F/A18E/F Super Hornets block 1 and BLock 2 E/F ( lot 26)

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

20 hours ago, shaneduce said:

Did you not read my post? I all said as much they could take a guess and call it a day. They all ready guess at the jammer's in the airframes. Why not a jamming plane just turned to 11?

Jamming is also REALLY rudimentary. We'd need a lot more than what we have. Believe me, if it gave us a chance for an EA-6B? I'd be game. But, that hasn't been hinted at.

On 11/3/2022 at 7:50 PM, SilentSparrow said:

There's also the "You just never know" from NineLine. It could very well be a yes. This is more than a nothing burger. 

NineLine (no disrespect intended) is also an official rep from ED, as you are well aware. He's also not within the innermost circles and serves as community outreach of which he does a good job. But, 'you just never know' is little more than admitting that it isn't in the cards for the immediate or near future. It's more of an admission that the ED team is always looking for options and future ideas for products. With the Apache out and making very steady progress, it's probably time to consider another project for the long term. A Super Hornet might be in that consideration, but it'll be quite the distance out.

At this point, there's little to go on and "You just never know" is not much more than an official line that reiterates ED's willingness and capability to tackle popular aircraft. I wouldn't put much stock into it since, if I were to start a similar thread about adding the CF-100 Canuck that garnered a similar response, I would expect the same line of dialogue. 

[shaneduce]

48 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Jamming is also REALLY rudimentary. We'd need a lot more than what we have. Believe me, if it gave us a chance for an EA-6B? I'd be game. But, that hasn't been hinted at.

NineLine (no disrespect intended) is also an official rep from ED, as you are well aware. He's also not within the innermost circles and serves as community outreach of which he does a good job. But, 'you just never know' is little more than admitting that it isn't in the cards for the immediate or near future. It's more of an admission that the ED team is always looking for options and future ideas for products. With the Apache out and making very steady progress, it's probably time to consider another project for the long term. A Super Hornet might be in that consideration, but it'll be quite the distance out.

At this point, there's little to go on and "You just never know" is not much more than an official line that reiterates ED's willingness and capability to tackle popular aircraft. I wouldn't put much stock into it since, if I were to start a similar thread about adding the CF-100 Canuck that garnered a similar response, I would expect the same line of dialogue. 

With the F/A-18 E/F/G they all ready have a base airframe. I hope the bulk of the work would all ready be done. Just got to update the FM.

[draconus]

11 hours ago, shaneduce said:

With the F/A-18 E/F/G they all ready have a base airframe. I hope the bulk of the work would all ready be done. Just got to update the FM.

Faaar from it. That they share part of the name and a few instruments is definitely not bulk of the work.

[SilentSparrow]

11 hours ago, draconus said:

Faaar from it. That they share part of the name and a few instruments is definitely not bulk of the work.

They have a few new avionics, 2 new weapons pylons, and a new airframe (Plus new engines, but the flight model shouldn't change too much). The F/A-18E/F Lot 26, otherwise, is the same as the F/A-18C Lot 20.

[draconus]

8 hours ago, SilentSparrow said:

They have a few new avionics, 2 new weapons pylons, and a new airframe (Plus new engines, but the flight model shouldn't change too much). The F/A-18E/F Lot 26, otherwise, is the same as the F/A-18C Lot 20.

You don't understand. If it's a different airframe or engine it's a new FM, period. It's also new 3D model and new cockpit. Years of work, nothing close to a few changes. A new module.

[SilentSparrow]

Oh, come on. The T/W ratio is nearly the same; they're both Hornets, so there's no major change in the flight model. I know there's a new cockpit, and I neglected the 3d model of the cockpit, but it will still not take long to make the cockpit because it is just so similar to the Legacy Hornet's. Don't worry about the 3d model of the F/A-18E/F/G, CJS has that nailed down. This is a lot less than a year's work.

Edited November 8, 2022 by SilentSparrow

[Jackjack171]

12 minutes ago, SilentSparrow said:

Oh, come on. The T/W ratio is nearly the same; they're both Hornets, so there's no major change in the flight model. I know there's a new cockpit, and I neglected the 3d model of the cockpit, but it will still not take long to make the cockpit because it is just so similar to the Legacy Hornet's. Don't worry about the 3d model of the F/A-18E/F/G, CJS has that nailed down. This is a lot less than a year's work.

 

When the Super Hornet was introduced via VFA-122, I recall that pilots of Legacy Hornets had to requalify as the Navy considered it a new aircraft. There is a change in the Flight model and many systems despite what you just said bro.

