CMS Operation

[ShaunX]

21 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Good question. Did some testing. See previous diagram updated.

Thanks for testing.

I guess it makes sence that if you want to release countermeasures you'd also want to try an break lock !

[WHOGX5]

46 minutes ago, ShaunX said:

Thanks for testing.

I guess it makes sence that if you want to release countermeasures you'd also want to try an break lock !

Well, it doesn't make 100% sense as it's currently implemented in DCS. Chaff is most effective near the notch and (IIRC) the ALQ-184 as a +-30° cone fore and aft where it's effective. So when you're in an aspect where you want to drop chaff you wouldn't want to use the jammer and vice versa. I just assume that the SEMI and AUTO modes in the real F-16 are advanced enough to adapt to the aspect of the aircraft to the engaging unit, otherwise it feels like they'd be completely useless, just constantly jamming and dropping countermeasures as long as you're spiked, no matter the situation.

[ShaunX]

On 12/29/2021 at 12:14 PM, WHOGX5 said:

Well, it doesn't make 100% sense as it's currently implemented in DCS. Chaff is most effective near the notch and (IIRC) the ALQ-184 as a +-30° cone fore and aft where it's effective. So when you're in an aspect where you want to drop chaff you wouldn't want to use the jammer and vice versa. I just assume that the SEMI and AUTO modes in the real F-16 are advanced enough to adapt to the aspect of the aircraft to the engaging unit, otherwise it feels like they'd be completely useless, just constantly jamming and dropping countermeasures as long as you're spiked, no matter the situation.

Thanks, I really hadn't considered that.

So, would you say, with the DCS implementation, that if would be more effective to use CMS fwd or left to dispense, and only use aft and right to activate and deactivate ECM as appropriate ?

[WHOGX5]

1 hour ago, ShaunX said:

Thanks, I really hadn't considered that.

So, would you say, with the DCS implementation, that if would be more effective to use CMS fwd or left to dispense, and only use aft and right to activate and deactivate ECM as appropriate ?

To each his own, but that's what I'm planning on doing. The only thing I'm unsure of is that the ECM seems to be implemented in a way so that you can't have radar priority in MAN mode, only ECM priority (radar gets silenced). I've been out of town since the last patch released though so I haven't had the opportunity to try it for myself. The way I have my CMS set up is PRGM 1-4 for regular chaff as well as pre chaff/flare, CMS left for my flare program and slap switch for emergency chaff and flares. However, if I can only use radar priority in SEMI / AUTO, then I'll use SEMI and just set the program to drop zero chaff/flare and drop them manually using PRGM 5-6 instead.

Another reason why using SEMI isn't a good idea is that when you're within, as an example, approximately 25 nm of your target you usually want to turn your ECM off as modern missiles can home on jam and there's no point in blasting your ECM within burn-through range of the enemy radar anyways as that just gives your position away. But turning off your ECM with CMS right will also remove consent for the SEMI mode. So your pretty much stuck between choosing between ECM and chaff or no ECM and no chaff. As it seems there's no in-between in the current implementation.

[Bunny Clark]

7 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

Another reason why using SEMI isn't a good idea is that when you're within, as an example, approximately 25 nm of your target you usually want to turn your ECM off as modern missiles can home on jam and there's no point in blasting your ECM within burn-through range of the enemy radar anyways as that just gives your position away. 

HOJ is an overemphasized threat. A missile in HOJ mode does not have any range to target information and must fly a degraded intercept path which will make it more easy to defeat with simple maneuvering. If you're flying a proper BVR pattern to defeat an ARH missile shot, a HOJ missile shot will also be defeated. 

Inside burn-through range giving away your position isn't much of a concern. They can see you on radar and lock you up at that range, so if they can see the jamming on the their radar scope, they'd can see your aircraft on the radar scope jamming or not. 

This is mostly irrelevant to the Viper anyway, since in SEMI the jammer functions in a mode designed to attack specific threat radars and break their lock, not in a barrage noise jamming mode. You are therefore granting consent to the jammer to protect you from an active threat that is tracking your aircraft, not to broadcast radio noise at everyone within 50nm. A gate-pulloff attack like the jamming pod uses in SEMI and AUTO will not show up as jamming on an enemies radar, nor is it targetable by a HOJ missile. 

[Wychmaster]

Am 31.12.2021 um 20:10 schrieb Bunny Clark:

HOJ is an overemphasized threat. A missile in HOJ mode does not have any range to target information and must fly a degraded intercept path which will make it more easy to defeat with simple maneuvering. If you're flying a proper BVR pattern to defeat an ARH missile shot, a HOJ missile shot will also be defeated. 

While this makes sense, how do you know that the missile is actually defeated if you do not have eyes on it? It won't give you any RWR indication. In this case I think it is safer to turn off the jammer, isn't it?

