requested Proposal for VR head limits implementation

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

5 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

And it can happen in most of the warbirds. But in the 109k your head will go through unless you actively work hard to avoid it. I have to like force my head down into my shoulders when I turn my head. Or I'll go through the canopy. 

Let’s just say for example you were in the actual aircraft. How would you avoid this discomfort exactly?

Not saying it’s not happening. I just feel that the “it’s a cheat”weenies” are unbelievably hypocritical and turn a blind eye to everything they use to their advantage while crying about everything else. 
MUCH more important is that they need to fix the game so it actually works for EVERYONE the way it’s supposed to regardless of viewing choice before fixing nitpicking things for the vocal minority 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Mr. Big.Biggs

[SharpeXB]

57 minutes ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

And so is moving your head slightly to the left and looking completely over your shoulder… stop with your one sided arguments 

You can look over your shoulder IRL

7 hours ago, upupandaway said:

Following this line of argument, freedom of movement for TIR should be massively limited, because it´s much harder scanning your rear quadrant with VR goggles.

Playing in VR is a choice. If you feel it puts you at a disadvantage and that’s important enough for you, then don’t use VR. But handicapping the other players isn’t a reasonable solution. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

It is so glaring violation of world physics that it hurts eyes and screams for a fix or an option at least.

This^
The glaring violation of reality strikes me as a huge quality flaw (using TrackIR in other flight sims without a canopy limit) it just destroys any sense that the aircraft is “real”

and it’s not just the canopy, your head can move into the headrest etc 

There should be an option for this in DCS and to have it as a server setting. 

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

16 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You can look over your shoulder IRL

Playing in VR is a choice. If you feel it puts you at a disadvantage and that’s important enough for you, then don’t use VR. But handicapping the other players isn’t a reasonable solution. 

Exactly 

I choose VR. If my head goes through the canopy I don’t give a crap. Not sure how saying “leave it alone and fix real problems “ doesn’t square with your babbling??

But again it’s because of the hypocritical whining professional simmers that only see things that they want to as problematic 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Mr. Big.Biggs

[Lt_Jaeger]

23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This^
The glaring violation of reality strikes me as a huge quality flaw (using TrackIR in other flight sims without a canopy limit) it just destroys any sense that the aircraft is “real”

 

Hmm, but my real head actual moving while it doesn't in the sim is "reality"? 

 

Guess the best solution is to fix a laundry basket over your head and you got reality. 

I thought I'm too old to fly as a wannabe Pilot but I seam still fit enough to keep my head under control and in the virtual cockpit, exept I deliberately stick it out to watch the beauty of an DB605 exhaust stack. 

 

[SharpeXB]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

If my head goes through the canopy I don’t give a crap

But there are other players who do care. I’m sure this will be a setting that can be turned on an off as desired. Except in MP where everyone needs to be kept equal. 

3 minutes ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

Hmm, but my real head actual moving while it doesn't in the sim is "reality"? 

Well as “real” as can be attempted in VR, it can’t simulate physical objects. Unless you go build yourself a cockpit. That’s just the nature of VR and this can’t be easily solved. 

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But there are other players who do care. I’m sure this will be a setting that can be turned on an off as desired. Except in MP where everyone needs to be kept equal. 

I am with you 100% so in multi player head movements should be restricted to 1 to 1 period. Not our fault you choose to play with a single monitor 

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

Let’s just say for example you were in the actual aircraft. How would you avoid this discomfort exactly?

I'd probably hear and feel a bang a few times until I know the limits. The motion stop and thump sound is what I expect from the sim. Look, the limit is there since the beginning of DCS - it's just not there yet in VR part.

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

Just now, draconus said:

I'd probably hear and feel a bang a few times until I know the limits. The motion stop and thump sound is what I expect from the sim. Look, the limit is there since the beginning of DCS - it's just not there yet in VR part.

