correct as-is Should the TGP be this difficult?

[dporter22]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'm having great difficulty understanding the F-16 TGP functions.  

 

In the A-10, you can slew the TGP no matter what mode you're in, you can boresight it back to center when needed, you can TMS forward long to easily set the SPI, you can quickly slave the TGP to a steerpoint or markpoint, etc.  Very useful and very easy.

 

In the F-16, as far as I can tell, the TGP is always looking at a steerpoint whether you want it to be or not, you can only slew when in CCRP, you can't boresight if you want to look at the area you're in rather than the steerpoint, there is Snowplow but it's basically useless because you can't slew, etc.

 

 

[Mikeck]

Yep. Tgp on the F-16 is a pain…but I think that’s the way it works. I gave up using the TGP with Mavs

[Frederf]

Sensors are SPI-slaved or providing SPI. It's very much like A-10 except there is no TMS forward long to set a SPI generating sensor. It's automatic based on context.

 

Causing the TGP to "stare" at a boresight position is an antiquated concept. TGP is always looking at something until it's looking at something else. A boresight "home" position is a nervous tick on the part of the pilot. Put it out of your mind. With radar, helmet, mark points, DTOS, EO/IAM VIS and to a lesser extent snowplow getting the TGP pointed the way you want will not be a problem. Right now we're missing a lot of tools in the toolbox.

 

What's going to be cool is TGP in AA mode. You HSD SOI a L16 track as PDLT. Slave TGP PDLT and track. Follow the octogon radar silent until in firing position. DGFT, ACM NO RAD, TMS right to slave ACM to TGP track. Lock and fire within two seconds of radar emission from NEZ and immediately back into silent. It's like submarine warfare.

[MTM]

9 hours ago, dporter22 said:

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'm having great difficulty understanding the F-16 TGP functions.  

 

In the A-10, you can slew the TGP no matter what mode you're in, you can boresight it back to center when needed, you can TMS forward long to easily set the SPI, you can quickly slave the TGP to a steerpoint or markpoint, etc.  Very useful and very easy.

 

In the F-16, as far as I can tell, the TGP is always looking at a steerpoint whether you want it to be or not, you can only slew when in CCRP, you can't boresight if you want to look at the area you're in rather than the steerpoint, there is Snowplow but it's basically useless because you can't slew, etc.

 

 

dporter22, I'm learning the Viper right now too and yes the TGP functionality is a bit of a pain, but there's an easy way to search areas that aren't near steerpoints...

 

When you bring up the TGP page on an MFD, go into Snowplow (SP) mode. Then TMS Up to go into Point Track or TMS Right to go into Area Track, whichever you want. Your SPI is now ground stabilized and directly in front of your aircraft AND SLEWABLE. Slew it straight up until the SPI box is visible in the HUD. Now you're good to go and you can scan/slew whatever you want!

 

I also recommend downloading Chucks DCS F-16 Guide. It's VERY helpful!

 

Good luck my friend!

[dporter22]

8 hours ago, Frederf said:

Causing the TGP to "stare" at a boresight position is an antiquated concept. TGP is always looking at something until it's looking at something else. A boresight "home" position is a nervous tick on the part of the pilot. Put it out of your mind. With radar, helmet, mark points, DTOS, EO/IAM VIS and to a lesser extent snowplow getting the TGP pointed the way you want will not be a problem

 

I don't find it antiquated to be able to efficiently swing the TGP with one button press to a target right in front of me that's not a steerpoint, or to quickly get eyes on a location called out by a wingman or controller that I need to check for hostiles, or any other situation where the TGP would be useful, but I can't because the TGP is looking somewhere irrelevant at the moment and requires several steps just to get it pointed where I need it right now.

 

I'm just learning so I could be wrong, but in the F-16 you can't easily make markpoints and slew the TGP to them, you can't quickly slew the TGP to a desired steerpoint, your steerpoints are offsetting all around even when you can slew the thing so you have to go back heads down in the cockpit to zeroize everything again, even if you have autohandoff  for the Mavs it may or may not actually do so and you can't simply slew the Mav seeker to the TGP with one HOTAS press, etc. 

