DCS F16 performance

[wilbur81]

1 hour ago, Top Jockey said:

1. Even without the Hornet's pitch rate and high alpha capability, why can't the Viper also pull tight in his first run ?

 

The Viper driver can if he wishes, but he won't get the nose authority that the Hornet driver will because of the Viper's FLCS AoA limitation. The good Hornet driver picks his moment (if necessary) to "cash it all in" in order to get the shot. A good Viper driver, generally speaking, doesn't want to get slow with the "Cash in" against a good high-AoA fighter like the Hornet, Raptor, etc. So, the Viper can definitely fight tight on his first turn, but the Hornet and other fighters like it can have a smaller circle if they cash in... Though their subsequent circles are 'done for' after that unless "God's G" is available and the ground isn't too terribly close.

Edited November 17, 2021 by wilbur81

[Top Jockey]

6 minutes ago, wilbur81 said:

The Viper driver can if he wishes, but he won't get the nose authority that the Hornet driver will because of the Viper's FLCS AoA limitation. The good Hornet driver picks his moment (if necessary) to "cash it all in" in order to get the shot. A good Viper driver, generally speaking, doesn't want to get slow with the "Cash in" against a good high-AoA fighter like the Hornet, Raptor, etc. So, the Viper can definitely fight tight on his first turn, but the Hornet and other fighters like it can have a smaller circle if they cash in... Though their subsequent circles are done for after that unless "God's G" is available and the ground isn't too terribly close.

 

 

Hello,

Sure, I generically know both airframes and flight controls strenghts and weaknesses, the Hornet's high AoA capabilites, and the Viper's restrictions, etc.

 

About the bold, @TobiasA mentioned "a heater fight".

That's why I was thinking, the Viper could try forcing a 2 circle fight right from the merge, also cashing in some speed to try quickly gaining angles, and bring his nose to bear as soon as possible on that first turn...

[hawk4me]

The issue is quite clear there. At that speed the g-onset is way to slow we know this ED has said themselves they working on it so dead horse beat there. However the speed doesn't drop much until you actually hit that 9g mark. As soon as you hit 9g speed starts to go down and as it drops it just slows down faster and faster the longer the turn is held. At 1800 fuel with clean pylons it should never slow down. Granted it will be very rare that you enter a battle with a clean jet and that low of fuel.

I am really starting to wonder since no other jet in DCS is as aggressive in the g-onset and overall speed like the viper is that the table for how drag and things is accounted for after the 7.5g that most jet's pull is perhaps off a bit. This will cause excessive speed loss as the controls deflect it will then translate to more drag. This drag could be one of the causes of the slow down's in the turn rate's as you pull. I am willing to give ED the time to get the g-onset correct which should also affect the nose authority of the plane in general and take it from there. At this point ED says it's right us armchair pilot's say it's not. Not much we can do until we get the final flight model.

[Hummingbird]

11 minutes ago, hawk4me said:

The issue is quite clear there. At that speed the g-onset is way to slow we know this ED has said themselves they working on it so dead horse beat there. However the speed doesn't drop much until you actually hit that 9g mark. As soon as you hit 9g speed starts to go down and as it drops it just slows down faster and faster the longer the turn is held. At 1800 fuel with clean pylons it should never slow down. Granted it will be very rare that you enter a battle with a clean jet and that low of fuel.

I am really starting to wonder since no other jet in DCS is as aggressive in the g-onset and overall speed like the viper is that the table for how drag and things is accounted for after the 7.5g that most jet's pull is perhaps off a bit. This will cause excessive speed loss as the controls deflect it will then translate to more drag. This drag could be one of the causes of the slow down's in the turn rate's as you pull. I am willing to give ED the time to get the g-onset correct which should also affect the nose authority of the plane in general and take it from there. At this point ED says it's right us armchair pilot's say it's not. Not much we can do until we get the final flight model.