Not objecting to “limit” manpower permitting. I’m objecting to the term “cheat”. Nobody cheats by deliberately sticking head out windows. That said greater than 1to1 head movement is a “cheat”  used every flight…
You can’t have it both ways 

[draconus]

1 minute ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

I’m objecting to the term “cheat”. Nobody cheats by deliberately sticking head out windows. That said greater than 1to1 head movement is a “cheat”  used every flight…
You can’t have it both ways 

I might have used the word before but that part is of my least care in this thread. If you feel the TrackIR technology is a cheat you probably should start a wish thread to allow your server to deny its use.

[Nodak]

52 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But there are other players who do care. I’m sure this will be a setting that can be turned on an off as desired. Except in MP where everyone needs to be kept equal. 

 

Most ignorant statement ever, there has never been equality, and never will, just a high horse some pretending to ride.  Saddle up care'n Karen and ride it.

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

You can look over your shoulder IRL

And no-one ever said otherwise so we can safely conclude that you have no intelligent, cogent, informed, or even remotely relevant argument since you had to resort to these kinds of laughably pathetic strawmen.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Playing in VR is a choice. If you feel it puts you at a disadvantage and that’s important enough for you, then don’t use VR.

Works both ways. Not playing in VR is a choice. If you feel it puts you at a disadvantage, and that's important for you, use VR. See how that works?

Oh, and if handicapping the other players isn’t a reasonable solution, why are you arguing in favour of exactly that — and far more literally?

 

46 minutes ago, draconus said:

Look, the limit is there since the beginning of DCS - it's just not there yet in VR part.

The limit isn't there in VR for a very good reason: because it breaks the first rule of VR design. Meanwhile, the lack of limits for other view control schemes is a vastly bigger problem since they are vastly more common. So why is this complete non-issue so important to fix break?

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

There should be an option for this in DCS and to have it as a server setting. 

We have been through this. That's not how DCS works.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Except in MP where everyone needs to be kept equal. 

LMAO. No. That can never happen. And if you're using that as your impossible goal. you do understand that this will mean all the advantages of TrackIR must forcibly be banned from multiplayer as well, right? I'm going to venture to guess that you don't actually want that since those are your advantages that you rely on…

You've got one thing right though, for once: this cannot be easily solved. VR-breaking limits on head movement is an easy (but inherently incorrect) solution, so let's just get that one off the table since it's causes far more problems for far more people than it could ever hope to solve.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

28 minutes ago, Nodak said:

Most ignorant statement ever, there has never been equality,

Generally speaking mp servers govern the settings which affect gameplay. The use of external views, labels etc. This cockpit view limit would fall in that category. This has always been the case in any multiplayer game I can think of, everyone wants to play by the same rules. 

[Baldrick33]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

It is so glaring violation of world physics that it hurts eyes and screams for a fix or an option at least.

Without some physical limit on our head movement it is always going to be immersion breaking.

1/ I stick my through the virtual glass and get a whooshing sound as I move outside the cockpit.

2/ The tracking suddenly switches from 6dof to 3dof and the world moves with me.

From a VR immersion perspective both aren't nice. The latter is worse as it feels like my VR has lost tracking and for some this can be quite an uncomfortable experience.

Either way from an immersion perspective I quickly learn the boundaries and don't do it again. Personally I prefer the whooshing alarm than breaking my tracking but that is preference.

Once learnt it seldom if ever happens so I have no real need for a fix, if people genuinely use it to emulate plastic man in multiplayer to cheat then I guess it needs addressing. Perhaps simply allowing a small amount of whooshing space as the first warning for those who don't want the boundary to be tracking breaking followed by a hard limit where positional tracking stops. So people won't be able to cheat more by sticking their head right out but those who accidentally push the boundary can back off without the nausea inducing tracking stop.

 

 

 

[Tippis]

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Generally speaking mp servers govern the settings which affect gameplay.

Neither generally nor specifically speaking, no. That's not how DCS works. We've been through this and it has been explained to you in full.

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The use of external views, labels etc. This cockpit view limit would fall in that category. This has always been the case in any multiplayer ame I can think of, everyone wants to play by the same rules. 

