So many weird map choices while avoiding the most obvious choice.

[Vakarian]

Just because those planes flew there historically, doesn't mean 100% of DCS community flies exclusively historical missions. As soon as you deviate even 1% from the 100% percent realism, all these arguments fall down.

DCS is a sandbox, not historical conflict recreation tool.

 

I mean, don't get me wrong. I'll buy any map that comes to DCS as that gives me more options/variety to make missions, but making your one and only argument "planes flew there in X conflict, that's why we need Y map" is childlish at best.

[Beirut]

I'm a flightsimmer.

 

Give me a map of Neptune and a Sopwith camel. I'll figure out what to do with it. 

[truebrit]

On 5/5/2022 at 9:29 AM, Stratos said:

From top of my head, and please correct me If I'm wrong, in the proposed map the following flyable (or soon to be) DCS planes and helos have fought:

- MiG-21: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- MiG-23: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- Su-25: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- Mirage F1: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. (This one also fought with some coallition countries during ODS) Iraq, Qatar, France, Kuwait

- Mi-24: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- Mi-8: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- F-5E: Iran-Iraq War. Iran, RSAF

- F-4E: Iran-Iraq War. Iran 

- F-14A and B:  Iran-Iraq War, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. (again, used in Iran during first Gulf War and for the USN during Desert Shield and ODS). Iran, USN

- F-15C: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USAF, RSAF

- F-16C: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USAF

- F/A-18C: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USAF, Australia

- F-15E: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USA

- Uh-1H Huey: Iran-Iraq War, Desert Shield, Desert Storm. Iran, US Army

- S-342 Gazelle: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. (This one also fought with some coallition countries during ODS). Iraq, British Army, France

- Ah-64 Apache: Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. US Army

- Oh-58 Kiowa: Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. US Army

- Av-8B Night Attack: Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USMC

- Mirage 2000: Desert Shield, Desert Storm. France

 

And the excellent mods of:

- A-4 Skyhawk: Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Kuwait

- Uh-60L: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. US Army

 

The also flyable L-39 was used by Iraq, but IIRC only as a trainer, I've read some reports saying the Iraqis used them during Iran-Iraq war, but cannot 100% confirm it.

 

In some cases the exact MARK used during those wars and our flyable is not correct, but I think the list is pretty impressive, in fact seeing the list it makes no sense that we still don't have this map. My two cents.

 

 

 

Great work there, and exactly my point. We have an aircraft set for the Iraq map, and also the ai assets. We also the aircraft from Flaming Cliffs A-10a, Mig29.

[Mausar]

Balkan, you got mountains, sea, hills it's very varied terrain and almost all modern planes were involved.

[truebrit]

3 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

Just because those planes flew there historically, doesn't mean 100% of DCS community flies exclusively historical missions. As soon as you deviate even 1% from the 100% percent realism, all these arguments fall down.

DCS is a sandbox, not historical conflict recreation tool.

 

I mean, don't get me wrong. I'll buy any map that comes to DCS as that gives me more options/variety to make missions, but making your one and only argument "planes flew there in X conflict, that's why we need Y map" is childlish at best.

Let's stay civil please.

[Beirut]

1 minute ago, truebrit said:

Let's stay civil please.

 

In a military sim? 

 

Ta-da-dum!  

[Stratos]

20 minutes ago, truebrit said:

Great work there, and exactly my point. We have an aircraft set for the Iraq map, and also the ai assets. We also the aircraft from Flaming Cliffs A-10a, Mig29.

Added them.

[Stratos]

Added the A-7 as well, it flew for the USN and is a official modeule WIP.

[dawgie79]

On 5/6/2022 at 12:35 PM, truebrit said:

Let's stay civil please.

He's right you know.

 I for one could care less for another  sandbox. We have Syria, Persian Gulf and NTTR. All of them mostly covered with sand (with the exception maybe of Syria, it has more variation).

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by dawgie79

[cfrag]

On 5/3/2022 at 2:31 AM, truebrit said:

I would suggest ED and Razbam forget Marianas and the Falklands and join forces to make the Iraq map

Well, I presume that what's obvious for one player isn't at all for another. I personally don't mind that much, as long as we get some varied maps; they add color/flavor to my flying, and I am not into historically accurate flying or matching of airframes - I fly DCS for fun. And to me the "obvious" choice would be a Balkans map. I also feel that we have enough "dust" maps, and I personally prefer Ugra's work on Syria to the somewhat lacking (in terms of variety) NTTR and SOH offerings, so I'd much more welcome more variety like Marianas and Falklands in preference over yet more sand (and I do have to note that the expanded eastern zone (Iraq) for Syria is decidedly less interesting than the western half of the map: Beirut, Cyprus, Adana, Haifa are Beqaa Valley are just great (to me). Also to consider - ED needed another free map under their belt, and Marianas is a fantastic addition to the free set to hook more unwary players into their ecosystem. A paid Iraq is unlikely to have achieved that.

