Extremely slow development

[Shrike88]

I thought that given over the years the last several models especially the F-16 I would have learned the tempo, however 

 

is it just me or has the Apache development been extremely slow?  Maybe every couple months a change or fix but added features are minimal. Content also very lacking.  A little curious also given the length of time since it has been released compared to other modules and where they were with released and added development given the same timeframe. 
 

 

 

[speed-of-heat]

it's just you 

compared to other modules its about the pace I have come to expect 

[NineLine]

Considering how complex a module this is, these recent updates seem pretty good to me.

DCS: AH-64D by Eagle Dynamics
Added TADS IAT MP sync.
Add Israeli AH-64D livery created by ZedTank.
Add patches for Pilots.
Fixed: IHADSS image scale incorrect.
Fixed: CPG DMS Autopage button state is de-synced in multicrew.
Fixed: Selecting GUN on cyclic WAS was reverting MANRNG > value to default value.
Fixed: George spaming "Lost Target" messages.
Fixed: The Free Air Temperature gauge should not have backlighting.
Fixed: The standby Magnetic Compass lighting should be controlled by STBY INST knob.
Fixed: HMD Grayscale page coop synchronisation.
Fixed: BACK SCATTER message should have a space.
Instant Action Missions Update.

DCS: AH-64D by Eagle Dynamics
Added LODs 3/4/5 for improved performance.
Added cycled : NO WPN > MSL > RKT > GUN > NO WPN.
Fixed: NVG for CPG not working in multicrew.
Fixed: Multicrew - Navigation info on pilot's IHADSS not visible when CPG selects a point which is not part of the route.
Fixed: George Lists targets many miles away.
Fixed: COOP rockets with George when the gun is empty.
Fixed: Laser codes not synced between CPG and pilot.
Fixed: CPG turns off Rad alt, and is unable to turn back on.
Fixed: Special Options. Combox width too short.
Fixed: AI (as CPG) checks PNVS.
Fixed: George CPG interaction should not be affected by Pilot's ACQ source selection.
Fixed: George will not fire in LOAL.
Fixed: TSD Point icon corrections.
Fixed: Spawns in with left rudder input.
Fixed: Missing RKT NORM and RKT G-S messages.
Fixed: Control Measures missing text when deselected.
Fixed: AI CPG reports no detected targets, but provides a target list.
Fixed: Chaff/Flare inventories should not be editable in Rearm/Refuel menu.
Fixed: Flight Path Vector should not be displayed if on ground or less than 5 knots ground speed.
Fixed: Acceleration Cue should not change format based on vertical velocity.
Fixed: Torque flashing errors when in single engine format.
Fixed: New single RAZBAM FARP AH-64D needs to be moved forward to prevent tail break.
Fixed: OUTFRONT Boresight option still present on WPN-BORESIGHT page.
Fixed: Fly-To symbol should only be displayed if the aircraft is airborne.
Fixed: Time To Go format switch in IHADSS flight symbology.
Fixed: Typo in lesson 6 heading (RU).
Fixed: SCUD Busters - Wrong co-ords.
Total controls MPD profiles added.
Fixed: FUEL Advisory should not show in EUFD if the fuel page is open.
Fixed: AH-64D paint kit - APU Exhaust warning on wrong side.
Fixed: FMC channels not synced on CPG join - MP.
Fixed: Radar Altitude Hold uses barometric altitude as reference.
Fixed: Altitude Hold will oscillate when out of ground effect.
Fixed: CPG TRN Threat ring appearing on Pilot TSD when it should not.
Fixed: Threat ring shown in centre of TSD when TG point is set as ACQ but hidden by COORD SHOW options.
Fixed: VID page briefly showing the main format when VSEL (T6) format is enabled and the VID button is pressed.
Fixed: George should select "NO WPN" after depleting another.
Fixed: CPG AI George systems desync on seat switch cold start.
Fixed: Keyboard Unit Brightness Knob stops working correctly when assigned to Axis.
Added Multi-Target Tracker ( so far without synchronization for multi-crew W.I.P ). Instruction video.
Added Performance Page (W.I.P). Instruction video.
Fixed: Incorrect SAS Tones and Hold behavior.
Added Pilot and CP/G first person view models with animations.
Added new voice messages for George as Pilot and CP/G.
Added main gears collapse into the fuselage after hard landing.
Added new livery Korea Air Force, Egypt Air Force and Israeli AH-64D livery created by ZedTank.
livery update: Grim Reapers 4-2 ARB Devils 1-1 ARB.
Fixed: Desync ACQ TRN after CP/G`s detach and attach again.
Fixed; ALT-H activation conditions are not met.
Fixed: FMC channels not synced on CP/G join - MP.
Fixed: Can not create waypoints after CP/G exits.
Fixed: Unable to store targets in multiplayer.
Fixed: Range source switching back to laser range when Sight changed from HMD to TADS.
Fixed: Exported TEDAC creates a double image on the TEDAC in the cockpit.
Fixed: Jettison not synced between cockpits.
Fixed: Point deletion desync.
Fixed: Switching to the CP/G seat after setting attitude hold in pilot seat issue.
Fixed: Some ground units did not heat up in FLIR mode.
German Quickstart manual added.

