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FalcoGer
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I'm a little confused by the countermeasure switch on the F16. In a certain other F16 simulator it is set up such as this:

UP: Dispense selected program
LEFT: Dispense Program 5 (out of 6)
DOWN: Consent SEMI/Turn on ECM
RIGHT: Stop Consent/Stop Auto/ECM off
SLAP: Dispense Program 6

However in DCS it's somewhat different. (Page 299 in manual)

Fwd: Dispenses selected manual program
Aft: Gives consent in SEMI and enables AUTO dispense modes
Left: No function
Right: Disables AUTO dispense mode
Slap Switch: No mention in manual (Section I-28)

On top of all of this there are 5 programs in the CMDS DED page.

Online I could find this information (Page 63), but I don't which one is correct or if there are multiple different software versions or whatever. It seems to however make no sense to me to leave Left with no function.

Fwd: Select Manual program 1-4 or if BYP selected MDF programmed program
Aft: Semi Consent, Enable Auto
Right: Disable Auto, ECM off
Left: ECM on
Slap: Dispense program 5 (Page 224)

I am also confused on how Auto and Semi work. Does it actually check which programs have what type of programming in them or does it use some other, internal programs that are not set via DED, does it use the default program numbers even though you might have changed them. How does it determine which program to use/how to dispense the countermeasures.

Personally I prefer to have two controls for chaff and flares separately so I don't waste any time fiddling with the mouse to reach for that little knob down there and select another program or waste expendables and potentially give away my position by dumping both.

It would be really nice if we could set up our CMDS programs like in the jf17 in the main menu. And indeed have that for all aircraft that have different programs. At least until we have our DTC. (when?)

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I share your feelings regarding the defensive suite of our Viper, but I am certain 

that ED will revisit it, sooner or later.

 

In the meantime, to only dispense either chaff or flares, I set program 1 to dispense flares and set program 5 to chaff, since in a BVR engagement there's always the time to take the hand off the throttle and to use the slap-switch (or in our case, to press the appropriate key on the keyboard).

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My understanding of the EW described in the HAF doc (which really shouldn't be assumed to resemble the USAF system) is that SEMI/AUTO dispensing happens based on MDF definitions. MDF determines how the system responds on a per-threat basis and what level of consent is required: blanket consent or per threat. Manual programs are simple affairs as set in DTC and activated by CMS forward. If the knob is set to program 1 (or 2, 3, 4), program 1 (or 2, 3, 4) is dispensed (or not). The system does not determine manual program selection, pilot does.

 

Semi and auto dispense work on the concept of consent. Semi requires consent from the pilot once per defensive engagement while auto has persistent consent across multiple engagements. E.g. in semi mode someone fires a missile at you, VMS says "counter", pilot chooses to give dispense consent by button press, system dispenses until threat is over. Later if a second missile is fired the pilot is again prompted and would have to press the button again. In auto mode pilot sets consent and system dispenses in reaction to all threats.

 

EW equipment can change a lot between country and by year perhaps more than any other system. CMS left switch does different things to different customers.


Edited by Frederf
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I understand that there are different versions and excuse me for not finding the USAF manual. I found what I could get my hands on.
I also understand the difference between semi and auto. I just wonder how it chooses what program to execute, if any, that is if it makes a program up on the fly.
Still CMS left as nothing seems like an obvious bad choice for a free hotas control.

I guess I'll just bind it to the slap switch and set program 1 to flares and program 5 to chaff.

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You won't and neither will I. The RWR finds a threat and looks in the MDF file to find the appropriate response to it. The system sends a dispense program to the dispenser. Anyone who knows how the threat input gets turned into dispenser output isn't allowed to say. It's at least as sophisticated as a table look up of one program per threat but could be multiple options per threat (MiG-29 far in front, close front, behind, etc.) or even intelligently created on the fly (probably not).

 

CMS left seems to often control jammer stuff and since we don't have jammers yet there's nothing to put there.

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Yup, the DCS CMS is true to the HAF dash34, with the addition of EMC controls. I'm not sure where BMS got their info from or if it's any more accurate to a USAF jet or not. 

 

In DCS the slap switch dispenses Program 5. Program 6 is used for Bypass mode, I'm not sure if that's a real label or if that's just the way it's coded in DCS because it is entered after the slap switch in the file. 

 

In DCS Auto and Semi draw from a different set of programs that are not able to be edited in the jet. I would assume that this is true in the real jet as well, as I don't know how the system would associate customized manual programs to specific emitters. 

