reported Fw 190 D-9 Dora Engine Bug

[Ala13_ManOWar]

5 minutes ago, razo+r said:

 

Oil is not too hot, it's rather a tad cold. You can clearly see, it's not even within the normal operation markings of 110C - 130C (Max is 135C). For the beginning of his flight, the oil temp was on the lower end of operation temperature, then at around 120C well within limits.

 

Both cooling systems work normal within limits in his video.

Well, yes those are the limits, still 100º oil temp and the same in radiator water, even before taking off. I bet that was a hot day and/or he run the engine for a long time on the ground before taking off even if that alone shouldn't break the engine.

 

S!

7 minutes ago, Hobel said:

you can still look at the tracks there I have other values regarding the temp at startup.

and the temp are still fully in the limits?

in the manual is even a starting power of 3150-3300 and that you should only after a while down to 3000RPM I handle here even more gently if you go after it

Yeah, sorry the second vid wasn't working when I wrote, and now it is but low res and I can barely see the instruments.

 

S!

[Hobel]

2 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Well, yes those are the limits, still 100º oil temp and the same in radiator water, even before taking off. I bet that was a hot day and/or he run the engine for a long time on the ground before taking off even if that alone shouldn't break the engine.

this is exactly why there is also a start at cooler ol temp in the track files, the result is the same in the end, broken engine

 

 

yes i have run the engine for a long time
and once less long
and once very short

Everywhere the engine broke down

the trackfiles are all there

 

 

and here is a pure 2700RPM flight, but still.:

 

 

  

2 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Yeah, sorry the second vid wasn't working when I wrote, and now it is but low res and I can barely see the instruments.

 

the video is still being processed by YT it takes a while until it is there in full resolution

Edited July 31, 2021 by Hobel

[Ala13_ManOWar]

5 hours ago, Hobel said:

this is exactly why there is also a start at cooler ol temp in the track files, the result is the same in the end, broken engine

Ok, I can see now the processing video. Were you mounting a drop tank by any chance? If not, why do you use fuel pump for external tank? That fills with air the circuit and can lead to engine fuel starvation. Just wondering.

 

S!

[Hobel]

11 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Ok, I can see now the processing video. Were you mounting a drop tank by any chance? If not, why do you use fuel pump for external tank? That fills with air the circuit and can lead to engine fuel starvation. Just wondering.

 

S!

I have tested many such dige already some time ago without success therefore I have not shown it here yet.

you mean E85 right?

I did another test at 10°C outside temperature and E85 off.

here you go FW190D9 Engine die 10 temp pumps off.trk

8:10:50 Engine Die

[alt-92]

I may have to go through this book:

 

Going by memory here, but according to many bits posted so far of the research done by the writer, it's not implausible that this is actually how the engine behaves.  Some of the finds certainly had me scratching my head..

 

[Hobel]

So is it normal when the engine dies at 7000RPM although everything is in range, I start with different RPM and these are always in the frame and yet the engine dies every time.

the tracks and recordings are all from today.
here another 2700 RPM started on Caucasus

 

Caucasus 10 min die.trk 

 

 

D9 after 20min fast speed E die.trk

 

 

so is it still a mission problem or to which status does this problem belong and what does the team say about it?

Edited July 31, 2021 by Hobel

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

So is it normal when the engine dies at 7000RPM although everything is in range, I start with different RPM and these are always in the frame and yet the engine dies every time.

the tracks and recordings are all from today.
here another 2700 RPM started on Caucasus

 

Caucasus 10 min die.trk 770.85 kB · 0 downloads  

Awesome, this is the best track I have seen yet on the issue, and plays well in our Dev build, I will try and get the Team to take a look at it, thanks.

[Hobel]

thx

Yes, I did nothing else all day today but run a few scenarios, just what is different about the track, the others do not show anything different in the core?

[NineLine]

The longer ones can get lost in our dev build as its so far ahead of the release version, this one seems to play back exactly as you intended, and I see the failure nice and clear, not to mention its after 10 mins so nice and short and to the point.

[DetroiTechno]

 

20 hours ago, NineLine said:

You may not have read everything, we can not reproduce it consistently, and the times I did, it was older missions, and resaving the mission fixed it. With out tracks or detailed info on the fight where it happens, its nearly impossible to reproduce, so its hard to fix something you can not replicate. 

Track?

This has happened twice to me now on the Storm of War server. Flying at 2700  RPM carefully watching temps and the engine seizes for no reason.

 

Is this an "old" mission? If SOW is not an old mission then it does not only happen on old maps. Because it happens in SOW.

 

I can't logically fly the plane in SOW anymore if I run a chance of a bug randomly blowing up the engine. I can't logically fly the plane at all with a bug that blows up the engine.

 

For what it's worth... I work in tech. If 20 clients came to me with a product breaking bug with numerous examples of them clearly experiencing the issue... and I told them "I can't consistently reproduce the bug so we can't fix it"... they would have my head and never hire me again for that response to the problem.

Edited August 1, 2021 by DetroiTechno

[NineLine]

3 hours ago, DetroiTechno said:

 

 

 

For what it's worth... I work in tech. If 20 clients came to me with a product breaking bug with numerous examples of them clearly experiencing the issue... and I told them "I can't consistently reproduce the bug so we can't fix it"... they would have my head and never hire me again for that response to the problem.

 

Well thanks for the helpful info, I am sure DCS software is very similar to what you work on.

 

Seriously though, I have never given up on this bug, even after out testers determined that resaving the mission resolve what must be a similar or related issue.

 

I have never said we can't fix it, I said without reproducable  steps it makes diagnosis much harder or in this case near impossible. I have flown the Dora hours on end trying to reproduce, my last success being the one that was solved with a re-save. 