[twistking]

I think it got answered before already, but i tested it myself and want to confirm, that in SEMI mode CMS forward will dispense your chosen Programm, while CMS aft will dispense a program that was selected by the system, which is independent from anything you have set up manually.

I think a good set-up for a mixed threat scenario would be to set-up and select a flare-centric program to dispense with CMS fwd and to rely on semi mode automatic selection to counter radar threats with CMS aft...

*edit* changed TMS to CMS. Thanks @Dannyvandelft

Edited January 3, 2022 by twistking

[Dannyvandelft]

I think it got answered before already, but i tested it myself and want to confirm, that in SEMI mode TMS forward will dispense your chosen Programm, while TMS aft will dispense a program that was selected by the system, which is independent from anything you have set up manually.
I think a good set-up for a mixed threat scenario would be to set-up and select a flare-centric program to dispense with TMS fwd and to rely on semi mode automatic selection to counter radar threats with TMS aft...

I think you mean CMS, not TMS.

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[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

On 1/3/2022 at 2:43 AM, twistking said:

I think it got answered before already, but i tested it myself and want to confirm, that in SEMI mode CMS forward will dispense your chosen Programm, while CMS aft will dispense a program that was selected by the system, which is independent from anything you have set up manually.
I think a good set-up for a mixed threat scenario would be to set-up and select a flare-centric program to dispense with CMS fwd and to rely on semi mode automatic selection to counter radar threats with CMS aft...
*edit* changed TMS to CMS. Thanks @Dannyvandelft

 
CMS Fwd - Yes but not while it's still dispensing its own program after a consent via CMS Aft. (You can have a look at the mapping diagram I posted earlier in this thread.) To save C/F, I might say use the SEMI for its helpful prompt but select say FWD for flares, and CMS left for chaff.     
 

Edited August 14, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[twistking]

12 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

CMS Fwd - Yes but not while it's still dispensing its own program after a consent via CMS Aft. (You can have a look at the mapping diagram I posted earlier in this thread.) To save C/F, I might say use the SEMI for its helpful prompt but select say FWD for flares, and CMS left for chaff.

You are right. I see that as a problem too. I already asked @BIGNEWY to check with the team if that is indeed realistic behaviour. I would have assumed that CMS forward would override semi-auto dispense or that it would run both programs at the same time.

ps: You've put your answer within the quote of my post.

Edited January 8, 2022 by twistking

[Floydii]

Has anyone been able to get CMS semi or auto mode to dispense the "Current generation radar SAM" or "IR SAM" programs rather than the "Old generation radar SAM" program? 

You can program all 3 in the CMDS_ALE47.lua, but I only ever seem to get the old gen program regardless of which track radar has me (Tested SA2, SA15 and SA10 to get the oldest and newest gen SAMs in-game.). 

I'd expect there should be a table that stipulates which tells the CMDS which program to run for any given emitter. Example SA10 or SA11 track/launch would trigger the 'current' profile whilst SA2 or SA3 would trigger the 'old gen' profile and an SA13 (with its ranging radar) would trigger the IR program.

I haven't found anything like this table and wonder if ED simple hasn't yet implemented the logic for it.

Anyone else have any different or similar experiences.

[Dragon1-1]

Well, for one, the Viper has no MWS, so any IR SAM program needs to be dispensed manually. Also, there's no automatic program selection in the Viper. You've got 5 of them, and you can program them all to your liking. You have to select them manually according to the threat you're facing.

[_SteelFalcon_]

15 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, for one, the Viper has no MWS, so any IR SAM program needs to be dispensed manually. Also, there's no automatic program selection in the Viper. You've got 5 of them, and you can program them all to your liking. You have to select them manually according to the threat you're facing.

Not entirely correct. The cmds.lua contains 5 manual programs, the bypass program and 3 additional programs for semi/auto. And the 3 semi/auto programs are being used when the cmds is set to semi or auto and activated with cms aft. By my understnding it should choose 1 of the 3 programs from the semi/auto category depending on the threat.

while the switch is in semi/auto, you can still also use the manually selected program that is set with the prgrm knob (1-4) by pressing cms fwd and you can use the slap switch for program 5 

in the early access guide, cmds stuff can be found at page 300

Edited May 3, 2022 by _SteelFalcon_

[Floydii]

5 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, for one, the Viper has no MWS, so any IR SAM program needs to be dispensed manually. Also, there's no automatic program selection in the Viper. You've got 5 of them, and you can program them all to your liking. You have to select them manually according to the threat you're facing.

 okay, that doesn't answer the question and has factual errors.

