AIM 54/Tomcat bans and prohibitions in competitive play due to easily reproducible missile desync

[RustBelt]

I mean, if you are going to go down the "Why does ED.....?" road, you're in for a troublesome ride.

[captain_dalan]

On 7/4/2021 at 5:50 AM, DoorMouse said:

The Aim54 has a reproducible exploit in PVP and is the only missile capable of it, and the tomcat is the only aircraft with that missile -IE Reporting it on the Tomcat bugs forum. Iron mike already acknowledged the issue, and said it was unknown to them - So problem solved? Is that okay with you? 

 

 

 

 

 

And HB have stated time and again that they have no control over the missile after it launches. Hence my comments.

[Whistler_RIO]

yeah, maybe its useful to mention or explain what a programming API is.  its a 'black-box' that you interface with by feeding values into, and it does its thing.  you can change the values, but you cant modify what it does with them.

YouTube is an example of an API.  you can build any website and house youtube videos, but you instance them by feeding youtube its required values, and it does what it does in a very restrictive way that you cannot override.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

On 6/7/2021 at 4:36 PM, Skysurfer said:

 

 

Currently if you get a STT + TCS lock then break the lock so only the TCS is slewed to the target you can fire and actually guide the Phoenix without it ever goind active or giving the enemy a spike (as far as we could tell during tests at least). Either way it is unrealistic and some sort of exploit rn. The way it should work is maddog off the rail with the seeker looking at the target (no midcourse guidence).

 

Has this been fixed ?
Good lord i just read the rest of this thread, there's so much more  ..... 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[IronMike]

7 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Has this been fixed ?
Good lord i just read the rest of this thread, there's so much more  ..... 

 

 

No, because it cannot be reproduced yet. Can you reproduce it -> pls show us how. Have you seen it even? We tested it with our testers multiple times, and every single time it would return an RWR warning. This is a problem with such issues. We get told they exist - and we do 100% believe you guys - but to fix them, we need to be able to reproduce them ourselves.

Thank you all for your input.

 

[Tank50us]

16 hours ago, IronMike said:

 

No, because it cannot be reproduced yet. Can you reproduce it -> pls show us how. Have you seen it even? We tested it with our testers multiple times, and every single time it would return an RWR warning. This is a problem with such issues. We get told they exist - and we do 100% believe you guys - but to fix them, we need to be able to reproduce them ourselves.

Thank you all for your input.

 

 

I get the feeling that the issue may not be something that's reproducible on mostly stable internet connections, it may be something that only occurs when someone is comparatively unstable internet like those that live in areas where fiber-optic cables just aren't around or available. There's a host of possibilities here.

 

On 7/5/2021 at 3:14 PM, RustBelt said:

I mean, if you are going to go down the "Why does ED.....?" road, you're in for a troublesome ride.

 

Yeah, ED seems to have an issue where one one person of high standing says one thing, but then someone else of equally high standing says something completely different. The ones I think people should listen to the most are Nineline, Wags, and Nick (the freaking CEO!). They're the ones pushing hard for multiplayer, and have even championed it on a few occasions (Wags did so in the 10 things trailer). But, for the kind of Multiplayer balancing many people want to have, ED would have to have a bunch of dedicated servers hosting 'quick drop' games where people pick a plane, and hop in War Thunder style. But odds are we'll never see something like that until maybe MAC comes around.

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

I get the feeling that the issue may not be something that's reproducible on mostly stable internet connections, it may be something that only occurs when someone is comparatively unstable internet like those that live in areas where fiber-optic cables just aren't around or available. There's a host of possibilities here.

 

Network latency can be simulated with relative ease, but it takes some equipment and knowledge.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

I  heard DCS has no lag compensation like most online games ? 
At these ranges and speeds .... https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1054208330?t=03h10m40s

Shooter was going mach 0.97. 
What happens if he goes mach 1.x ? 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[GGTharos]

It doesn't, and it works fine most of the time.  Except for the times it doesn't.

[Breakshot]

When will the Tomcat (the platform that has the best ECM for defense in DCS) be itself affected by ECM from other aircraft? When will Aim-54s be brought to standards in regards to HOJ shots like other missiles? When will the tomcat radar be affected by ECM just like the other jets?