On 5/3/2022 at 2:31 AM, truebrit said:

Why the Falklands map?

My first guess - because Razbam's management expect (for likely well-researched reasons) that a SA map will make them more money than any other choice. They are in the business to make money, and that's what they focus on. We are here to have fun, and Razbam's take on our likes/dislikes is that SA is where most of us want to go. We'll see. I'll surely get it. It's not as if I've ever been to SA, but neither have I ever been to Batumi nor Nevada nor Cherbourg, so that's not a factor for me either. I guess I just like variety.

Edited May 6, 2022 by cfrag

[upyr1]

6 hours ago, truebrit said:

I agree with what you say there, but it also proves my points. These maps will be great in 5-6 years time. Right now Iraq make much more sense.

The only way I could go for an Iraq map would be if it were big enough to connect the Persian gulf and Syria Maps. However I'd like something that's not desert first. I don't think the SA map will be out for a while and wish that Razbam would focus more on their RN assets . 

Edited May 6, 2022 by upyr1

[Stratos]

Added the Bo105 as well. Used by Iraq

 

[Beirut]

On 5/6/2022 at 12:58 PM, upyr1 said:

The only way I could go for an Iraq map would be if it were big enough to connect the Persian gulf and Syria Maps. However I'd like something that's not desert first. I don't think the SA map will be out for a while and wish that Razbam would focus more on their RN assets . 

 

 

The map is showing up in Wags' videos, I think it is close. June 14 is the end of the war, maybe that's what they're aiming at.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

 

The map is showing up in Wags' videos, I think it is close. June 14 is the end of the war, maybe that's what they're aiming at.

That would be awesome if it is ready then. 

[Nevyn]

You make some good points OP.

[Southernbear]

Number 1: Heatblur is trying to have Early Access for the F-4 start by the end of this year so it won't take as long as most are saying here for Marianas to be more complete.

Secondly, the area of land shown in the pictures posted here is huge, a good 2-3 times the size of anything previously done for DCS. This means in reality Iraq would be 2 separate possible maps since it would be almost impossible to make a map large enough to fully show both theatres.

The maps featured bellow are the current Syria and Persian Gulf maps as a size example

Next here is the land area of 450,000 square kilometres as that is the largest map (Syria) we currently have.

We run into a few issues, the first being that most of the fighting happened in the south where NATO flanked the Iraqi forces in Kuwait with the help of GPS where as in the Iran-Iraq war the bulk of the fighting was along the Iran-Iraq boarder and the opposite side of the Country to Desert storm. 

The best placement then for the map for a desert storm focused version would be something like this: 

But then you have the issue of 1, most of NATO's navy is stationed much deeper in the Persian Gulf and you are cutting out half the possible front for anyone interested in replicating the Iran-Iraq war. 

It could be done but I feel they've deliberately left Iraq alone for more complete theatres of warfare as they do, sometime in the future have the idea to possibly make a global map which would fix much of these issues.

 

And before you ask, the reason the Falklands map is going to be so huge is 1, its mostly water making it less taxing to render and 2, its just completely needed due to the nature of positioning between the Falklands Islands and Argentina. 

[truebrit]

11 hours ago, Southernbear said:

Number 1: Heatblur is trying to have Early Access for the F-4 start by the end of this year so it won't take as long as most are saying here for Marianas to be more complete.

Secondly, the area of land shown in the pictures posted here is huge, a good 2-3 times the size of anything previously done for DCS. This means in reality Iraq would be 2 separate possible maps since it would be almost impossible to make a map large enough to fully show both theatres.

The maps featured bellow are the current Syria and Persian Gulf maps as a size example

Next here is the land area of 450,000 square kilometres as that is the largest map (Syria) we currently have.

We run into a few issues, the first being that most of the fighting happened in the south where NATO flanked the Iraqi forces in Kuwait with the help of GPS where as in the Iran-Iraq war the bulk of the fighting was along the Iran-Iraq boarder and the opposite side of the Country to Desert storm. 

