fixed Problem with CCIP/CCRP missing targets

[Caldera]

Hey Guys,

After the update the CBU-97 has been missing by going long for me in CCRP mode.  At first I thought that it had just been nerfed a WHOLE lot because I was hitting very few targets with it.

But, I have pretty much confirmed what is going on by numerous test runs.  There is no wind on my test range.

This is the SPI.

 

This is where the bomb center radius hits.

 

Anyone else care to verify?

Thanks in advance,

Caldera

 

I edited this post to show the results using the same SPI but dropping a CBU-105 instead of a CBU-97.  Seems it is going long also, just not by as much.

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Caldera

[Caldera]

So I am up early drinking coffee.  I modified my weapon test range using the new draw tools.

 

Mission Editor

 

The target

 

F10 Before

 

F10 After

These are not exactly engineering tools.  But...

I dropped this CBU-97 from 10k and 285knots.  From my testing, I would say it went in the range of 700-725 feet long.  

I have not tested tossing one as of yet so I have no clue as to what got fixed and what did not.

 

Very difficult to use in combat I would think.    Mostly...

 

I thought this information might be useful to some people until:

• It is fixed
• Determined to be working as intended

 

Caldera

Edited October 21, 2021 by Caldera

[=52d= Skip]

Has been reported and acknowledged in the F-16 forum as well:

 

[Caldera]

CBU-105 with same parameters

Caldera

[Frederf]

What is the DSMS setting for HOF and what height are the weapons actually functioning?

[Caldera]

Skip,

Thanks!  It seems Big Newy likes the F-16 better than the A-10C...

Fred,

The HOF is set at the default value of 1800 AGL for both the CBU-97 and the CBU-105.

How do I test HOF?

Caldera

Edited October 21, 2021 by Caldera

[Phaëthon]

CCIP/CCRP and Toss missing targets by hundreds of feet.

Documented the issue with the following video:

Please let me know if this an issue with the latest patch or if I'm doing something wrong.

[BIGNEWY]

please include your track replay it allows us to test the same circumstances

thanks

[silverdevil]

@Caldera i like to use cbu in a10 and f16. i normally change hof to a lower value like 1200. i have not tried it since new patch. the idea is the lower the hof the closer to target like a shotgun. the closer the more chance of hits. the higher hof means further from target, more drift, but wider area of the canisters. also i do ccip sometimes. puts you plan on the line though.

[Phaëthon]

Unfortunately I didn’t save the track. I did however make a video illustrating what I believe to be a fairly easy thing to recreate: an F16 carrying Mk82’s HD and trying different CCIP/CCRP releases. Although the video only shows one example for each, I did make several attempts and they were always consistently missing by the same margin.

Tomorrow I can do it all over again to provide a track, but I feel you can easily do it yourselves.

[Frederf]

10 hours ago, Caldera said:

Skip,

Thanks!  It seems Big Newy likes the F-16 better than the A-10C...

Fred,

The HOF is set at the default value of 1800 AGL for both the CBU-97 and the CBU-105.

How do I test HOF?

Caldera

 

Verify the actual HOF with lowered time acceleration, the F6 external weapon view, and seeing at what altitude (minus ground elevation) the actual weapon bursts at.

[Bog9y]

11 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

please include your track replay it allows us to test the same circumstances

thanks

I've had the same issue with HD bombs consistently landing long. My release parameters are 500 kts, 10 degr dive and release alt of around 1000-1200 ft (as per real life Z diagrams) and the bombs always land long by around 150-200 ft if in HD config.  I tried this in several modules and the results are the same. I have posted a bug report last week in the WEAPONS BUGS thread. 

[b0bl00i]

Dropping CBU-103 from the Viper, either in VIS or PRE mode (within launch parameters, nicely lined up, no wind) always overfly the target and misses completely. No matter which settings I select. They miss by several hundred feet, not even close to the target.

 

They worked great before the patch. Not sure what has happened. Anyone else having issues with this weapon?

CBU-105 seems to work fine, hitting the target as intended.

 

 

[AlexCaboose]

Do you have them reversed? The 103 didn’t exist in the F-16 before the patch.

[Marklar]

Same here with CBU97 in CCIP and CCRP modes. MK82 bombs seem to work fine.

track attached

f16bombs2.trk

[BIGNEWY]

reported thanks

[Caldera]

Silver,

From my testing, 1800 and 1200 work about the same for spread displacement size and for the destruction effectiveness inside the spread radius.  In my testing, as I went up and down with the HOF, the effectiveness seemed to diminish in both directions.  I quit testing thinking that 1200 or 1800 was about the sweet spot, but maybe after this bug goes away I may revisit that testing.  In general, I leave it at the default value of 1800 (plus it's easier) unless I notice significant amount of wind, I am trying to release from a lower altitude or my flight lead requests it.