 

So here I am, still trying to collect quality debug tracks, which if you would read a few posts up I got a great one. I know it seems easy to fix, just tell the engine to not die right? Well DCS and what we model is a little more complex than that. 

 

It's super deflating to have the latest response be I or someone else should lose our job and never be hired again, but oh well. I will take what I have collected and see what the team says, as for this thread, if it's going to spin into a thinly veiled insult, I will just close and when we have info on this bug, I hope it will be found in a changelog sooner rather than later.

 

Please consider this issue reported, thanks for all the feedback.

[DetroiTechno]

There is currently a bug with the Fw 190 D9. The engine seizes randomly. It has happened to me numerous times in the Storm or War multiplayer server.

 

It sucks.

 

There is a thread documenting the problem here.

 

The bug has been reported and documented numerous times over 5 pages in this thread over 8 months from November 2020 to August 2021 today but the thread has been locked.

 

Just in case this bug isn't fixed quickly... I am creating this thread to see if there is anything we can do as users to mitigate the fact that the engine blows up randomly. Is there a workaround?

 

The plane has already very little usage in multiplayer and now a bug that randomly blows up the engine. We invest not only our money but our time into flying these planes. I welcome being randomly shot down after 30 minutes in a multiplayer server. But I cannot accept a bug that seizes the engine 30 minutes into a flight for no reason.

 

The last time I had this problem I was just about to dive on an unsuspecting P51 and the engine seized. I admit I rage quit... and then hunted in the forum for a reason and a solution.

 

I really want to fly the plane but I just can't logically fly it if there is a chance the engine will seize and end my playing time in the game; forcing me to restart or just quit. Do I fly the K4? Or do I risk a random game breaking bug that forces me to quit xx minutes into playing if I fly the Dora?

 

I'm hoping there is a way around this while we patiently wait for a fix.

 

For example: the engine seems to seize at 2700 RPM randomly. But other users say they have no seizing problems flying at military power. it seems counterintuitive but can we fly at 3000 RPM and avoid engine failure? I don't have the time or the patience to test this out myself. I keep blowing up the engine!!!

 

I hope this leads to a fruitful discussion and workarounds while we wait patiently for this bug to be fixed

 

[Hobel]

Tracks were sent in and I assume it was accepted as nineline says here

if you fly 3000RPM you can avoid the problem at the moment 

 

  

[DetroiTechno]

2 hours ago, Hobel said:

if you fly 3000RPM you can avoid the problem at the moment 

 

  

 

Nope, just blew up the engine at 3000 RPM after flying for about 30 minutes.

 

I watched the track again to verify I did not overheat the engine.

 

It just... dies... randomly.

 

So running at 3000 RPM is NOT a fix.

[Nirvi]

19 minutes ago, DetroiTechno said:

 

Nope, just blew up the engine at 3000 RPM after flying for about 30 minutes.

 

I watched the track again to verify I did not overheat the engine.

 

It just... dies... randomly.

 

So running at 3000 RPM is NOT a fix.

Could you please attach the track here? This would help a lot in reproducing the issue.

 

In July, I flew the Dora for around 15 hours in multiplayer, didn't have a single engine failure. I even tried to provoke the bug and flew around with 2400/2500/2600 RPM... no problems at all.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Nirvi

[Hobel]

38 minutes ago, DetroiTechno said:

So running at 3000 RPM is NOT a fix.

yes exactly now that you say it, I had the problem also already at 3000. rather it reduces the probability.

 that 2700 is already almost a guarantee

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Hobel

[Art-J]

Yup, 2700 seems to be a magic number. I don't fly Dora often, but flew it two days ago just to check this infamous bug. With 2700 got it on my first try, didn't even have to wait 20 minutes - about 13 was enough for "ignition timing error" it seems :D.

[rkk01]

Do the rad shutters make any difference???

 

(I may have been kidding myself that opening the rad was a fix)

[amazingme]

If you fly with full tank (MW-50 disabled) then land to refuel, the engine will surely seize soon after the take-off..

[DetroiTechno]

4 hours ago, amazingme said:

If you fly with full tank (MW-50 disabled) then land to refuel, the engine will surely seize soon after the take-off..

 

THIS!!!!

 

I changed the curve on my throttle so the afterburner notch is 3k RPM. I was so excited I thought I had found a fix!

 

I had a half tank of fuel because flying around at 3000 RPM is horrible for fuel economy... So I landed and refueled. A few minutes after takeoff the engine seized.

 

The track is 77mb so it's too big to share here.

 

I don't think MW-50 has anything to do with it. I always keep it on. You don't actually use it unless you go full throttle anyway. I don't see how the rad shutters would make a difference and they would just slow you down.

 

I'm not sure there is a fix at this point until our friends at ED get around to fixing the bug

 

What else can we do???

Edited August 6, 2021 by DetroiTechno

[Hobel]

Hopefully, the error has now been finally accepted.

The error can always be caused by the same procedure and enough evidence has been provided.

I hope for a fix in the next few weeks, but would also like to hear a reason why it might take longer and why.

If it is now dragging on for years again, I would like to hear a reason. 

[DetroiTechno]

Well, the original post documenting the bug was posted on the 5th of November 2020.

 

The post has been closed and considered reported.

 

That was 279 days ago today August 11th 2021.

[Hobel]

I want to think that there are still older reports about it

[Japo32]

Same problem

[DetroiTechno]

Today is the second update I've seen released and I have not seen any mention of this being fixed.

 

Does anyone know if this has been fixed in the latest beta update 2.7.6.12852 or was it fixed in another release?

 

I quit flying the plane

Edited September 18, 2021 by DetroiTechno