First, you don't need an MWS to tell you that an SA13 has illuminated you with its ranging radar shortly before it fires. What it does allow you to do is to react by banging out alot of flares, preferably before and during the SA13 firing. It's not a common combo (single target ranging radar paired with VSHORAD IR missile), but it does allow the aforementioned defeat mechanism to occur.

 

Second, the DCS F16 has the following programs (per the CMDS_ALE47.lua):

 

1-4 on the PRGM knob        
        MAN_1 = counter(),
	MAN_2 = counter(),
	MAN_3 = counter(),
	MAN_4 = counter(),

PANIC
	MAN_5 = counter(),

BYPASS on the Program Knob
	MAN_6 = counter(),

Old generation SAM
	AUTO_1 = counter(),

Current Generation SAM
	AUTO_2 = counter(),
IR SAM
	AUTO_3 = counter(),

These 3 are currently not listed as discrete programs and may be added later
	AUTO_4 = counter(),
	AUTO_5 = counter(),
	AUTO_6 = counter(),

My count is 12 programs with 9 usable.

As Steelfalcon helpfully points out AUTO 1-3 are the programs that Semi and Auto should currently choose from when responding to a given radar threat.

Now, back to my previous question please.

[itn]

29 minutes ago, Floydii said:

I haven't found anything like this table and wonder if ED simple hasn't yet implemented the logic for it.

Anyone else have any different or similar experiences.

Quite sure it's not implemented yet. A few patches back I did some quick tests with similar results.

[Dragon1-1]

14 minutes ago, Floydii said:

As Steelfalcon helpfully points out AUTO 1-3 are the programs that Semi and Auto should currently choose from when responding to a given radar threat.

I'm pretty sure that is not correct. No matter what is in the DCS internal configs, the real F-16 dispenses the selected program, AFAIK. CMS forward dispenses it right now, no questions asked, and CMS aft in SEMI or AUTO will simply consent to release whenever the system decides it should be the case. None of them will override the pilot and automatically pick the program, and there's no extra programs IRL, either. It only has those 6.

What you're describing sounds like how DCS A-10 currently works, and I'm not sure that is correct, either. It might be, but remember that it was implemented long before we had proper jammer implementation. Countermeasure systems are sensitive stuff, it's quite possible the A-10's was entirely or partially made up (remember, the original A-10 was made a long time ago).

[Se1ko]

23 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I'm pretty sure that is not correct. No matter what is in the DCS internal configs, the real F-16 dispenses the selected program, AFAIK. CMS forward dispenses it right now, no questions asked, and CMS aft in SEMI or AUTO will simply consent to release whenever the system decides it should be the case. None of them will override the pilot and automatically pick the program, and there's no extra programs IRL, either. It only has those 6.

What you're describing sounds like how DCS A-10 currently works, and I'm not sure that is correct, either. It might be, but remember that it was implemented long before we had proper jammer implementation. Countermeasure systems are sensitive stuff, it's quite possible the A-10's was entirely or partially made up (remember, the original A-10 was made a long time ago).

Ok then, so what are these lines for in the CMDS_ALE47 LUA file?:

-- Auto presets
-- Threat type 1
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_1] = {
    chaff = {
        burstQty     = 1,
        burstIntv    = 0.02,
        salvoQty    = 4,
        salvoIntv    = 1.5,
    },
    flare = {
        burstQty    = 0,
        burstIntv    = 0,
        salvoQty    = 0,
        salvoIntv    = 0,
    },
}

-- Threat type 2
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_2] = {
    chaff = {
        burstQty     = 1,
        burstIntv    = 0.02,
        salvoQty    = 6,
        salvoIntv    = 1,
    },
    flare = {
        burstQty    = 0,
        burstIntv    = 0,
        salvoQty    = 0,
        salvoIntv    = 0,
    },
}

-- Threat type 3
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_3] = {
    chaff = {
        burstQty     = 1,
        burstIntv    = 0.02,
        salvoQty    = 8,
        salvoIntv    = 0.5,
    },
    flare = {
        burstQty    = 0,
        burstIntv    = 0,
        salvoQty    = 0,
        salvoIntv    = 0,
    },
}

 

[Floydii]

That's nice about the real F16C - maybe you can give me a joyflight sometime.

From the manual for the DCS F16C (page 301)

• SEMI – The aircraft systems determine the program to be dispensed based on the threat. Consent to dispense must be given by positioning the CMS aft.

• AUTO – The aircraft systems determine the program to be dispensed based on the threat. Countermeasures are dispensed automatically. This mode must also be enabled by positioning the CMS aft. It may be disabled by selecting CMS right.

 

Now, the LUA explicitly identifies the auto programs by what type of threat they counter vs the manual programs which are very much random chaff/flare combos by default. The reason  they are identified is the CMDS should match the threat to a to the correct auto program (hence my comment on a table that assigns threat radars to prompt the correct Auto program to be selected).