DCS: AH-64D by Eagle Dynamics
Added Multi-Target Tracker ( so far without synchronization for multi-crew W.I.P ). Instruction video.
Added Performance Page (W.I.P). Instruction video.
Fixed: Incorrect SAS Tones and Hold behavior.
Added Pilot and CP/G first person view models with animations.
Added new voice messages for George as Pilot and CP/G.
Added main gears collapse into the fuselage after hard landing.
Added new livery Korea Air Force, Egypt Air Force and Israeli AH-64D livery created by ZedTank.
livery update: Grim Reapers 4-2 ARB Devils 1-1 ARB.
Fixed: Desync ACQ TRN after CP/G`s detach and attach again.
Fixed; ALT-H activation conditions are not met.
Fixed: FMC channels not synced on CP/G join - MP.
Fixed: Can not create waypoints after CP/G exits.
Fixed: Unable to store targets in multiplayer.
Fixed: Range source switching back to laser range when Sight changed from HMD to TADS.
Fixed: Exported TEDAC creates a double image on the TEDAC in the cockpit.
Fixed: Jettison not synced between cockpits.
Fixed: Point deletion desync.
Fixed: Switching to the CP/G seat after setting attitude hold in pilot seat issue.
Fixed: Some ground units did not heat up in FLIR mode.
Coming after this update: In addition to bug fixes, other ongoing work on the AH-64D includes improvements to the external model, AGM-114L, COMM and DATALINK for LB Net support, flight model and SCAS improvements, improved IR signature, and “Robbie” fuel tank option.

DCS: AH-64D by Eagle Dynamics
Total controls MPD profiles added
Fixed: FUEL Advisory should not show in EUFD if fuel page is open
Fixed: AH-64D paint kit - APU Exhaust warning on wrong side
Fixed: FMC channels not synced on CPG join - MP
Fixed: Radar Altitude Hold uses barometric altitude as reference
Fixed: Altitude Hold will oscillate when out of ground effect.
Fixed: CPG TRN Threat ring appearing on Pilot TSD when it should not
Fixed: Threat ring shown in centre of TSD when TG point is set as ACQ but hidden by COORD SHOW options
Fixed: VID page is briefly showing main format when VSEL (T6) format is enabled and VID button is pressed
Fixed: George should select "NO WPN" after depleting another
Fixed: CPG AI George systems desync on seat switch cold start
Fixed: Keyboard Unit Brightness Knob stop working correctly when assigned to Axis

[VDV]

Yes, and 80-90% of added things are just "fixed" something broken. 

[Yurgon]

26 minutes ago, Shrike88 said:

is it just me or has the Apache development been extremely slow?

That's very subjective of course. Personally, I find it to be expected. The recent addition of Image Auto Track was very welcome. Also, a lot of small issues like the Hellfires switching to RF for no apparent reason have been fixed.

I'm not too happy with the flight control changes, but on the upside, there was a pretty massive change to the chopper's flight controls and how automation now almost removes the need to kick the pedals.

All things considered, I'm quite happy with the progress. Besides the FCR, the thing I'm really looking forward to is the Apache net feature. I have no idea how that works and if it's more like the Ka-50 DL or more like SADL (just isolated to Apaches), but I'll take whatever I can get as long as it enhances SA inside of a flight.

