working, and hasn't been for some time. It either arrogance or head in the sand, either way its not good and needs resolution.

 

Apart from the utter failure in consumer confidence in Razbam to move it away from EA its a mistake for them also. Inadvertently what they have done is actually the worst thing for them if they are struggling as they have no justification anymore of it being an Early Access module. Bugs will be expecting to be resolved, actual non EA customers not ignored, aka the less tolerant ones. They have just hugely increased the pressure on themselves without realising it and for this reason alone its another mistake to move the module away from EA, its just not ready, mark my words, resentment will grow. and this will become a bigger and bigger problem.

 

Some of us have over 1500 hours in the DCS harrier, some 2000+ hours i dare say some probably have more time than the dev's flying it themselves. These are not, with no disrespect to our younger audience 12 year old's on their first flight simulator (who equally deserve a better level of customer service nor sworn at). The point is alot of us have 30 + years of experience , a lot of us fly IRL. I have seen some people state well the CM has left, however this is something that has only occurred in the last 2 1/2 weeks. I would invite you to look at the amount of issues/bugs raised and notice how many don't even get acknowledgement over the last 12 months, this is what has caused the issue. That and Razbam's expression of preferring their Facebook as they can control the content. They engage on their own platforms just not so much with ED forums, which is the reverse of what it should be. Have you noticed that they even dismissed the community bug tracker stating they only work to the Razbam one, which what a surprise they control and contains a fraction of the real issues.

 

I would highlight that this is not directly ED's issue so let's not be critical of them yet, they need time to take on board our comments and work with Razbam to performance manage them into delivering and equally long term review the op's structure on third parties re business continuity / redundancy if key personnel leave etc. Yes the book stops with ED however we need to give them the opportunity to resolve and hopefully the Senior Management will at some point be briefed and get this on their own radar. Also i would like to highlight that this is not Bignewy's or Nineline's issue - they have worked really hard this last year to massively improve on the communication to the community and in that sense have a tough role, even keeping across the ED discord too at all times of day and night, i feel sorry for them that they are now having to pick up further work because Razbam are failing to deliver on their end of the deal.

 

One last point, is it right that third party developers have oversight and moderator rights of official ED forums, i would suggest not until trust is regained. It provides an opportunity for things to be deleted, moved to resolved when not. Only ED should have this level of access.

 

I'm confident that ED, now involved will come back with us with a clear roadmap on how we make progress together, hopefully providing an oversight on Razbam's customer service, which clearly needs an urgent and honest review along with their output.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Hawkeye_UK

[Hawkeye_UK]

PS as for Baltic Dragon, if it takes him another year it will be worth waiting for. Fantastic content, always. Simply put if its got his name on it i will buy it.

 

Let not deflect away on a red herring. Nothing to do with BD the current status of Razbam and the issues listed in my last post re module out of EA.

[stormrider]

It's an utter farce.

 

First, we need to get to a position that no matter how critical in nature a customer's feedback is, this should not be deleted. We have over the years fought for our freedom, some at the sharp end and other's reading this will still be keeping us safe. To silence free speech or oppress opinions is not healthy, history is proof of that and thus we cannot tolerate any attempt to silence an opinion no matter in what form of life it happens, even if its something we don't personally agree with, we have to respect that person's right to express themselves with tolerance and respect. Any attempt to silence genuine issues is insulting to sacrifices made and unless the post itself is prejudice against a direct person which would cause insult aka racism, sexist, supporting terrorism,bullying etc, or totally disregards the forums rules they should be engaged not dismissed.

 

Genuinely highlighting an issue is surely what the Open Beta process is all about and should be welcomed. Dev's that cannot handle criticism of a product when it is based on trying to improve it need to look inwards and reflect, it is not a personnel attack on them but born out of wanting the product to be right. It is not just them that are passionate. I often see comment's to other users that have raised genuine issues being dismissed with EA is not for them, 80% of the time i agree its not for them but with the Harrier i actually think if constructive feedback can't be given, is censored and/or that feedback is totally ignored then EA is not for Razbam. It is that simple.

 

 

Thank you.

[Fusedspine33]

They have delivered, and product sustainment will continue.

 

If you are not sure of the refund policy please read the EULA

 

Thanks

 

 

No they haven’t delivered and ED is expected to be a better gate keeper by ensuring higher standards are maintained.

 

 

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