[SilentSparrow]

I never said there was no change in the flight model, I said there was no major change in the flight model. If the Lot 20 is a dominant one circle fighter but not a good 2 circle one, it's not like that will change for the Super Hornet. I also never said it was the same as the Legacy Hornet's, I just said that it is so similar. A person who can cold start a Legacy can cold start a Super. They can still dogfight. They can still BVR fight. They can do pretty much everything that they could do in the Legacy Hornet.

[draconus]

10 hours ago, SilentSparrow said:

I never said there was no change in the flight model, I said there was no major change in the flight model. If the Lot 20 is a dominant one circle fighter but not a good 2 circle one, it's not like that will change for the Super Hornet. I also never said it was the same as the Legacy Hornet's, I just said that it is so similar. A person who can cold start a Legacy can cold start a Super. They can still dogfight. They can still BVR fight. They can do pretty much everything that they could do in the Legacy Hornet.

You start to sound like you're trolling. It was already explained that for ED/DCS it's a new aircraft module and most (years of) work would have to be done from scratch despite whatever you think is similar - that's how it works. Any mod creator is free to apply for a 3rd party status as DCS module dev. So far no one is planning to do Super Hornet module and CJS' is visual shell only.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 11/5/2022 at 6:59 PM, shaneduce said:

With the F/A-18 E/F/G they all ready have a base airframe. I hope the bulk of the work would all ready be done. Just got to update the FM.

Noooo no no no. The Super Hornet and Legacy Hornet are barely related. Sure, the first Super Hornets came in Lot 20, but they were not terribly different from the Charlie we got. That's kind of a hard sell; it's a Legacy Hornet with more payload but worse dogfight performance.  And "Just got to update the FM" is a lot of work. On top of that, again, they'd have to do something about the rudimentary nature of radar jamming in DCS for us to get any jammer birds. At least, one with the value of the money spent. If it's just a Super Hornet with the current ECM on 'roids, I'm saving my money and I doubt I'd be alone. 

And I think ED understands that.

Edited November 8, 2022 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Noooo no no no. The Super Hornet and Legacy Hornet are barely related. Sure, the first Super Hornets came in Lot 20, but they were not terribly different from the Charlie we got. That's kind of a hard sell; it's a Legacy Hornet with more payload but worse dogfight performance.  And "Just got to update the FM" is a lot of work. On top of that, again, they'd have to do something about the rudimentary nature of radar jamming in DCS for us to get any jammer birds. At least, one with the value of the money spent. If it's just a Super Hornet with the current ECM on 'roids, I'm saving my money and I doubt I'd be alone. 

And I think ED understands that.

 

From what I understand, the E model performs just as well as the C model in terms of flight envelope; its still a dogfighting monster as it holds higher alpha than the legacy can. Point is that even though its different, its not much different...although the SF has a higher drag index.

[F-2]

57 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

From what I understand, the E model performs just as well as the C model in terms of flight envelope; its still a dogfighting monster as it holds higher alpha than the legacy can. Point is that even though its different, its not much different...although the SF has a higher drag index.

In terms of high alpha they are practically equivalent, maybe the super is better though most of what I’ve read implies they are pretty similar. In terms of sustained turn rate the 402 powered C vs a Block I E has a sustained turn rate advantage as confirmed by the GAO report. (50% fuel, two AMRAAM and two sidewinders) This is likely due to the 402 aircraft having a superior thrust to weight ratio and the super hornet being draggy. The Super Hornet has a stupid high CL max so it might have a better instantaneous turn rate, I don’t know enough about the Legacy bug to know either way. I do know a Eurofighter pilot claimed the superbug actually will have an advantage in the first pass before falling out of the sky. Subsonic acceleration is better then you might think, it’s between the Su-27 and Su-35 bellow mach 1 then it hits a wall.

[Jackjack171]

On 11/7/2022 at 5:02 PM, SilentSparrow said:

I never said there was no change in the flight model, I said there was no major change in the flight model. If the Lot 20 is a dominant one circle fighter but not a good 2 circle one, it's not like that will change for the Super Hornet. I also never said it was the same as the Legacy Hornet's, I just said that it is so similar. A person who can cold start a Legacy can cold start a Super. They can still dogfight. They can still BVR fight. They can do pretty much everything that they could do in the Legacy Hornet.

Key take away point, If NAVAIR thinks it is enough of a change that it required requalification, then that's enough. I too long for a Super Hornet but it's not as simple as you'd wish it to be.