[poochies]

I agree 100 percent on the IDM data link  module really need it bad especially with a flight of 6 apaches knowing where everyones at is crucial , and fix the IAT so it locks up images at night using flir otherwise the module is shaping up great imo 

[inexus]

Agree it is very slow. 

Even with that long list of changes like 90%+ are fixes and some of the few 'added' are things like liveries, patches on pilots, etc.

[corbu1]

I‘m mostly looking forward to FCR, AGM114L and also datalink. These will strongly enhance AH-64‘s capabilities…..

I can understand that some want these things soon, me too. But things take time to get done. That‘s it for DCS and that‘s it for Life, we‘ll have to accept and deal with it…….and finally when it‘s done we will be even more happier with our Apache beast.

[Shrike88]

11 hours ago, VDV said:

Yes, and 80-90% of added things are just "fixed" something broken. 

Very true. Only see an added not related to a livery. Oh well.  Hopefully FCR soon

[Wolf8312]

6 hours ago, Shrike88 said:

Very true. Only see an added not related to a livery. Oh well.  Hopefully FCR soon

I'd agree with that logic if it was a real helicopter that had been badly and inexplicably botched! But with a computer simulation I'd say that 'fixes' are basically the same thing as improvements ironing out unintended bugs.

But whether the progress of the appache module is too slow I have no idea really. I guess it depends if the devs are working on this module full time, or having got it into a playable state, have now been allocated to other newer development projects, that will bring in more cash, with the appache relegated to a part time project!

I guess that could be answered if one were to compare the speed of development from when the Appache itself was a newer development project, to its development speed now!

[dedlike.]

the wait for the IAT was already painfully long, and tbh, im underwhelmed aswell, i was realy hoping that george would finnaly be able to use some from os stabilisation.. well.. sadly not.

i do have to agree that things are going extreamly slow , its been realy close to a year now and while it has gotten better, i would say the greatest thing that has been added so far was the IFF for George and Petrovic haha, dont get me wrong, those are great updates its just.. slow 

Am 15.2.2023 um 18:34 schrieb NineLine:

Considering how complex a module this is, these recent updates seem pretty good to me.

DCS: AH-64D by Eagle Dynamics
Added TADS IAT MP sync.
Add Israeli AH-64D livery created by ZedTank.
Add patches for Pilots.
Fixed: IHADSS image scale incorrect.
Fixed: CPG DMS Autopage button state is de-synced in multicrew.
Fixed: Selecting GUN on cyclic WAS was reverting MANRNG > value to default value.
Fixed: George spaming "Lost Target" messages.
Fixed: The Free Air Temperature gauge should not have backlighting.
Fixed: The standby Magnetic Compass lighting should be controlled by STBY INST knob.
Fixed: HMD Grayscale page coop synchronisation.
Fixed: BACK SCATTER message should have a space.
Instant Action Missions Update.