 

Keep in mind that in full AB I'm not giving it full stick deflection until I get close to 450 KIAS, whilst at full MIL I can give it full back stick at much higher speeds without fear of reaching Ps=0 and maintaining speed @ 9 G, which is essential as you logically can't test ITR at Ps=0, cause you'll never decelerate.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Hummingbird

[wilbur81]

1 hour ago, Top Jockey said:

 

That's why I was thinking, the Viper could try forcing a 2 circle fight right from the merge, also cashing in some speed to try quickly gaining angles, and bring his nose to bear as soon as possible on that first turn...

indeed, you could.

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, hawk4me said:

The issue is quite clear there. At that speed the g-onset is way to slow we know this ED has said themselves they working on it so dead horse beat there

I agree, we will close for now, we can check it out again after more changes.

Actually after discussing further we will leave it open for new discussions if people feel there are other issues beyond what we have already acknowledged. 

Thanks

[Aquorys]

Just tried a couple things in singleplayer, clean jet (pylons removed), fuel around 6000 - 2000, I didn't get more than 26 degrees AoA. I hit a turn rate of 19 1/2 around 395 knots, but could not sustain the turn at that speed. I could sustain 7.5 G at about 550 knots doing 16 1/2 degrees. I briefly got 21 degrees turn rate going vertically over the top at about 360 knots and somewhat over 7 G.

This was all done at ~11k ft ASL (except for the vertical turns of course).

Singleplayer vs. a Veteran AI F/A-18C Lot 20 I could consistently outmaneuver a clean Hornet with 80% Fuel with a full A/A loadout (four AMRAAMs, 2 Sidewinders) on the F-16 and also 80% fuel. However, the AI's flying, especially energy management, probably isn't the best (people stated in this forum that it's worse in the Ace level, which is why I used the Veteran level on the AI Hornet).

I did get the first shot vs. a Hornet armed with 9X on the wingtips, but it's very close (again, full A/A loadout on the F-16).

What I've noticed is that if you're already slow (~ 250 knots) you need to unload a lot to regain speed, even if you're pointed toward the ground and in full afterburner.

[b0bl00i]

Probably very much work in progress. Seems like they are doing this carefully. I also think they are working on tuning the gloc logic, or at least I hope so. 

[Slowdive]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:14 PM, SparxOne said:

To be honest with you, whether or not Mover and Gonky got into this, i feel like most of the time, this "arm wrestling for correctness" whether one or the other plane flies correctly between the 16 and the 18 is mostly about people not accepting that their favorite planes gets beaten by the other, therefore simply a matter of ego that people blame on the FM of either plane.

Of coarse people would throw rocks at me for saying this, but it's simply the feeling i get over time reading these never ending discussions.

I don't think most people care about if one aircraft can beat another, because any aircraft can beat any other aircraft given pilot skill and other circumstances. Rather, I think what people have concerns about is HOW the aircraft are winning. If you flew a WW2 sim and the BF-109 out turned a Spitfire there would be some raised eyebrows. I believe that's similar to what's happening here. Perhaps this will not be the case when ED does their final FM pass, so I remain optimistic.

On 11/15/2021 at 11:41 PM, BIGNEWY said:

because we have tested many times, the figures are correct, we want to see tracks showing it is wrong, and your methods for testing. 

Can you address something I've seen popup from time to time, the suggestion that you are sandbagging the performance on various jets for security reasons?

[NineLine]

9 minutes ago, Slowdive said:

 

Can you address something I've seen popup from time to time, the suggestion that you are sandbagging the performance on various jets for security reasons?

No that is not the case. 

[Slowdive]

2 minutes ago, NineLine said:

No that is not the case. 

Awesome. Thanks for the clarity.

[Theodore42]

17 hours ago, Slowdive said:

Can you address something I've seen popup from time to time, the suggestion that you are sandbagging the performance on various jets for security reasons?