 

The whole reason for the semi/auto mode is to prevent the pilot from having to select a program on the short time between being locked up and getting launched on. Setting program 1-4 is a deliberate pre-emptive decision.

[Frederf]

On 1/8/2022 at 12:08 PM, twistking said:

You are right. I see that as a problem too. I already asked @BIGNEWY to check with the team if that is indeed realistic behaviour. I would have assumed that CMS forward would override semi-auto dispense or that it would run both programs at the same time.

ps: You've put your answer within the quote of my post.

 

I also assume that manual initiation interrupts or overlaps with automatic dispense. Sorry, can't give you a flare, in the middle of an anti-radar routine; not seeing it.

[cmbaviator]

Hello gents, new on the f16 here.

 

I always fly with the ECM pod when doing A-A, before Take Off, i always set the Counter panel to SEMI and the ECM pod is set to A with Counter AFT, but when i have a missile launch i use the Counter FORWARD to dispense chaff and Flare ( programm 1 by default). Should I press again on Counter AFT when i want to dispense chaff or decided by the Counter measures computer or only when i hear " COunter" ?

[_SteelFalcon_]

13 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

Hello gents, new on the f16 here.

 

I always fly with the ECM pod when doing A-A, before Take Off, i always set the Counter panel to SEMI and the ECM pod is set to A with Counter AFT, but when i have a missile launch i use the Counter FORWARD to dispense chaff and Flare ( programm 1 by default). Should I press again on Counter AFT when i want to dispense chaff or decided by the Counter measures computer or only when i hear " COunter" ?

If you press forward, you despense the selected program  (1-4, depending on knob position). But if you press aft, one of the semi programs will be deployed depending on the threat

Edited August 9, 2022 by _SteelFalcon_

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

On 8/9/2022 at 8:40 PM, cmbaviator said:

Hello gents, new on the f16 here.

 

I always fly with the ECM pod when doing A-A, before Take Off, i always set the Counter panel to SEMI and the ECM pod is set to A with Counter AFT, but when i have a missile launch i use the Counter FORWARD to dispense chaff and Flare ( programm 1 by default). Should I press again on Counter AFT when i want to dispense chaff or decided by the Counter measures computer or only when i hear " COunter" ?

As already mentioned, if you go CMS FWD, you are in essence only using SEMI for its prompter "counter" and not its other purpose which is to dispense what it 'deems fit' (chaff only though) with CMS AFT. Doing CMS FWD always dispenses the PROG (1 to 4 only) you have selected on the knob unless in BYP mode where it is then fixed to 1C+1F. Note also that while SEMI is dispensing after going CMS AFT, doing CMS FWD will not work until the dispensing is completed, and this is the same with AUTO.

Note that CMS AFT in SEMI and AUTO only dispenses chaff since the system cannot detect IR missiles as explained in another thread here. So SEMI and AUTO modes are only good for radar guided missiles, and be careful that CMS AFT while actively dispensing chaff, will prevent you from using CMS FWD/LEFT for some needed flares if an IR missile is inbound.

CMS Diagram

[Updated]

Edited August 14, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[cmbaviator]

1 minute ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

As already mentioned, if you go CMS FWD, you are in essence only using SEMI for its prompter "counter" and not its other purpose which is to dispense what it deems fit with CMS AFT. Doing CMS FWD always dispenses the PROG (1 to 4 only) you have selected on the knob unless in BYP mode where it is then fixed to 1C+1F. Note also that while SEMI is dispensing after going CMS AFT, doing CMS FWD will not work until the dispensing is completed, and this is the same with AUTO.  

Thanks for the information.

 

so the ECM computer in Semi auto knows if the incomming missile is a FOX 2 so in this case, will only release Flares and if its a FOX1 or 3 release only  chaffs ?

 

if the ECM computer is that good at knowing the type of the incomming missile, i will then use CMS AFT and only CMS Forward like a panic button

[rob10]

15 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

so the ECM computer in Semi auto knows if the incomming missile is a FOX 2 so in this case, will only release Flares and if its a FOX1 or 3 release only  chaffs ?

NO!  The ECM computer has no way of detecting IR missiles launch/tracking let alone identifying that it is an IR missile vs radar missile.  It will only be of use against radar "guided" missiles.  If there are no radar emissions associated with the missile (missile itself or another radar guiding it), it doesn't know it exists.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

10 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

Thanks for the information.

 

so the ECM computer in Semi auto knows if the incomming missile is a FOX 2 so in this case, will only release Flares and if its a FOX1 or 3 release only  chaffs ?

 

if the ECM computer is that good at knowing the type of the incomming missile, i will then use CMS AFT and only CMS Forward like a panic button

I updated my earlier post with regard to IR missiles and SEMI/AUTO modes.