DCS: AH-64D by Eagle Dynamics
Added LODs 3/4/5 for improved performance.
Added cycled : NO WPN > MSL > RKT > GUN > NO WPN.
Fixed: NVG for CPG not working in multicrew.
Fixed: Multicrew - Navigation info on pilot's IHADSS not visible when CPG selects a point which is not part of the route.
Fixed: George Lists targets many miles away.
Fixed: COOP rockets with George when the gun is empty.
Fixed: Laser codes not synced between CPG and pilot.
Fixed: CPG turns off Rad alt, and is unable to turn back on.
Fixed: Special Options. Combox width too short.
Fixed: AI (as CPG) checks PNVS.
Fixed: George CPG interaction should not be affected by Pilot's ACQ source selection.
Fixed: George will not fire in LOAL.
Fixed: TSD Point icon corrections.
Fixed: Spawns in with left rudder input.
Fixed: Missing RKT NORM and RKT G-S messages.
Fixed: Control Measures missing text when deselected.
Fixed: AI CPG reports no detected targets, but provides a target list.
Fixed: Chaff/Flare inventories should not be editable in Rearm/Refuel menu.
Fixed: Flight Path Vector should not be displayed if on ground or less than 5 knots ground speed.
Fixed: Acceleration Cue should not change format based on vertical velocity.
Fixed: Torque flashing errors when in single engine format.
Fixed: New single RAZBAM FARP AH-64D needs to be moved forward to prevent tail break.
Fixed: OUTFRONT Boresight option still present on WPN-BORESIGHT page.
Fixed: Fly-To symbol should only be displayed if the aircraft is airborne.
Fixed: Time To Go format switch in IHADSS flight symbology.
Fixed: Typo in lesson 6 heading (RU).
Fixed: SCUD Busters - Wrong co-ords.
Total controls MPD profiles added.
Fixed: FUEL Advisory should not show in EUFD if the fuel page is open.
Fixed: AH-64D paint kit - APU Exhaust warning on wrong side.
Fixed: FMC channels not synced on CPG join - MP.
Fixed: Radar Altitude Hold uses barometric altitude as reference.
Fixed: Altitude Hold will oscillate when out of ground effect.
Fixed: CPG TRN Threat ring appearing on Pilot TSD when it should not.
Fixed: Threat ring shown in centre of TSD when TG point is set as ACQ but hidden by COORD SHOW options.
Fixed: VID page briefly showing the main format when VSEL (T6) format is enabled and the VID button is pressed.
Fixed: George should select "NO WPN" after depleting another.
Fixed: CPG AI George systems desync on seat switch cold start.
Fixed: Keyboard Unit Brightness Knob stops working correctly when assigned to Axis.
Added Multi-Target Tracker ( so far without synchronization for multi-crew W.I.P ). Instruction video.
Added Performance Page (W.I.P). Instruction video.
Fixed: Incorrect SAS Tones and Hold behavior.
Added Pilot and CP/G first person view models with animations.
Added new voice messages for George as Pilot and CP/G.
Added main gears collapse into the fuselage after hard landing.
Added new livery Korea Air Force, Egypt Air Force and Israeli AH-64D livery created by ZedTank.
livery update: Grim Reapers 4-2 ARB Devils 1-1 ARB.
Fixed: Desync ACQ TRN after CP/G`s detach and attach again.
Fixed; ALT-H activation conditions are not met.
Fixed: FMC channels not synced on CP/G join - MP.
Fixed: Can not create waypoints after CP/G exits.
Fixed: Unable to store targets in multiplayer.
Fixed: Range source switching back to laser range when Sight changed from HMD to TADS.
Fixed: Exported TEDAC creates a double image on the TEDAC in the cockpit.
Fixed: Jettison not synced between cockpits.
Fixed: Point deletion desync.
Fixed: Switching to the CP/G seat after setting attitude hold in pilot seat issue.
Fixed: Some ground units did not heat up in FLIR mode.
German Quickstart manual added.

DCS: AH-64D by Eagle Dynamics
Added Multi-Target Tracker ( so far without synchronization for multi-crew W.I.P ). Instruction video.
Added Performance Page (W.I.P). Instruction video.
Fixed: Incorrect SAS Tones and Hold behavior.
Added Pilot and CP/G first person view models with animations.
Added new voice messages for George as Pilot and CP/G.
Added main gears collapse into the fuselage after hard landing.
Added new livery Korea Air Force, Egypt Air Force and Israeli AH-64D livery created by ZedTank.
livery update: Grim Reapers 4-2 ARB Devils 1-1 ARB.
Fixed: Desync ACQ TRN after CP/G`s detach and attach again.
Fixed; ALT-H activation conditions are not met.
Fixed: FMC channels not synced on CP/G join - MP.
Fixed: Can not create waypoints after CP/G exits.
Fixed: Unable to store targets in multiplayer.
Fixed: Range source switching back to laser range when Sight changed from HMD to TADS.
Fixed: Exported TEDAC creates a double image on the TEDAC in the cockpit.
Fixed: Jettison not synced between cockpits.
Fixed: Point deletion desync.
Fixed: Switching to the CP/G seat after setting attitude hold in pilot seat issue.
Fixed: Some ground units did not heat up in FLIR mode.
Coming after this update: In addition to bug fixes, other ongoing work on the AH-64D includes improvements to the external model, AGM-114L, COMM and DATALINK for Longbow Net support, flight model and SCAS improvements, improved IR signature, and “Robbie” fuel tank option.