 

Without boresight, or a quick way to get the TGP looking at what's near you instead of some steerpoint, you're wasting a lot of time going into different modes, or making a new steerpoint, etc.  I've flown several practice A/G missions and I just give up because I can literally see ground targets in front of me, but who knows what the TGP is doing and I can't just look at the targets that are sitting right there.

 

I'm not knocking the Viper, just having frustrations with it coming from the A-10 where everything I described can be done in half a second with one or two button presses. 

[Xavven]

If I'm interpreting what Frederf said correctly, we should wait until the F-16 is finished before making that judgment. It may be that a boresight mode on the TGP is unnecessary because there are even better ways to get sensors on target. For example DTOS or making a markpoint with your JHMCS, which I'm imagining is similar to the DCS A-10C II module today with the scorpion HMCS.

 

In the meantime, for a target of opportunity where there's no steerpoint nearby, my go-to is to use snowplow mode on the TGP followed by an immediate TMS-right. You're now free to slew the TGP and you have a target designation cursor on the HUD, so now you can put the thing on the thing.

[WHOGX5]

17 hours ago, dporter22 said:

 

I don't find it antiquated to be able to efficiently swing the TGP with one button press to a target right in front of me that's not a steerpoint, or to quickly get eyes on a location called out by a wingman or controller that I need to check for hostiles, or any other situation where the TGP would be useful, but I can't because the TGP is looking somewhere irrelevant at the moment and requires several steps just to get it pointed where I need it right now.

 

I'm just learning so I could be wrong, but in the F-16 you can't easily make markpoints and slew the TGP to them, you can't quickly slew the TGP to a desired steerpoint, your steerpoints are offsetting all around even when you can slew the thing so you have to go back heads down in the cockpit to zeroize everything again, even if you have autohandoff  for the Mavs it may or may not actually do so and you can't simply slew the Mav seeker to the TGP with one HOTAS press, etc. 

 

Without boresight, or a quick way to get the TGP looking at what's near you instead of some steerpoint, you're wasting a lot of time going into different modes, or making a new steerpoint, etc.  I've flown several practice A/G missions and I just give up because I can literally see ground targets in front of me, but who knows what the TGP is doing and I can't just look at the targets that are sitting right there.

 

I'm not knocking the Viper, just having frustrations with it coming from the A-10 where everything I described can be done in half a second with one or two button presses. 

Like Frederf and Xavven mentioned, it will get better once we get closer to feature complete. Doing A-G in the F-16 is extremely clunky at the moment. That's partially due to a lack of essential systems but also due to the fact that all the systems that have already been implemented aren't in a fully completed state either. There are multiple ways to get your TGP onto a target that you have acquired visually in a short amount of time, but none of the good alternatives are implemented at the moment.

[TheBigTatanka]

Right now, the viper works great as a strike fighter. Set a steerpoint in your target area if you don't have the exact target coordinate, and use the TGP as you approach the target from medium altitude, or use it in your pop from low-altitude to fine tune the target location for weapons employment.

It also works great in dynamic CAS with a JTAC who gives you coordinates that you can punch in.

Both of these things require a little bit of mission planning and in the case of CAS, some friends to JTAC for you.

When it comes to single player, just roaming around a kill box looking for things to blow up isn't the viper's strong suit. But, if you think about the design philosophy of the aircraft.... It makes sense that it wouldn't be. Dynamic targeting is complex, and we don't have the network of resources that would make it more viable in DCS. Now, If you could get a lat/long to check out from some other agency -- that would be different.

FREDERF knows what he's talking about, he is very well read when it comes to this skill set. It will get easier when it is further along -- and if, for now, you always use the jet in relation to steer points, it's a beautiful system.

That air to air TGP stuff sounds awesome -- approaching a poor man's sensor fusion.