 

In DCS you can modify any of the programs in the .lua file, including the Auto and Semi ones, not that they're implemented yet anyway.

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  • 6 months later...

Would this be right for the latest open beta as of today?

CMS Switch
FWD:  Dispense selected Prog 1-4
LEFT:  Dispense Prog 6
AFT:  Enable AUTO, ECM to Active  (No "Consent SEMI" here since you need to manually dispense (FWD or LEFT) after audio prompt in SEMI)
RIGHT:  Disable AUTO, ECM to Standby

Dispense Button
Dispense Prog 5

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37 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Would this be right for the latest open beta as of today?

CMS Switch
FWD:  Dispense selected Prog 1-4
LEFT:  Dispense Prog 6
AFT:  Enable AUTO, ECM to Active  (No "Consent SEMI" here since you need to manually dispense (FWD or LEFT) after audio prompt in SEMI)
RIGHT:  Disable AUTO, ECM to Standby

Dispense Button
Dispense Prog 5

Yup 👍

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7 hours ago, TEOMOOSE said:

Yup 👍

Hmm... not quite. I did some testing. It's more like this...

CMS Switch
FWD:  Dispense selected Prog 1-4
LEFT:  Dispense Prog 6
AFT:  Enable AUTO, Dispense SEMI/AUTO Prog manually, ECM to Active
RIGHT:  Disable AUTO, ECM to Standby for SEMI only

Dispense Button
Dispense Prog 5

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18 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Hmm... not quite. I did some testing. It's more like this...

CMS Switch
FWD:  Dispense selected Prog 1-4
LEFT:  Dispense Prog 6
AFT:  Enable AUTO, Dispense SEMI/AUTO Prog manually, ECM to Active
RIGHT:  Disable AUTO, ECM to Standby for SEMI only

Dispense Button
Dispense Prog 5

  • MAN – The selected manual program may be dispensed by positioning the CMS forward on the stick, CMS aft turns on ECM - CMS right turns off ECM.

  • SEMI – The aircraft systems determine the program to be dispensed based on the threat.  Consent to dispense must be given by positioning the CMS aft on the stick, CMS aft puts ECM to Active and jamming is automatic or CMS right standby.

  • AUTO – The aircraft systems determine the program to be dispensed based on the threat.  Countermeasures are dispensed automatically. This mode must also be enabled by positioning the CMS aft on the stick. It may be disabled by selecting CMS right.

  • BYPASS – This is selected to allow manual dispensing of countermeasures when failures prevent the other modes from working.

    I believe it should be like this.


Edited by TEOMOOSE
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4 hours ago, TEOMOOSE said:
  • MAN – The selected manual program may be dispensed by positioning the CMS forward on the stick, CMS aft turns on ECM - CMS right turns off ECM.

  • SEMI – The aircraft systems determine the program to be dispensed based on the threat.  Consent to dispense must be given by positioning the CMS aft on the stick, CMS aft puts ECM to Active and jamming is automatic or CMS right standby.

  • AUTO – The aircraft systems determine the program to be dispensed based on the threat.  Countermeasures are dispensed automatically. This mode must also be enabled by positioning the CMS aft on the stick. It may be disabled by selecting CMS right.

  • BYPASS – This is selected to allow manual dispensing of countermeasures when failures prevent the other modes from working.

    I believe it should be like this.

 

Regarding CMS Aft and CMS Right

MAN/BYP Modes
CMS Aft - ECM to Transmit for MAN XMIT 3 only. (No effect in BYP XMIT 1/2/3 and MAN XMIT 1/2.)
CMS Right - ECM to STBY for MAN XMIT 3 only. (STBY is default in BYP XMIT 1/2/3 and MAN XMIT 1/2.)
If ECM is transmitting in SEMI/AUTO and you switch to MAN/BYP, it will continue to transmit but will not be functional after CMS Right (ECM STBY).

SEMI Mode:
CMS Aft - ECM to Active in XMIT 1/2. (No effect in XMIT 3.)
CMS Aft - Dispenses prog determined by SEMI so long as being tracked (which starts audio prompt "Counter!") or missile inbound but not otherwise.
CMS Right - Puts ECM in STBY regardless if transmitting or not. (STBY is default in XMIT 3.)