External views and labels are not server settings. A cockpit view limit would conceivably fall into the same category, except it cannot because this would be bad UX design since it's not actually a gameplay setting so much as an accessibility one, and the server can (and should) never have anything to do with those.

And quite clearly from this thread, not everyone wants to play by the same rules seeing as how there are so many here trying to come up with pretty silly excuses for their own failings and trying to use those excuses to nerf the other guy while at the same time refusing to take a close look at their own (far larger) advantages and arguing that those be nerfed instead even though they'd affect far more people and balance things even more sensibly...

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

I might have used the word before but that part is of my least care in this thread. If you feel the TrackIR technology is a cheat you probably should start a wish thread to allow your server to deny its use.

Loose argument, change subject. Well played…

[Tippis]

For the sake of comparison...

Spoiler

...which one lets me spot an attacker or a target more easily? Which one allows more control? Which one requires more effort? Which lets me actually see more in any practical sense?

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Baldrick33 said:

Personally I prefer the whooshing alarm than breaking my tracking but that is preference.

It's ok. I wish it was optional and maybe even with a few types of limits to chose from. It doesn't have to break tracking.

[Magic Zach]

 

15 hours ago, Knock-Knock said:

So because there is a small percentage taking advantage of this, a small percentage feel its destroying their game and putting them at a disandvantage, so the rest have to suffer limits and nausea? Cancel culture much?

 

We should disable all axis inputs, cause there are people playing this game with a keyboards only.
We should lock the fps to 30, limit the draw distance to low, and set forrest level to 0, cause there are some that cant get better performance than this.
And lastly, we should remove axis inputs for view around the cockpit, cause there are people just using buttons and keys to look around.

If you have to stick your bloody head out the canopy to 'win', then you have lost already. I mean come on, how big is this issue really? I think you are just finding excuses for your own losses.

This is so outrageous I actually laughed reading this.
Firstly, it's not a small percentage.  At least half of random VR clips I see uploaded on Discord or Youtube have at least one point where the viewer ghosts through the canopy, either accidentally or deliiberately.  It's not small by any means.  It's actually rather difficult to avoid clipping through the canopy glass, especially in a knife fight when you need to switch to looking at your six over your left, right, left again shoulders.
Second, the issue is equal or even more significant as an immersion-breaking factor.  The point of VR, and the only reason anyone would get into VR, is to feel immersed within the environment.  Accidentally ghosting your face through plexiglass every other time you check six, or guessy-feely where the canopy glass is not a part of that immersion.
The cancel culture comparison is hilarious because if anything it's you naysayers that are doing any kind of canceling

And then the rest of your comment is just nonsensical comparisons that are entirely irrelevant in a floundering attempt to make a strawman argument.
Thanks for the laugh, a wonderful start to the weekend lmao

Edited November 28, 2021 by Magic Zach

[SharpeXB]

Probably more players are cheating with this than will admit to. They feel justified in cheating since they believe they are at a disadvantage in VR to begin with. “It’s harder for me to turn my head so it’s ok if I make up for that by looking through the aircraft”

But it’s a simulator. Real pilots can turn their heads but they can’t put their head through the canopy. It’s not a difficult concept. It’s a bug in the VR implementation that’s gone unfixed for too long.

Edited November 28, 2021 by SharpeXB

[pete_auau]

16 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

That's not the problem,  the problem is when I turn my head to find enemies behind me, my head goes outside. 

ok  never  had  this  issue  with  vr

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Probably more players are cheating with this than will admit to.

[citation needed]

By your own calculations, it must by necessity be an exceedingly small number. So those “more players” would come out to… what? Four?

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

They feel justified in cheating since they believe they are at a disadvantage in VR to begin with. “It’s harder for me to turn my head so it’s ok if I make up for that by looking through the aircraft”

Seems about right, doesn't it? They get their very tiny advantage that affects pretty much no-one; you get yours, which affects a far larger number of people.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

But it’s a simulator. Real pilots can turn their heads but they can’t put their head through the canopy. It’s not a difficult concept. It’s a bug in the VR implementation that’s gone unfixed for too long.