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[TheBigTatanka]

It's not untrue. Fysa, moderators on this forum can be pretty sensitive to any comparison with other sims / will say the thread is off topic and lock it. It's their forum, so we can't really complain. It doesn't always adhere to the standards of civil discourse we are used to in our culture.

As far as ease of use of the TGP (or any other sensor) -- i really think the issue is that aside from the HTS, the viper isn't the best tool for dynamic targeting where it has to generate coordinates from the pilot's eyeballs.

A more realistic dynamic targeting scenario would be where you get a message from a controlling agency that such and such a drone or sensor has detected some activity at X coordinates or bullseye location, and asks you to go take a look. You could then punch in the cords and go look.

A more recent version of the software (not sure if this existed in 07) has a PRE page in the DED where you can punch in a "threat" by bullseye location, set the size of the ring to display, and label it. Theoretically you could then hook that on the HSD and slave your sensors there. Maybe just slaving your HSD cursor there and making a mark point would be easier -- I'm not sure what's the best answer -- i fly big airplanes and probably over complicate things.

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[NineLine]

51 minutes ago, TheBigTatanka said:

moderators on this forum can be pretty sensitive to any comparison with other sims / will say the thread is off topic and lock it. It's their forum, so we can't really complain. It doesn't always adhere to the standards of civil discourse we are used to in our culture.

Dear TheBigTatanka, its easy to blame mods for this, sure, but if you have read the rules, its in there clear as day, as well, here at Eagle Dynamics, we are trying to model the real thing, not duplicate an older game. While we appreciate feedback and bug reports, unless it comes from real sources, it can not be vetted as real data. Thanks.

[rubbra]

Ah, apologies NineLine! I am completely happy with that post being moderated - though it really wasn't meant to be a DCS bash at all more a "look what will be coming"! (And if I wasn't happy with it, also so what - this is ED's forum, their rules!)

Edited July 5, 2021 by rubbra

[TheBigTatanka]

Dear TheBigTatanka, ...While we appreciate feedback and bug reports, unless it comes from real sources, it can not be vetted as real data. Thanks.

For sure. Not trying to assign blame, you guys are doing your job and doing it well in an often unnecessarily tough environment. Please don't think that I'm not supportive of the work the mods do around here.

I think for those who flew the jet in real life, or have access to the real docs -- it's often easier and safer to just say "go check out how it works there -- it's something like that." It's also said with a belief that ED will get there eventually, and go beyond in terms of realism and functionality (as it already has in a few fields).

No one wants to imply that just anything should be a source of data. Some things, however, can be a useful reference when trying to explain a pretty complex world to guys who maybe just entered the world of combat aviation.

I'm often thinking of ways to help guys who just got into flight sims navigate the complexities of employing early access modules -- thought and resources have to go into that from the community so that they get hooked the way that so many of us did 20-30 years ago.

So, when a poster, like the OP here, asks about a switchology issue or had a switchology problem, i think it's often a context-problem with situating the jet within the broader arena of theater level air war. So, when people here write something like "go check out how this stuff works in this other thing".... It's really the difference between how you can develop tactics and employ an aircraft that is early access vs one that isn't.

Perhaps I should make an informative video showing some of the tactical uses that the current version of the jet is great at, as well as mission sets that are limited by the current EA state.

To get this back on topic to the OP -- One's expectations of the jet have to be adjusted to the current capabilities of the module. You really won't get frustrated with the module or the TGP, of you build your tactics and missions around the current capabilities of the jet.

Sorry for the long post, 9 years of graduate school broke my ability to be brief.



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[NineLine]

41 minutes ago, rubbra said:

Ah, apologies NineLine! I am completely happy with that post being moderated - though it really wasn't meant to be a DCS bash at all more a "look what will be coming"! (And if I wasn't happy with it, also so what - this is ED's forum, their rules!)