The best placement then for the map for a desert storm focused version would be something like this: 

But then you have the issue of 1, most of NATO's navy is stationed much deeper in the Persian Gulf and you are cutting out half the possible front for anyone interested in replicating the Iran-Iraq war. 

It could be done but I feel they've deliberately left Iraq alone for more complete theatres of warfare as they do, sometime in the future have the idea to possibly make a global map which would fix much of these issues.

 

And before you ask, the reason the Falklands map is going to be so huge is 1, its mostly water making it less taxing to render and 2, its just completely needed due to the nature of positioning between the Falklands Islands and Argentina. 

Lots of good info there, thanks. Maybe with the Vulkan API we will be able to have larger maps like Iraq complete? Let's hope.

[Dangerzone]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:31 PM, Vakarian said:

I mean, don't get me wrong. I'll buy any map that comes to DCS as that gives me more options/variety to make missions.

Emphasis mine - but that's the hammer hitting the nail right there. The maps they chose to go with so far give more options/variety.

And FWIW - I think it works in the best interest of those wanting an Iraq map as well. If Iraq was to be developed instead of Syria/Mariana's now - then you wouldn't have everything that you want in it - the map would be too small - you'd be limited. 

So it's far better to have Syria and Mariana's now - which gives different varieties, and fits within the current engine's capabilities - and then when/if future development (Vulkcan maybe) allow for much larger maps - introduce Iraq then. 

[upyr1]

9 hours ago, truebrit said:

Lots of good info there, thanks. Maybe with the Vulkan API we will be able to have larger maps like Iraq complete? Let's hope.

Right now Iraq would have to be several maps that load as needed. I would love to have a huge mid east map. Right now I would rather have some green maps. Especially a jungle and improvements to dcs core

[rayrayblues]

@truebrit

Just my 2 cents.............

ED has been working hard on improving WWll assets eg: the DM & FM improvements just last year, new WWll assets,

the recent introduction of the Mosquito and just last month they announced the WWll version of Marianas will be coming soon.

I find it disconcerting to fly a WWll mission over Guam, Tinian or Saipan without running into a golf course,    a real immersion killer.

They are also working on more WWll ships, planes and ground assets for US and IJN forces. They have also promised us an F4U for years.

I agree that at this time, we have enough desert maps with Syria, PG and NTTR. I live in Phoenix Arizona and I see enough desert every day.

So far, we only have one tropical map and there is a large community support for Vietnam, Laos, The Philippines and South Pacific.

While I respect your desire for re-creating actual combat scenarios, I also agree with others that most DCS users don't care about that.

They just want to fly and use their imaginations to create their own battles. That's what the mission editor is for.

If ED chooses to add an Iraq map in the future, that will be fine, as long as they complete the WWll stuff and tropical locations

that they have been promising us for years.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by rayrayblues
additional thoughts

[Rudel_chw]

5 hours ago, rayrayblues said:

They have also promised us an F4U for years.

 

Just a small clarification, the Corsair is not being made by ED, but by Magnitude 3

[rayrayblues]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Just a small clarification, the Corsair is not being made by ED, but by Magnitude 3

I knew that, but don't they have to at least pay Mag 3 for it?

For all we know the mod may be finished, but ED may not have the budget for it yet.

[MAXsenna]

I knew that, but don't they have to at least pay Mag 3 for it?
For all we know the mod may be finished, but ED may not have the budget for it yet.

Don't think it works that way. 
Pretty sure ED doesn't pay one single cent, (why would they), but charge 30% or so, of the sales. But who knows. 

[HotTom]

On 5/3/2022 at 11:48 AM, Rudel_chw said:

 

Just a little detail, those two didn't took place at Iraq.

Indeed. We can't do the Suez Crisis or the Six-Day War because we don't have Egypt or the Sinai or the Suez Canal on our maps (or even southern Israel). It would be nice if the map "deciders" read a history book now and then). We can do the Golan Heights but not the Sinai. Go figure.

 

[Rudel_chw]

17 minutes ago, HotTom said:

We can't do the Suez Crisis or the Six-Day War because we don't have Egypt or the Sinai or the Suez Canal on our maps (or even southern Israel).

 

In my view, DCS is a tactical game ... it really doesn't matter exactly where your dogfight is taking place, or on what exact road is moving the convoy that I'm going to attack. I purchase and enjoy maps mostly to add better ambiance and variety to my missions, not to re-create a specific battle.