 

These are all questions fundamental to the BVR combat in MP. 

 

About time these things are looked at. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Breakshot

[captain_dalan]

7 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I  heard DCS has no lag compensation like most online games ? 
At these ranges and speeds .... https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1054208330?t=03h10m40s

Shooter was going mach 0.97. 
What happens if he goes mach 1.x ? 

 

 

Nope. There was a recent GS video, he was on his own server, flew into a valley pursuing a bandit. This was all WVR BTW, the bandit was in front of him, then behind him, then who knows were. All inside a 5 mile bubble. This happens relatively often, at least on busy servers where a lot of the clients have widely different latencies.

[Breakshot]

When will the Tomcat (the platform that has the best ECM for defense in DCS) be itself affected by ECM from other aircraft? When will Aim-54s be brought to standards in regards to HOJ shots like other missiles? When will the tomcat radar be affected by ECM just like the other jets?
 
These are all questions fundamental to the BVR combat in MP. 
 
About time these things are looked at. 

@ironmike

Отправлено с моего STV100-2 через Tapatalk

[DSplayer]

On 7/18/2021 at 10:58 AM, IronMike said:

 

No, because it cannot be reproduced yet. Can you reproduce it -> pls show us how. Have you seen it even? We tested it with our testers multiple times, and every single time it would return an RWR warning. This is a problem with such issues. We get told they exist - and we do 100% believe you guys - but to fix them, we need to be able to reproduce them ourselves.

Thank you all for your input.

 

I don't know if I am the first person to discover it since I discovered it while playing around with the Tomcat in late May of 2021 but here's how it goes. You first STT lock someone with the radar and get in range for a TCS acquisition or manually slew the TCS over to the target (which wont give them the warning of course) then you switch the TCS slave to INDEP (or TCS) then switch the WCS to standby. Then you change the TCS slave to TCS/slave the radar to it (if you didn't do it already) and fire a missile (which you can still do with the WCS on standby). The target that you've fired at cannot evade through normal means to defeat a radar missile. Think of it of a TCS guided Fox 1 with the perks of a Fox 2 with the only problem being the gimbal limits. Here's an example I recorded with my friend when I was multicrewing in a PvP server: https://streamable.com/hfypvb. This of course has no place to be used in the competitive scene as it just is unsportsmanlike to exploit something of this nature. Feel free to hit me up if you need more info on this.

Edited July 25, 2021 by DSplayer

[Breakshot]

Aim-54ET.



Works as intended.

Отправлено с моего STV100-2 через Tapatalk

[Naquaii]

4 hours ago, DSplayer said:

I don't know if I am the first person to discover it since I discovered it while playing around with the Tomcat in late May of 2021 but here's how it goes. You first STT lock someone with the radar and get in range for a TCS acquisition or manually slew the TCS over to the target (which wont give them the warning of course) then you switch the TCS slave to INDEP (or TCS) then switch the WCS to standby. Then you change the TCS slave to TCS/slave the radar to it (if you didn't do it already) and fire a missile (which you can still do with the WCS on standby). The target that you've fired at cannot evade through normal means to defeat a radar missile. Think of it of a TCS guided Fox 1 with the perks of a Fox 2 with the only problem being the gimbal limits. Here's an example I recorded with my friend when I was multicrewing in a PvP server: https://streamable.com/hfypvb. This of course has no place to be used in the competitive scene as it just is unsportsmanlike to exploit something of this nature. Feel free to hit me up if you need more info on this.

 

 

I'll have a talk with Gyro about this, I'm guessing this is exclusive to the AIM-54 as the AIM-7 shouldn't be able to launch without the WCS XMIT on? This scenario is realistic but you very much should get an active missile warning and it should perform as such except for launching in the right direction. If we can reproduce this we might have to talk to ED about this specific case as we're already telling the missile to launch active.