Everything the pilots tell ED is going to be buffered by security when necessary and nobody is going to inform ED that a thing is being concealed. That said, the performance characteristics are pretty public (airshows) and the shape of the airframe can be easily replicated and simulated (as ED does). Far more likely we are missing out on the exact performance characteristics of things like the Hornet's paddle switch, of which the general abilities are probably known but the exact abilities (FLCS logic) may not be easily inferred and therefore classified as to prevent any kind of specific training against it. But I would speculate ED can GENERALLY simulate an equivalent capability, just not represent its particular quirks. I would speculate.

As far as the F-16 FM, if you're just trying to win a rate fight the F-16 isn't going to be any better now than before because nothing about the F-16's FM changed the STR. Many other areas of the F-16 are improved: low G sustained turns and Hi-G sustained turns. And there was a stealth update in 2.7 that MASSIVLY improved pitch control at low speeds that really improved over the top (Immelmann) performance. None of these buffs are utilized with an STR strategy.

Doing BFM vs a Hornet requires gaining energy on him while the Hornet is going to try to use geometry and low speed/hi-G turns to get angles on your tail. All of the places the F-16 was buffed lend to this strategy. Win in the vertical and mitigate the Hornet's low speed angle gains. STR has nothing to do with it.

I get the feeling some people think the G-onset is going to make the Viper more like the Hornet. IT'S NOT. The AoA is still going to be limited for the Viper and the Hornet is still going to be able to whip his nose around on you and there is still going to be nothing you can do about it. The Viper WILL be able to fly more like the VIPER with this change. Every time you snap from low Gs to high Gs, all snap turns, all jinking... these are the things that will be buffed. It will be glorious.

I agree with the sentiment that even a few degrees a second off isn't going to impact a win. Pretty much every maneuver I win or lose results in more than 15 degrees of Angle.

[Aquorys]

2 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

Everything the pilots tell ED is going to be buffered by security when necessary and nobody is going to inform ED that a thing is being concealed. That said, the performance characteristics are pretty public (airshows) and the shape of the airframe can be easily replicated and simulated (as ED does). Far more likely we are missing out on the exact performance characteristics of things like the Hornet's paddle switch, of which the general abilities are probably known but the exact abilities (FLCS logic) may not be easily inferred and therefore classified as to prevent any kind of specific training against it.

The flight characteristics are most probably not that much affected by that. What's really massively affected by secrecy is anything concerning radar and other sensors, countermeasures (especially ECM) and the capabilities of air-to-air missiles and some air-to-ground missiles like the HARM and Harpoon/Kormoran/Exocet etc.

[Mirage2425]

On 11/16/2021 at 10:30 AM, wilbur81 said:

Mike Torrealday is one of ED's SME's for the Viper. No disrespect to Mover's Viper experience, but "T-Day" has over 4000 hrs in the Viper. ED knows what they're doing with the Viper, the Hornet, and the other airframes.

 

I just got a chance to watch the whole video with Mover and Gonky (I was relying on the opinion of people I trust) and it's not just Mover's observations.  Gonky was the one that brought it up and said that if Mover was in a real Viper it wouldn't be going this way.  He also told Mover that now he knows how the Hornet guys feel when going up against a Viper.  That combined with Mover saying he would not be at 3G's at 200kts and should be accelerating at 9G's is pretty conclusive to me.  I also respect Mike Torrealday's experience in the Viper and his contribution to the authenticity of the DCS Viper.  I'm confident they will not let this go unaddressed.  I'll be patient and wait for what is to come .

[Mars Exulte]

8 hours ago, Mirage2425 said:

I'm confident they will not let this go unaddressed.

  It's not unaddressed now. 

[Mirage2425]

20 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

  It's not unaddressed now. 

Some feel as you do and others, such as myself, do not.  I don't think the Viper should be the worst jet in DCS at BFM. The Viper should out rate a Hornet.  The Hornet has great nose authority.  They both fight different fights.  The Hornet shouldn't be able to out rate a Viper. That's my opinion, backed up by testing from other members of the community.  Everyone can have their own opinion.  Let's see how ED handles it.

[NineLine]

26 minutes ago, Mirage2425 said:

Let's see how ED handles it.