DCS: AH-64D by Eagle Dynamics
Total controls MPD profiles added
Fixed: FUEL Advisory should not show in EUFD if fuel page is open
Fixed: AH-64D paint kit - APU Exhaust warning on wrong side
Fixed: FMC channels not synced on CPG join - MP
Fixed: Radar Altitude Hold uses barometric altitude as reference
Fixed: Altitude Hold will oscillate when out of ground effect.
Fixed: CPG TRN Threat ring appearing on Pilot TSD when it should not
Fixed: Threat ring shown in centre of TSD when TG point is set as ACQ but hidden by COORD SHOW options
Fixed: VID page is briefly showing main format when VSEL (T6) format is enabled and VID button is pressed
Fixed: George should select "NO WPN" after depleting another
Fixed: CPG AI George systems desync on seat switch cold start
Fixed: Keyboard Unit Brightness Knob stop working correctly when assigned to Axis

 i mean about that..

"Added TADS IAT MP sync." i was extreamly suprised that this had to be a seperate patch in the first place

 

out of that huge list.. only few like these are things that we actualy realy get to feel (or atleast i )

Added Multi-Target Tracker ( so far without synchronization for multi-crew W.I.P ). 
Added Performance Page (W.I.P).

and maybe

Added main gears collapse into the fuselage after hard landing.

 

however i have to admit that the FCR is a huge undertaking and tbh most likely will make up for the other deficencys that come with the apache in its current state, be it lack of datalink or george not beeing able to use any form of stabilisation 

[ak22]

I don't own the Apache but Its a module from ED, one thing I have learned from years of playing DCS.

Is that ED keep making new modules which slows down development of the modules. The MI-8 has been out for 10 years now and we still don't have multicrew.....

Its their business model unfortunately, until people vote with their wallets nothing will change. 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by ak22

[EvMstein]

[RuskyV]

I would love to see more functionality for the apache but an underlying platform that performs well and opens new doors for future models and technology is also important, as frustrating as it can be to want something specific done for the apache, there has to be some appreciation for the efforts made in these other areas too.

Is development slow at times? sure it is, but there are good reasons for it.

[FalcoGer]

On 2/15/2023 at 7:51 PM, poochies said:

I agree 100 percent on the IDM data link  module really need it bad especially with a flight of 6 apaches knowing where everyones at is crucial , and fix the IAT so it locks up images at night using flir otherwise the module is shaping up great imo 

That's not how the apache datalink works. You won't get an updating position marker on the map. datalink is mostly for target sharing. You can get a position report by requesting it or getting it sent actively, but it will only update when you do that process manually and you don't get any fancy overlays on your helmet. You can also share fuel and ammo data. I'm not quite sure why they don't just update the positions automatically every 5 seconds like with most other DL implementations, but that's how it is.

FCR would be great of course, but I had been hoping for something that seems quick and easy, such as the LWR. Would help a lot with those ATGM threats. I was surprised that this has been put on delay in favor of more complex things, like FCR and IDM.

Also I don't mind features being delayed if that means bugs are being fixed. The issue is that every patch a new massive bug is being introduced or reintroduced while the old bugs don't get fixed nearly fast enough or are even acknowledged. The big ones being the tail being shot off and you can still fly around (but not repair) or the engines not starting in sync, or the engines not spooling down completely after receiving damage (and thus not repairable). That along with a myriad of sync issues in multicrew and a lot of less major but still annoying bugs, like the laser not behaving correctly (still), being able to use IAT as a live unit detector behind bushes and trees, etc.

Edited February 18, 2023 by FalcoGer

[poochies]

On 2/18/2023 at 4:37 PM, FalcoGer said:

That's not how the apache datalink works. You won't get an updating position marker on the map. datalink is mostly for target sharing. You can get a position report by requesting it or getting it sent actively, but it will only update when you do that process manually and you don't get any fancy overlays on your helmet. You can also share fuel and ammo data. I'm not quite sure why they don't just update the positions automatically every 5 seconds like with most other DL implementations, but that's how it is.

FCR would be great of course, but I had been hoping for something that seems quick and easy, such as the LWR. Would help a lot with those ATGM threats. I was surprised that this has been put on delay in favor of more complex things, like FCR and IDM.

Also I don't mind features being delayed if that means bugs are being fixed. The issue is that every patch a new massive bug is being introduced or reintroduced while the old bugs don't get fixed nearly fast enough or are even acknowledged. The big ones being the tail being shot off and you can still fly around (but not repair) or the engines not starting in sync, or the engines not spooling down completely after receiving damage (and thus not repairable). That along with a myriad of sync issues in multicrew and a lot of less major but still annoying bugs, like the laser not behaving correctly (still), being able to use IAT as a live unit detector behind bushes and trees, etc.