 

And yes, I don't really see how people feel like this is a fair way to play pvp if this is possible, especially if in a tournament. Why even participate if you clearly cheat? That said that doesn't mean this is less of a priority for us to fix.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Naquaii

[QuiGon]

6 hours ago, DSplayer said:

I don't know if I am the first person to discover it since I discovered it while playing around with the Tomcat in late May of 2021 but here's how it goes. You first STT lock someone with the radar and get in range for a TCS acquisition or manually slew the TCS over to the target (which wont give them the warning of course) then you switch the TCS slave to INDEP (or TCS) then switch the WCS to standby. Then you change the TCS slave to TCS/slave the radar to it (if you didn't do it already) and fire a missile (which you can still do with the WCS on standby). The target that you've fired at cannot evade through normal means to defeat a radar missile. Think of it of a TCS guided Fox 1 with the perks of a Fox 2 with the only problem being the gimbal limits. Here's an example I recorded with my friend when I was multicrewing in a PvP server: https://streamable.com/hfypvb. This of course has no place to be used in the competitive scene as it just is unsportsmanlike to exploit something of this nature. Feel free to hit me up if you need more info on this.

 

This is some ugly witchery right there. Besides the missile stuff I'm also wondering about the WCS behaviour, because I don't really understand what is going on, when you set the WCS to standby and select STT at 2:24 in the video. At that point  non of the radar mode buttons is green anymore, which I have never seen before. Usually one of them is always green, even when WCS is in standby. You also set the TCS slave mode to radar slaved with the radar not transmitting which doesn't make any sense to me...

 

I think Heatblur really needs to take a look at this!

 

Edit:

Having given it some more thought watching the video again I think I managed to get my head around it now and it kinda makes sense to me now. I haven't really used RDR slave much, so I'm not very experienced with it and how the WCS behaves in this mode, but I guess all the radar mode buttons to the right of the DDD just go dark if the radar is slaved to the TCS and that happens regardless of WCS XMIT status. It also doesn't happen when STT gets pushed, but when RDR slave mode gets selected, which I missed when watching it the first time.

Phoenix not going active in that case is still another issue of course.

Edited July 25, 2021 by QuiGon

[Naquaii]

16 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

This is some ugly witchery right there. Besides the missile stuff I'm also wondering about the WCS behaviour, because I don't really understand what is going on, when you set the WCS to standby and select STT at 2:24 in the video. At that point non of the radar ode buttons is green anymore, which I have never seen before. Usually one of them is always green, even when WCS is in standby. You also set the TCS slave mode to radar slaved with the radar not transmitting which doesn't make any sense to me...

 

I think Heatblur really needs to take a look at this!

 

 

The WCS works the same in both STBY and ON (XMIT), in STBY the radar energy gets sent to a dummy load instead though. This inhibits hot trigger for AIM-7 as it needs radar guidance but it still allows it for AIM-54 as it don't for ACM modes. Slaving the radar to TCS still works and the antenna will follow but silently. The issue here is that the target should get an active missile RWR indication as soon as the missile is in range and the missile should only steer once to the correct line of sight after launch and then not guide until it acquires the target on its own when in range. It shouldn't really be a thing for over, say 20NM and if it is we might have to start to artificially limit this in some way. The RWR warning this is strange and sounds to me like we have to talk to ED about that as at that point the missile should really be a normal active missile giving a warning to the target by itself.

[QuiGon]

After watching the video again and giving it some more thought I think I understand what the WCS is doing there now and have edited my previous post accordingly.

Edited July 25, 2021 by QuiGon

[DSplayer]

3 hours ago, Naquaii said:

 

I'll have a talk with Gyro about this, I'm guessing this is exclusive to the AIM-54 as the AIM-7 shouldn't be able to launch without the WCS XMIT on? This scenario is realistic but you very much should get an active missile warning and it should perform as such except for launching in the right direction. If we can reproduce this we might have to talk to ED about this specific case as we're already telling the missile to launch active.

 

And yes, I don't really see how people feel like this is a fair way to play pvp if this is possible, especially if in a tournament. Why even participate if you clearly cheat? That said that doesn't mean this is less of a priority for us to fix.

 

Yeah my testing concluded that only the AIM-54 can be launched with the WCS on STBY as the AIM-7's have the launch button not lit up while it is on STBY. Even then, because the range of the Sparrow, it isn't worth it in the first place to use a "silent" Sparrow when ACM modes like PAL exist.