 

No worries rubbra, just because it was hidden doesnt mean we thought you were bashing us either, I get that some games have features we would love to have as well, we just have to balance how we share that, in a bug thread we need to stick to credible data, this is not a knock on any other devs or games, simple the bar we hold ourselves to. Thanks!

[rubbra]

No worries rubbra, just because it was hidden doesnt mean we thought you were bashing us either, I get that some games have features we would love to have as well, we just have to balance how we share that, in a bug thread we need to stick to credible data, this is not a knock on any other devs or games, simple the bar we hold ourselves to. Thanks!

Ah, I think ‘cos I read this forum and others through Tapatalk, it’s pretty hard to know that this is a bug thread. I just see the topic title of “should TGP be this hard?”


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[dporter22]

I appreciate everyone's input and ED's efforts.  As a new guy to this module I was just expressing my frustration that I never know whether something is an actual bug, or if it's a feature that is supposed to work eventually, or if the manual is inaccurate in it's explanations, or if IRL the TGP really is so difficult to use and there really is no simple way to look at something right in front of me or the other things I mentioned.  

[TheBigTatanka]

Those are all valid questions, and ones that we need to do a better job answering for guys who are new to the module or the hobby. And it's hard to keep up to date, since things change all the time. Luckily.... This sim has a lot of passionate people who really dig into the details of how things work and what that means.

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[SCPanda]

On 7/4/2021 at 3:37 PM, Frederf said:

Sensors are SPI-slaved or providing SPI. It's very much like A-10 except there is no TMS forward long to set a SPI generating sensor. It's automatic based on context.

 

Causing the TGP to "stare" at a boresight position is an antiquated concept. TGP is always looking at something until it's looking at something else. A boresight "home" position is a nervous tick on the part of the pilot. Put it out of your mind. With radar, helmet, mark points, DTOS, EO/IAM VIS and to a lesser extent snowplow getting the TGP pointed the way you want will not be a problem. Right now we're missing a lot of tools in the toolbox.

 

What's going to be cool is TGP in AA mode. You HSD SOI a L16 track as PDLT. Slave TGP PDLT and track. Follow the octogon radar silent until in firing position. DGFT, ACM NO RAD, TMS right to slave ACM to TGP track. Lock and fire within two seconds of radar emission from NEZ and immediately back into silent. It's like submarine warfare.

Well, the enemy would be really dumb to not see you coming. I assume you meant to do this within 10 miles since you mentioned ACM and DGFT. 

 

F-16 is not a F-22, I doubt it can sneak within 10 miles of any pilot knows what he/she is doing. I mean if the enemy flies a F-18 or F-16, AWACS and datalink would just tell them where you are. Also, to get Link 16 track you need to have line of sight with your friendly or your AWACS, which means flying low is not really an option. 

 

This just sounds like the Flanker/Russian tactic for me, why not just utilize F-16's thrust and weight ratio? Fly high and fast, shoot your 120s in high energy state. It's what the F-16 is designed to to. 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by SCPanda

[Bunny Clark]

On 7/4/2021 at 11:03 AM, dporter22 said:

I don't find it antiquated to be able to efficiently swing the TGP with one button press to a target right in front of me that's not a steerpoint, or to quickly get eyes on a location called out by a wingman or controller that I need to check for hostiles, or any other situation where the TGP would be useful, but I can't because the TGP is looking somewhere irrelevant at the moment and requires several steps just to get it pointed where I need it right now.

Boresight is antiquated, there's a reason on the updated A-10C it was removed from the HOTAS and made an OSB on the TGP page. Why would you lock the TGP to a single fixed point when you can easily point it anywhere you can look?

 

The problem is that the Viper is just missing all of the functions that allow you to visually designate a SPI. Once we get DTOS mode, you'll be able to set SPI with a slewable cursor on the HUD and the TGP will jump right to it. Once we have A/G functions for JHMCS you'll be able to designate SPI with the helmet by looking at a target, and again the TGP will jump right to it. The problem isn't that the Viper itself is clunky, just that it isn't finished yet. 