AUTO Mode (Regardless of XMIT mode):
CMS Aft - Enables AUTO (a prog determined by AUTO will dispense automatically when tracked or missile inbound).
                  ECM to Active.
CMS Aft - Manually dispenses prog (determined by AUTO) so long as being tracked or missile inbound but not otherwise.
CMS Right - Puts ECM in STBY only when not transmitting. If ECM is transmitting, it will not go to STBY.

(Updated)


Edited by GrEaSeLiTeNiN
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So I've understood this much like @TEOMOOSE and @GrEaSeLiTeNiN has. What I wonder is if I'm in SEMI or AUTO mode and press CMS up, will I still dispense my manual PRGM 1-4? Becuase at least in the F-16 countermeasures .lua there are three programs in addition to program 1-6 which govern the SEMI and AUTO response to different threats; one is IR SAM, one old radar and one for new radars. This makes me think that we'd actually be able to have 4 different programs on hand at once in SEMI / AUTO; CMS up for PRGM 1-4, CMS Left for PRGM 6, slap switch for PRGM 5 and CMS Down for whichever program is selected by SEMI or AUTO mode.

EDIT: Typo


Edited by WHOGX5

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In the Video from Matt he mentioned that the SEMI funktion does only release chaff and flare "based on the selected programm". In all the declassified manuals (f.e. T.O.GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1, page 1-205 to 1-209) it is said, that it will dispensed based on the threat, which makes much more sense because otherwise the SEMI function is nothing more then a manual release of the selected programm.

Is Matt wrong in his video or did I missed something? Can someone clarify this?

Matts Video (Min: 2:16)

 

 

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24 minutes ago, jojojung said:

In the Video from Matt he mentioned that the SEMI funktion does only release chaff and flare "based on the selected programm". In all the declassified manuals (f.e. T.O.GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1, page 1-205 to 1-209) it is said, that it will dispensed based on the threat, which makes much more sense because otherwise the SEMI function is nothing more then a manual release of the selected programm.

Is Matt wrong in his video or did I missed something? Can someone clarify this?

Matts Video (Min: 2:16)

 

 

No, CMS Aft in SEMI or AUTO does not dispense the currently selected prog number. It dispenses a prog that it deems fit. That's what I noticed when testing.


Edited by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

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48 minutes ago, WHOGX5 said:

So I've understood this much like @TEOMOOSE and @GrEaSeLiTeNiN has. What I wonder is if I'm in SEMI or AUTO mode and press CMS up, will I still dispense my manual PRGM 1-4? Becuase at least in the F-16 countermeasures .lua there are three programs in addition to program 1-6 which govern the SEMI and AUTO response to different threats; one is IR SAM, one old radar and one for new radars. This makes me think that we'd actually be able to have 4 different programs on hand at once in SEMI / AUTO; CMS up for PRGM 1-4, CMS Left for PRGM 6, slap switch for PRGM 5 and CMS Down for whichever program is selected by SEMI or AUTO mode.

EDIT: Typo

Yes CMS Fwd in SEMI or AUTO will still dispense the currently selected prog number, unless Chaff/Flare are LO, at least that's what I am seeing in this current beta. 

 

 

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SEMI always pops flares and chaff alltough I am not near the ground and only an SA2 is locking me. 

Why does it think I need flares?

It seems like it is always deploying the same Programm with chaff and flare. 

AUTO does the same I think. 


Edited by Rhinozherous

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Because semi in the current tape we get apparently doesnt choose the program but rather just uses the selected program. None of the default cmds programs are only chaff or only flares. Default program 1 is 10 chaff and 10 flares. You‘d have to manually change the programs to not contain any flares or chaff depending on what you want, using the cmds ded page to edit the programs.

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vor 44 Minuten schrieb _SteelFalcon_:

Because semi in the current tape we get apparently doesnt choose the program but rather just uses the selected program. None of the default cmds programs are only chaff or only flares. Default program 1 is 10 chaff and 10 flares. You‘d have to manually change the programs to not contain any flares or chaff depending on what you want, using the cmds ded page to edit the programs.

Please can you give us your reference for that. Because that would make no sense because then you could do it manual by yourself, the only difference would be the "counter" audio. Why should someone develop auch a semi mode. By all the documentation I read the semi and the auto mode should choose a programm depending on the thread. In the beta semi does not use the selected programm. Maybe @BIGNEWY or @NineLinecan clarify that.

 

It is for the hellenic F16 Block 50 but just Google "T.O.GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1" and go for page 1-205 to 1-209

There should be a notification in the RWR too.