For silent AIM-54 operation, you can select the radar mode prior to launch (like selecting PD-STT for a "Fox 1" guided by the TCS which wouldn't give a warning at all since it doesn't go active and allowing a loft profile while, if I remember correctly, choosing P-STT still does give an active warning when the missile is close enough for an active warning) and it will allow for totally silent operation or silent till active.

Edited July 25, 2021 by DSplayer

[Naquaii]

3 minutes ago, DSplayer said:

Yeah my testing concluded that only the AIM-54 can be launched with the WCS on STBY as the AIM-7's have the launch button not lit up while it is on STBY. Even then, because the range of the Sparrow, it isn't worth it in the first place to use a "silent" Sparrow when ACM modes like PAL exist.

 

Then that's working how we coded it at least. The AIM-7 ofc can't launch silent as it would be completely ballistic.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

On 7/25/2021 at 12:25 PM, DSplayer said:

I don't know if I am the first person to discover it since I discovered it while playing around with the Tomcat in late May of 2021 but here's how it goes. You first STT lock someone with the radar and get in range for a TCS acquisition or manually slew the TCS over to the target (which wont give them the warning of course) then you switch the TCS slave to INDEP (or TCS) then switch the WCS to standby. Then you change the TCS slave to TCS/slave the radar to it (if you didn't do it already) and fire a missile (which you can still do with the WCS on standby). The target that you've fired at cannot evade through normal means to defeat a radar missile. Think of it of a TCS guided Fox 1 with the perks of a Fox 2 with the only problem being the gimbal limits. Here's an example I recorded with my friend when I was multicrewing in a PvP server: https://streamable.com/hfypvb. This of course has no place to be used in the competitive scene as it just is unsportsmanlike to exploit something of this nature. Feel free to hit me up if you need more info on this.

 

So this works not only on FC3 aircraft.
How is it check-able if people are not only ruining other people's fun on casual servers but also using it in matches ?

Also thanks for not sharing this earlier @DSplayer 
I mean why would you not post this somewhere the second when you (presumably -_-) find it out ? 
And you specifically mentioning that you 'only' found this out 3 months ago makes me think you knew much longer but whatever. 

 

g*ddamned i hate the F14 so much these things just keep piling up  .  

Edited July 27, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[IronMike]

15 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

So this works not only on FC3 aircraft.
How is it check-able if people are not only ruining other people's fun on casual servers but also using it in matches ?

Also thanks for not sharing this earlier @DSplayer 
I mean why would you not post this somewhere the second when you (presumably -_-) find it out ? 
And you specifically mentioning that you 'only' found this out 3 months ago makes me think you knew much longer but whatever. 

 

g*ddamned i hate the F14 so much these things just keep piling up  .  

 

 

 

Look bud, you can hate the F-14, that is your right. You can hate us even, no problem. But if you do not change your attitude on our forums, and especially towards other forum members, we will give you a temporary, if not permanent moderation sanction. You really, really need to stop being so (passively) aggressive about these things, it only brings negative energy, and that will not make anything be fixed sooner. I hope you realize that even my patience, and I can assure you I have plenty of it, gets stretched thin with an attitude like this. It is counter productive. Instead of being like this, work with us (everyone here on the forums) and PROVE what you claim, and we can work together to fix the issues. Thank you.

@BIGNEWY and @NineLine - please keep an eye on it as well. Thank you ever so kindly!

[DoorMouse]

@IronMike I think the usefulness of this thread has run its course and its just going to devolve.  Its not up to me but It seems like it should be locked.

 

Thank you for the HB team acknowledging that they are aware of this. I know its not easy to do but we would all love a timeline from you and/or your partners at ED about when some of these items will be fixed, and when the "Missile API" might be implemented. 

As to not throw knives into the dark - I'd HIGHLY encourage you to start an ongoing dialogue with the Community members @X-man@M0ltar who are organizing these events.  Ask them explicitly what they find to be questionable and what items need to be addressed and how.  The first step I think is getting the truth out about some of the community "Knowledge"  (I suspect there is a lot of misunderstanding and hearsay) and get feedback from them (longstanding items like the TCS Slaved Radar which have existed since launch). 

 

Please. Start a conversation. I am sure it would benefit all parties.

 

Appreciate it, and we (on all sides of the conversation, it would seem) are looking forward to seeing this resolved.