 

Interesting I did not know that , hopefully it's still pretty useful for SA of other flight members 

[Hotdognz]

It certainly is slow progress and the amount added in Ninelines post when you break them out doesn't seem like much in a year, take out the skins which you could have download from user files so I see no point adding them in as new features.

Break down the added features in to sections and only 3 are new systems, the rest are animations and George updates.

Added TADS IAT MP sync.
Added Multi-Target Tracker ( so far without synchronization for multi-crew W.I.P ). Instruction video.
Added Performance Page (W.I.P). Instruction video.
Added Pilot and CP/G first person view models with animations.
Added main gears collapse into the fuselage after hard landing.
Added LODs 3/4/5 for improved performance.
Added cycled : NO WPN > MSL > RKT > GUN > NO WPN

Total controls MPD profiles added
Added new voice messages for George as Pilot and CP/G.
Add patches for Pilots.

Added new livery Korea Air Force, Egypt Air Force and Israeli AH-64D livery created by ZedTank.
Add Israeli AH-64D livery created by ZedTank

I thought we may have had the 1200 rounds to replace the Robbie tank, everyone removes fuel anyway so it flies nicer, I thought this would have been an important update

But its ED I fully expect this to be in EA for 4-5 years like the F18/F16

Edited February 20, 2023 by Hotdognz

[Varry007]

let's not forget the bugs which got introduced over the updates.

Just to name a few:

- George not able to aim/fire canon anymore in MP

- engine 2 stalling/shutting down during cold start

- boresighting in VR is broken

These things were fine before, but introduced with updates.

The inability for Geroge to fire the canon in MP remains unadressed over the last 3 updates.....

Edited February 21, 2023 by Varry007

[M1Combat]

I mean y'all realize it's still early access right?  Like...  It's a beta and all that?

Did you all think that was like a 30 day thing or what?

[Dragon1-1]

Also note that the Apache is almost all "big" features, and it was released pretty complete in first place - compare that to the Viper, which added a lot of things because on release, it had almost nothing. ED had learned from that, and now the phase where a lot of things were added in quick succession was done behind closed doors, and only the final phase remains, where they fix bugs and add the features that didn't make it in before for various reasons. 

[NineLine]

On 2/20/2023 at 4:02 AM, Hotdognz said:

But its ED I fully expect this to be in EA for 4-5 years like the F18/F16

It will take as long as it needs to take to be the very best simulation of the Ah-64D on the market, so yes. It is ED. 

3 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Also note that the Apache is almost all "big" features, and it was released pretty complete in first place - compare that to the Viper, which added a lot of things because on release, it had almost nothing. ED had learned from that, and now the phase where a lot of things were added in quick succession was done behind closed doors, and only the final phase remains, where they fix bugs and add the features that didn't make it in before for various reasons. 

You cannot compare this to the Viper, it is nothing like the Viper. In ways its much more complex than the Viper just looking at multicrew/George.

[Dragon1-1]

I was thinking more of how Viper was released extremely early, with most major features incomplete or outright absent, while Apache was the opposite, the aircraft was fully combat-capable right out of the box. Of course, they're completely different aircraft, not even in the same category. Apache has fewer distinct features, but what it has is more complex than any single system on the Viper.

[Hotdognz]

10 hours ago, NineLine said:

It will take as long as it needs to take to be the very best simulation of the Ah-64D on the market, so yes. It is ED. 

You cannot compare this to the Viper, it is nothing like the Viper. In ways its much more complex than the Viper just looking at multicrew/George.

Well its certainly more complicated than the F16 and I'm sure its really way more complicated the YAK52 and that's been in early access since 2018 and I'm still waiting for that to be finished, so I'm standing by my 4-6 years until the AH-64 is possible out of EA, and yes I understand what EA as most of my module are sill in EA

 

[Varry007]

I personally don't care it takes long to have all the features. I just hate they introduce new bugs, diminishing what is already there, and not prioritize the fixing of these bugs.....

[M1Combat]

17 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I was thinking more of how Viper was released extremely early -

And why do you suppose they did that?