F10 View - My target was the middle of the gap between the lines of TIGR vehicles.  The direction of flight was bottom to top aligned with the runway.

F10 View - This is the result of a default mode CCIP release where the dive angle was probably approaching 60-70 percent.  As I recall, I released in the 5000-6000 AGL range.

 

As you can see from a HOF of 1800 feet it does a pretty darn good job of taking out everything in the foot print (about a 200-250 foot radius).  It is my opinion that not too long ago a revision gave this munition a buff as it seemed to go from really really good to stupendously awesome.  The later blasts seem to go on for a long time and seem to spread out more and more as time goes on with really cool looking outliers.  That could all be my imagination.  Still, this is one impressive and effective weapon.

None the less... 

It appears that the recent bug does not effect this almost vertical releasing method a whole lot as it does significantly effect the more in level flight releasing methods.

Caldera

[carlos85]

same issue, but with CBU-97/CCRP and 105 PRE/VIS, always overfly the target. worked before the patch

[ASAP]

Are you having the same results with the CBU-105s? With the WCMD tails they should be more accurate and what I'd recommend for level CCRP deliveries. I always thought of the CBU-97 were more appropriate for diving deliveries since they weren't guided. They just fall ballistically until the canister opens.

[KLUTCH]

i thought this was just me but i spent about 4 hours with unlimited weapons on doing CCIP releases and they were off each time from every angle...

[silverdevil]

@Caldera - if you post your test mission i will have a go at it too. i also fly f16. i would be interested to see results of the two.

[ASAP]

Tried it out and I also had the CBU-97 missed unreasonably long of the target in CCRP. The CBU-105 was a dead on shack though. Same warcraniums as the 97, just with an INS tailkit on the back. Recommend using those for CCRP level deliveries.

I also just for fun tried out 45 degree high-alt dive bombs with the CBU-87 and they were shacks. So it looks like it's just a 97 issue.

[Caldera]

Yeah I would agree the CBU-97 is going a long in all release modes by varying amounts.  The closer to a level release the greater the distance it will overshoot.  I have not tested releases at different altitudes, but my suspicion is that the higher the release the longer the overshoot. 

I have dropped many many virtual CBU-97's and I can assure you that the accuracy of that mode (used to be) is good enough to get the job almost 100% of the time provided that there is not much wind.

From my testing it seemed that the 105 was also going long also, but just by not as much.

Again, just my suspicion is that I think that the error has been introduced not in the fall of the bomb, but it is after the canisters have deployed and the parachuted bomblets are falling.  Probably I am clueless.

 

ED has acknowledged that this is a glitch per BIGNEWY.  For me it  was introduced via an update.  Hopefully it is addressed soon.

• 2.7.7.14727
• CBU-87/97/103/105. FZU-39 fuse will only work when decreasing the CBU's flight altitude. This will allow the use of CBU's with a toss bombing, from a low altitude.
• Might have something to do with it.

Caldera

[Emmy]

On 10/23/2021 at 2:01 PM, ASAP said:

Are you having the same results with the CBU-105s? With the WCMD tails they should be more accurate and what I'd recommend for level CCRP deliveries. I always thought of the CBU-97 were more appropriate for diving deliveries since they weren't guided. They just fall ballistically until the canister opens.

CBU-105s are also exhibiting a tendency to drop long.  I put 50 tanks along the runway at Groom Lake, put a steerpoint right on the lead tank in the ME (at the correct MSL), flew in right along the runway heading and while tanks 2, 3, 4 and 5 went BOOM, tank #1 was untouched.

Came around again on the same in run and targeted tank #50 and while one skeet found him, the bulk of the munitions blew up as just anti-personel munitions behind him.

 

(Posted image was grabbed while I was heading back along the reciprocal heading from my first attack pass)

Edited October 26, 2021 by Emmy

[Caldera]

Hey All,

Update 2.7.7.15038

Some testing I did this morning.  More coffee...

Same parameters:

• 10000 AGL
• 285 knots
• 1800 HOF

I modified my target range, the circles are at 25 feet.

The target is the very center of where the two runways cross.

This is approximately where the CBU-97 opened.

This is the CBU-97 area of damage.

This is approximately where the CBU-105 opened.

This is the CBU-105 area of damage.

 

So I would say that the CBU-97's and the CBU-105's are no longer going long.  They seem to be functioning about how they were before.

 

FWIW... 

This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that the area of destruction is the same size.  However, the amount of destruction with in that area has decreased.

Caldera

 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Caldera