Again, [citation needed].

It's not a bug for much the same reason as being able to look behind you while only turning your head 10° is not a bug: it's inherent to the implementation and is there for a very good reason. There is nothing to “fix” — just something to accept. As for it being a simulator, that applies to all the advantages you enjoy as well that also should be removed, but which I've seen you adamantly defend as being absolutely necessary for… no particular reason.

So why should their inherent feature of the control scheme be “fixed” in a way that causes a vastly bigger problem than it solves, but other must remain the same even though they give you vastly bigger advantages? Is it perhaps because they give you that advantage and not someone else? What was that you said, again — if you feel at a disadvantage when playing against VR players, get VR yourself. You'll quickly notice that the thing you're so deathly worried about doesn't actually provide the advantage you're assuming from your position of ignorance and complete lack of experimentation and experience…

 

1 hour ago, Magic Zach said:

Second, the issue is equal or even more significant as an immersion-breaking factor.  The point of VR, and the only reason anyone would get into VR, is to feel immersed within the environment.  Accidentally ghosting your face through plexiglass every other time you check six, or guessy-feely where the canopy glass is not a part of that immersion.

It's actually pretty darn easy to keep your head inside the cockpit by virtue of how VR (and body mechanics, and just good old gravity) work.

As far as immersion-breaking goes, putting your head through things is something you quickly learn not to be all that bothered by when it happens, and ends up being far less ruinous to the experience than when the entire world suddenly moves for no reason and your sense of proprioception is telling you that your head has effectively detached from your body. That effect is so immersion-breaking, in fact, that it elicits a physical response. If you're lucky, you can train your way out of it, but that is not a certainty.

So if immersion was the most critical factor, cockpit limits would be right out. They'd also be right out from just plain old VR design best practice.

 

That only leaves game balance, which is largely immaterial since we're talking about a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche (and really within yet another niche on top of that), where what minute advantage this brings to VR players is completely drowned out by the larger advantages pancake players have with their view control schemes. And even then, there are proper ways of hobbling the view of that niche⁵ that end up not actually limiting where the head can go to begin with.

 

[draconus]

6 hours ago, Tippis said:

It's actually pretty darn easy to keep your head inside the cockpit by virtue of how VR (and body mechanics, and just good old gravity) work.

As far as immersion-breaking goes, putting your head through things is something you quickly learn not to be all that bothered by when it happens, and ends up being far less ruinous to the experience than when the entire world suddenly moves for no reason and your sense of proprioception is telling you that your head has effectively detached from your body.

It doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to work around the problem. It simply doesn't solve the problem. Aircraft don't fly though builngs and heads shouldn't move through cockpit boundaries. That's just impossible IRL. Period. It's a simulation and there's no place here for such neglect. And it's already implemented for a much more popular 2D mode since forever. Thus it will be applied to VR too.

Your line of defence against an option - which makes it not affecting anyone that does not want it - depends on only one type of limit implementation - while there are others and you even don't know which one ED will choose. And they are much aware of the effects of any of the methods. So it's one thing to express opinion that you don't want something. What you do now is rather malicious behavior because it's something that you'd simply not use and doesn't affect you.

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

It doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to work around the problem. It simply doesn't solve the problem. Aircraft don't fly though builngs and heads shouldn't move through cockpit boundaries. That's just impossible IRL. Period. It's a simulation and there's no place here for such neglect.

 

It is impossible IRL to continue moving your head once it is pressed against a glass cockpit. This is the issue we face as short of building physical constraints we can keep moving our head. Either the world magically shifts with our head or we magically move beyond the glass. Maybe it could fade out as we move outside or becomes lower res. None are great choices in immersion terms but the world suddenly shifting with us is the worst of those choices in my view. It is a tricky one to crack and not the simple analogy to flying through buildings you suggest.

The only true to life simulation is a physical constraint. Period.