That's the best bet, we are at the point of making generalized statements now, lets just see how the team addresses the remaining items, and trust we have good SME's helping us out.

[Versor]

Do you have some SME's for Hornet, Mirage, Tomcat ?

I'm afraid that Viper is close to reality more than other jets and here is the difference that makes VIper better not to enter BFM now.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Versor

[sylkhan]

8 hours ago, Versor said:

Do you have some SME's for Hornet, Mirage, Tomcat ?

I'm afraid that Viper is close to reality more than other jets and here is the difference that makes VIper better not to enter BFM now.

 

+1

Viper seems correct, but hornet and tomcat are really too OP.
Mirage or other jets can't compete in PvP dogfights  vs Hornet  and tomcat.
That's not realistic at all.
it's not even fun to do PvP dogfights vs Hornet.

Edited November 22, 2021 by sylkhan

[NineLine]

8 hours ago, Versor said:

Do you have some SME's for Hornet, Mirage, Tomcat ?

I'm afraid that Viper is close to reality more than other jets and here is the difference that makes VIper better not to enter BFM now.

 

We have an SME for the Hornet, but we don't have as detailed documentation for the FM as the Viper. But the Hornet FM is still a WIP.

The Mirage and Tomcat are 3rd Party modules, and you will need to ask them. 

[Snappy]

17 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

+1

Viper seems correct, but hornet and tomcat are really too OP.
Mirage or other jets can't compete in PvP dogfights  vs Hornet  and tomcat.
That's not realistic at all.
it's not even fun to do PvP dogfights vs Hornet.

 

The Tomcat thing likely boils down to people flying it on Dogfight servers often abuse the full flaps position, which gives it a significant boost in turnrate. It’s not a realistic procedure and the full flaps position is not meant for Dogfighting as it overstresses them, but it’s just like with the paddle switch on the the Hornet. Even in the simulation game niche many people will use any exploit to increase their stats…not much you can do about it..

Without the full flaps the Tomcat seems to match it’s charts very well as far as I know.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Snappy

[Versor]

12 minutes ago, NineLine said:

We have an SME for the Hornet, but we don't have as detailed documentation for the FM as the Viper. But the Hornet FM is still a WIP.

The Mirage and Tomcat are 3rd Party modules, and you will need to ask them. 

Thx for answer. I hope in near future FM will be ready for both plane.

[Deano87]

52 minutes ago, Snappy said:

The Tomcat thing likely boils down to people flying it on Dogfight servers often abuse the full flaps position, which gives it a significant boost in turnrate. It’s not a realistic procedure and the full flaps position is not meant for Dogfighting as it overstresses them, but it’s just like with the paddle switch on the the Hornet. Even in the simulation game niche many people will use any exploit to increase their stats…not much you can do about it..

Without the full flaps the Tomcat seems to match it’s charts very well as far as I know.

 

The Flap abuse in the Tomcat has been helped in recent patches by making them much easier to over-stress I believe?

[Snappy]

36 minutes ago, Deano87 said:

The Flap abuse in the Tomcat has been helped in recent patches by making them much easier to over-stress I believe?

This is getting OT,but.  no not really, in my personal opinion .They will jam now if you overstress them yes, but they always seem to jam symmetrically and in full out position, so the turnrate is still boosted. They won’t bend or rip off it seems. The only problem arises if you want to go faster again, they produce lots of drag , reducing acceleration and top speed .But in the speed range most gun fights take place in , it’s not much of a factor. Like I said , go on any of the popular bfm servers and watch a few Tomcat or Hornet fight. Paddle switch  and Flaps exploits are rampant.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Snappy

[Spurts]

Top speed of a Tomcat with Jammed flaps is ~450kts and it's like riding a wheelbarrow down a mountainside.  If you are in a Viper, and flying it properly, and some yahoo thinks he's going to get you by dropping his flaps turn the whole fight into a vertical yo-yo.  He will be unable to climb or have a stable gun solution.