[SkateZilla]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:23 PM, SilentSparrow said:

Oh, come on. The T/W ratio is nearly the same; they're both Hornets, so there's no major change in the flight model. I know there's a new cockpit, and I neglected the 3d model of the cockpit, but it will still not take long to make the cockpit because it is just so similar to the Legacy Hornet's. Don't worry about the 3d model of the F/A-18E/F/G, CJS has that nailed down. This is a lot less than a year's work.

 

3D Model Assumptions : Incorrect,
ED Cannot Build a Module with some one else's work, CJS's Mod Also uses a Model that was sublicensed, and they don't have permission to re-distribute to another developer for a commercial product. Nor to include it in a commercialized product of their own, nor do they have a Boeing License Agreement.

Flight Model Assumptions : Incorrect, 
It's Entirely Different. Not just a few changes.

-The FCS,
-Airframe Size and Weight
-Engines,
-Control Surfaces,
-Control Surface Logic,
-Input Processing,
-Sub Sonic Drag Index,
-Trans Sonic Drag Index,
-Super Sonic Drag Index,

Are all different on Super Hornets Starting with Block I Lot 21 LRIP.

Then when you move to Lot 24, You add more FCS Control Surface Logic, and Updated a few systems,
Then when you move to Lot 25, You change out the displays and the System Programming Language.


Judging my your comments, you should stick to just flying the unofficial "MOD" as that's exactly what you want, a Super Hornet External 3d Model, using a Legacy Hornet's systems and flight model.

Enjoy.

And yes I am more than qualified to state the above facts.

22 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Noooo no no no. The Super Hornet and Legacy Hornet are barely related. Sure, the first Super Hornets came in Lot 20, but they were not terribly different from the Charlie we got. That's kind of a hard sell; it's a Legacy Hornet with more payload but worse dogfight performance.  And "Just got to update the FM" is a lot of work. On top of that, again, they'd have to do something about the rudimentary nature of radar jamming in DCS for us to get any jammer birds. At least, one with the value of the money spent. If it's just a Super Hornet with the current ECM on 'roids, I'm saving my money and I doubt I'd be alone. 

And I think ED understands that.

 

Super Hornet LRIP Started at Lot 21

Edited November 9, 2022 by SkateZilla

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

3 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

 

Super Hornet LRIP Started at Lot 21

 

Thank you for the correction.

[Hammer1-1]

Also goes to mention that the air brakes on the SH are far different than on the legacy models. You dont have a pop out speed board on the spine, you have multiple boards popping out on the LERX, plus all that wind is funneled directly into the rudders...and the rudders deflect inboard. Pretty much the same operation you would see on the legacy, but you only see that when the flaps are down. IIRC -everything- is used to slow the SH down when you deploy the spoilers: rudder, spoilers, flaps, L/E flaps, ailerons...flight dynamics may be similar, cockpit may be familiar, but everything gets changed. The latest Blk 3 has an all glass cockpit and an AESA radar....which requires a secret security clearance to even sneeze on it in final assembly and Im not that popular yet. There arent any new orders after 2025, so the line might get shut down soon afterwards, so maybe wishes might happen? Itll just be a while.

[SkateZilla]

15 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Also goes to mention that the air brakes on the SH are far different than on the legacy models. You dont have a pop out speed board on the spine, you have multiple boards popping out on the LERX, plus all that wind is funneled directly into the rudders...and the rudders deflect inboard. Pretty much the same operation you would see on the legacy, but you only see that when the flaps are down. IIRC -everything- is used to slow the SH down when you deploy the spoilers: rudder, spoilers, flaps, L/E flaps, ailerons...flight dynamics may be similar, cockpit may be familiar, but everything gets changed. The latest Blk 3 has an all glass cockpit and an AESA radar....which requires a secret security clearance to even sneeze on it in final assembly and Im not that popular yet. There arent any new orders after 2025, so the line might get shut down soon afterwards, so maybe wishes might happen? Itll just be a while.

There is no dedicated "Airbrake" on the Super Hornet, the Control Logic just extends specific surfaces to increase drag. these surfaces change depending on AoA, Flap Position, Gear Position, etc etc. most of the time the LERX Spoilers arent even used.

with the USN Blk III Order and Upgrade program, the RAF Upgrade Program, Germany's Split Order. The line will be around for a while.