Edited by jojojung
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28 minutes ago, jojojung said:

Please can you give us your reference for that. Because that would make no sense because then you could do it manual by yourself, the only difference would be the "counter" audio. Why should someone develop auch a semi mode. By all the documentation I read the semi and the auto mode should choose a programm depending on the thread. In the beta semi does not use the selected programm. Maybe @BIGNEWY or @NineLinecan clarify that.

 

It is for the hellenic F16 Block 50 but just Google "T.O.GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1" and go for page 1-205 to 1-209

There should be a notification in the RWR too.

 

In the linked post below it is not mentioned that the plane chooses the program, it only says that the selected program will be deployed upon giving consent. I recall reading that somewhere on the forum that the 4.2+ doesnt choose programs by itself. but i currently cannot find that post sadly, maybe someone else can.
 

 

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Hey guys I just do some testing at the BETA and give you the simple test mission and the track file. I would be happy if someone could confirm the results!

 

Discription of the testing visible in the trackfile: I fly at 20.000 ft straight to a SA2. In the beginning I set up the CMDS Mode to SEMI and leave the programm to 1. I put ECM XMIT to 1 and activate 1-5 ECM modules and pull the CMS aft to activate the ECM.
Then i try CMS up to check up (programm 1 is released) and then I try CMS aft a few times (no reaction).  When I got looked and the counter warning is heared i pulled CMS aft which pushed out chaff till the look is broken. The next to counter warnings a repeat the CMS aft. To the end when a do a break to the left a puhed CMS up two times for check whats happening with CMS up with an active radar look and again programm 1 is released.


Summary:

Settings: In CMDS mode "SEMI" with programm 1 selected against an SA 2 with ECM XMIT 1 and Active:

1) Without a look (very beginning at the track file): CMS forward: Just active the selected programm just the same as it would do in MAN mode; CMS back: activate the ECM to active after that no function without a look

2) With a look SA2: "Counter" warning, CMS forward does activate the selected programm 1 but CMS back does only release chaff until the look is broken  and than counter is call out again as the SA2 gets a new look, but the CMS aft doest push out any flares.

 

Conclusion:

So first the CMDS does choose a programm depending on the thread and dont push out flares because its a SA2 in the open beta.

Second: the HOTAS CMS commands are the same as in the manual! To do the automatic release based on the threat in SEMI you have to CMS aft not forward. It verify the information given by the T.O.GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1.
There it is said on page: 1-207 to 1-208
"When CMS forward is selected and the CMDS mode is MAN, SEMI, or AUTO, the CMDS dispenses the manual program selected on the CCU. [...]
CMS right disables the automatic dispense function of the CMDS, regardless of the position of the MODE knob on the CCU.
CMS aft gives consent to the CMDS to dispense when the mode is SEMI. CMS aft also enables the automatic function again, if it was disabled, regardless of the position of the MODE knob on the CCU."

 

 

So it worked perfectly as it should at the moment. Very nice!


PS: The only thing that confuses me is the statement of @Wags in the Video and the post in the Viper Updates thread. Maybe it would be usefull for ED to clarify the HOTAS commands because the video and the forum thread is misleading a little bit, because I think the automatic reponse based on the threat itself and the hotas reaction in SEMI mode is not mentioned in the right way.

CMDS test.trk CMDS test.miz

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30 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

I believe this is how it is working at the moment (latest open beta).

image.png

 

Thanks for that. I have a question though..

When CMS it configured as Semi, CMS AFT consents to appropriate release after "Counter" prompt

When ECM is also switched on, and xmit = 1 , CMS AFT will activate the ECM

So, what happens in the scenario when ECM is currently inactive, "counter" is heard and you press CMS AFT ?

Is ECM also activated or just CM released ? I would assume the latter

If so, or you decide not to consent, is there are fixed time after which CMS AFT can then be used to activate ECM rather than consent to the previous "Counter" prompt ?

 

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2 hours ago, ShaunX said:

Thanks for that. I have a question though..

When CMS it configured as Semi, CMS AFT consents to appropriate release after "Counter" prompt

When ECM is also switched on, and xmit = 1 , CMS AFT will activate the ECM

So, what happens in the scenario when ECM is currently inactive, "counter" is heard and you press CMS AFT ?

Is ECM also activated or just CM released ? I would assume the latter

If so, or you decide not to consent, is there are fixed time after which CMS AFT can then be used to activate ECM rather than consent to the previous "Counter" prompt ?

 

Good question. Did some testing. See previous diagram updated.

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