 

Quote

but in the F-16 you can't easily make markpoints and slew the TGP to them

Markpoints aren't implemented at all yet. 

 

Quote

your steerpoints are offsetting all around even when you can slew the thing so you have to go back heads down in the cockpit to zeroize everything again

TMS Down twice will command CZ. 

[dporter22]

Thanks for the TMS down CZ command.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on the boresight option.  There are tons of times when I need to just get things recaged after maneuvering violently, or after target priorities have changed on the fly, or if a new threat pops up nearby, or when the TGP has hit the gimbal limit, or when it has decided to slew off for no reason, etc. and I want to quickly get eyes on.  Very easy in the Hog, not so much in the Viper.

[Ignition]

Its really annoying without AG mode in JHMCS. For mavericks I usually use the HUD as SOI and then refine with the TGP but you need to fly towards the enemy in a very fast jet.

[MTM]

I have a related question and rather than start a separate topic, I think it ought to be part of this discussion…

 

Part of what makes the TGP so difficult in the viper is the image quality is very poor. I’ve gotten good at slewing it around quickly to search wherever I want to search, but I can’t tell what I’m looking at. Adjusting brightness and contrast can help a little but in order to use it effectively you have to be very close to your target. Inside 10 miles in most cases. Is this how it is IRL?! How do real viper pilots ever find anything?! If it’s accurate to real life, then so be it. I’m just praying it’s an early access issue and later updates will give us the same TGP image quality as the Hornet.

[Furiz]

1 hour ago, MTM said:

I have a related question and rather than start a separate topic, I think it ought to be part of this discussion…

 

Part of what makes the TGP so difficult in the viper is the image quality is very poor. I’ve gotten good at slewing it around quickly to search wherever I want to search, but I can’t tell what I’m looking at. Adjusting brightness and contrast can help a little but in order to use it effectively you have to be very close to your target. Inside 10 miles in most cases. Is this how it is IRL?! How do real viper pilots ever find anything?! If it’s accurate to real life, then so be it. I’m just praying it’s an early access issue and later updates will give us the same TGP image quality as the Hornet.

 

Yep it is like that, I don't know if it is exactly modeled, but it is difficult to figure out whats what at distance, the pod is not from 2021, it is at least 15 years old, now imagine 15year old tech zooming in on a tank 20 miles out, the picture cant be perfect right? Flir has even worse resolution than normal.

[Dragon1-1]

It is accurate. LITENING doesn't produce movie-quality images with its camera. ATFLIR and Sniper are better, but not by much. Thermal imaging is worse. Digital zoom doesn't help as much as it does in DCS, either. You can spot vehicles just fine because of the hot engines, but it's pretty hard to tell what exactly they are.

 

As for how they find stuff IRL? FACs and JTACs.  The whole point of having a guy (or girl, these days) on the ground with a laser pointer and a belt of smoke grenades, or in a Cessna with WP rockets, is to remove any ambiguity as to where and what the target is. Otherwise, you might end up bombing your own troops, as it happened at one point with a Sniper-toting B-1. 

[dporter22]

It's interesting that the F-16 TGP image quality is significantly worse than the A-10 in DCS.

[TobiasA]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Dragon1-1:

It is accurate. LITENING doesn't produce movie-quality images with its camera. ATFLIR and Sniper are better, but not by much. Thermal imaging is worse. Digital zoom doesn't help as much as it does in DCS, either. You can spot vehicles just fine because of the hot engines, but it's pretty hard to tell what exactly they are.

 

As for how they find stuff IRL? FACs and JTACs.  The whole point of having a guy (or girl, these days) on the ground with a laser pointer and a belt of smoke grenades, or in a Cessna with WP rockets, is to remove any ambiguity as to where and what the target is. Otherwise, you might end up bombing your own troops, as it happened at one point with a Sniper-toting B-1. 

 

IR is currently no IR, it is dark at night. Just dark.