[Ithronwise]

6 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

There is no dedicated "Airbrake" on the Super Hornet, the Control Logic just extends specific surfaces to increase drag. these surfaces change depending on AoA, Flap Position, Gear Position, etc etc. most of the time the LERX Spoilers arent even used.

with the USN Blk III Order and Upgrade program, the RAF Upgrade Program, Germany's Split Order. The line will be around for a while.

Unfortunately Germany will not buy the Super Hornet/Growler anymore. Instead they will buy F-35A as nuke carrier and a modified two-seater EF-2000 as electronic warfare platform (which has to be developed first).

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

There is no dedicated "Airbrake" on the Super Hornet, the Control Logic just extends specific surfaces to increase drag. these surfaces change depending on AoA, Flap Position, Gear Position, etc etc. most of the time the LERX Spoilers arent even used.

with the USN Blk III Order and Upgrade program, the RAF Upgrade Program, Germany's Split Order. The line will be around for a while.

Thats what I was getting at - every flight control surface acts as a dedicated braking surface.

Germany pulled out of the F/A-18 order last I heard. No new customers on the line until (and if) India purchases it...and thats going to be highly unlikely at the moment. The only customer at the moment is the Navy with the Blk 3, and the last unit looks like it will be delivered in 2025 unless new customers are picked up. Not even a Growler has been built in the last 3 years, and there are airframes getting mothballed before they meet their 8000 flight hours. The program is on its last legs unfortunately.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[SkateZilla]

2 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Thats what I was getting at - every flight control surface acts as a dedicated braking surface.

Germany pulled out of the F/A-18 order last I heard. No new customers on the line until (and if) India purchases it...and thats going to be highly unlikely at the moment. The only customer at the moment is the Navy with the Blk 3, and the last unit looks like it will be delivered in 2025 unless new customers are picked up. Not even a Growler has been built in the last 3 years, and there are airframes getting mothballed before they meet their 8000 flight hours. The program is on its last legs unfortunately.

 

Blk III is pre-wired to Growler spec, so all F Blk IIIs are Growler Ready off the line.

I also forgot about Kuwait

Edited November 11, 2022 by SkateZilla

[Hammer1-1]

59 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Blk III is pre-wired to Growler spec, so all F Blk IIIs are Growler Ready off the line.

I also forgot about Kuwait

 

Not really. Sure they carry the same wing, but theres a lot of internal plumbing that need to go or get installed. The wings for instance - you have to remove the hydraulic lines and install a wiring harness in the outboard wing to support the jammer equipment, but AFAIK theres no conversion for it. Its either going to be one or the other unless those stations are going to sacrifice the wingtip pylon or jammer, or M61 or avionics system installed in the nose. I know this because I spent a number of months building wings for them in wing laydown. Matter of fact, I think the last few Growlers built the navy didnt even want or buy and from what Ive heard its just a Boeing asset now. Not sure what they do with it, but I caught a glimpse of the last one built in the line maintenance bay a few weeks ago alongside a few super hornets that went past their trap limit that were getting refurbished to 10k hours.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[F-2]

I wonder, the super hornet *might* be a better BVR platform then the hornet. The hornet can have a tough time getting passed Mach 1 with a BVR load out. The super hornet though can at least get up to mach 1 pretty quickly and has a smaller RCS. It’s just speculation but in the real world they are about even in terms of enemy aircraft killed with mid range missiles.

[Swift.]

7 hours ago, F-2 said:

I wonder, the super hornet *might* be a better BVR platform then the hornet. The hornet can have a tough time getting passed Mach 1 with a BVR load out. The super hornet though can at least get up to mach 1 pretty quickly and has a smaller RCS. It’s just speculation but in the real world they are about even in terms of enemy aircraft killed with mid range missiles.

Super hornet is slower than legacy. In fact I'm not even sure if it can go supersonic with more than a centerline on.

[=BoB= David]

27 minutes ago, Swift. said:

Super hornet is slower than legacy. In fact I'm not even sure if it can go supersonic with more than a centerline on.

That is not true mate... yes, superbug is bigger and heavier, but at the same time superbug has around 20% more powerful engines and better aerodynamic drag coeficient than legacy one...

[Swift.]

2 hours ago, =BoB= David said:

That is not true mate... yes, superbug is bigger and heavier, but at the same time superbug has around 20% more powerful engines and better aerodynamic drag coeficient than legacy one...

No one calls it superbug. 

It has better slow speed performance (including a slower landing speed), on account of the larger LEX for sure. But those same larger LEX cause problems at speed. More wing is more drag.

Not sure where you are getting your gouge from though, sounds like an interesting source...