DCS Newsletter discussion 17th February 2023 - RAZBAM F-15E Pre-order

[MAXsenna]

For some. Not for everyone, particularly in countries where payment by credit card is not big (not the case for me, but in some other countries that's a big deal). Financial systems and usage patterns differ a lot, particularly once you get out of Eurozone. If you can get a free USD account with a good conversion rate, good for you, not everyone can. I would pay more on e-shop even if I could somehow convert at exactly the market rate, so for me, Steam is the only way to go.

You mean you cannot get an ordinary Visa debit card in your bank?
You cannot have a PayPal account you can pay directly to from your bank?

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[Mars Exulte]

There's always a unicorn exception, but expecting the world to stop turning and people to cater specifically to *insert unique situation* is unrealistic. The majority of people around the globe are literally not affected by these ''special circumstances'' and most businesses are going to opt to do what's best for them regardless of whether a few hundred isolated individuals are put upon by it.

[Dragon1-1]

It's not that rare once you get out of your bubble. Yes, it is possible to get those payment methods set up, but would you do it to use a single store? Debit cards, in particular, costs money in most banks in my country, particularly if you don't use them regularly (you have to spend a non-insignificant amount each month using it to waive the fee). So, if they're from a country where debit cards are not very popular, you're essentially asking people to set one up specifically for ED store, then pay a monthly fee for something they don't use. This is not a "unicorn" situation by any means. I don't use PayPal but I remember that it was a huge hassle some time ago, as well.

You're being the snowflake here, completely insensitive to what people from other countries have to deal with, just because you never encountered that particular situation yourself. It's far from being "a few hundred isolated individuals", we're talking whole countries. Just accept that unless the e-shop ups its game massively, most people on Steam will stick to Steam, because it's just plain better. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[Gierasimov]

@Dragon1-1 I am now genuinely curious, how do you pay for whatever you buy via Steam? Does it offer a wire transfer in your country or something? 

Just asking, don't mean to fuel the Steam / Standalone fire.

[MAXsenna]

It's not that rare once you get out of your bubble. Yes, it is possible to get those payment methods set up, but would you do it to use a single store? Debit cards, in particular, costs money in most banks in my country, particularly if you don't use them regularly (you have to spend a non-insignificant amount each month using it to waive the fee). So, if they're from a country where debit cards are not very popular, you're essentially asking people to set one up specifically for ED store, then pay a monthly fee for something they don't use. This is not a "unicorn" situation by any means. I don't use PayPal but I remember that it was a huge hassle some time ago, as well.
You're being the snowflake here, completely insensitive to what people from other countries have to deal with, just because you never encountered that particular situation yourself. It's far from being "a few hundred isolated individuals", we're talking whole countries. Just accept that unless the e-shop ups its game massively, most people on Steam will stick to Steam, because it's just plain better. 

Okay, that's a bummer, and I really feel for you.
Here in Norway for my standard ordinary VISA card from my bank, (I don't want a credit card), I pay USD 25 a year. I pay no fees whatever the transaction is. Regardless if it is cash withdrawals, (which haven't done for years because I don't do drugs, and all the dealers are going crypto anyways ).
No fees using it in stores or online. And using it online use whatever today's exchange rate is. Which is bad these days. The dollar used to be 30% less a few years ago to the Norwegian Krone.
Even if I go abroad I pay no fees in stores or for cash withdrawals.
I have linked my cards to PayPal, but if I just want to top off my account, I pay to a special local bank account number, no fees as well, and the funds are deposited in a few days.
Technology progresses in most of the world quickly, but I guess in some countries, not so fast. Can't really blame ED for this, but it's a shame regardless.

My father in law (RIP) used to say, that the real Mafia were banks, insurance and lawers. Apologies if I offend anyone.

Cheers!

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[WinterH]

16 minutes ago, Gierasimov said:

I am now genuinely curious, how do you pay for whatever you buy via Steam? Does it offer a wire transfer in your country or something? 

I'm not Dragon1-1 obviously, and afaik we're not in the same country. But I guess I can provide an example. I'm in Turkey, and the exchange rates here have been progressively more horrible every year for the last 3-4ish years.

I've started DCS on standalone, and that's the platform I still use. But, I have started buying on Steam since late 2015ish when exchange rate issues started. Be it ED Store, or the Steam, I pay with the same credit card. Difference is, I pay in local currency over Steam, and in USD over here in ED Shop. Banks willl usually have a more exorbinant exchange rate, and since the expense is listed in USD for the card, if the value of $ goes up against TRY when I pay the card debt, I can end up eating even more of a mark-up. Also, Steam tends to have modules slightly cheaper.

When my finances are better, I try to buy from ED shop anyway, especially if it's an aircraft/dev I want to support. But when the times are tough, it is either Steam or no-buy. And I'm a turbo-aircraft nerd who loves anything, and tries to buy all the aircraft modules. Many folks here will just not buy modules here unless it is something they really want, or is a popular aircraft etc. Case in point, my local DCS buddies from when I started haven't gotten any new modules in over half a decade, only one of them got some new stuff recently, and that in a Steam sale. I expect it is a similar case in other countries where the economic situation is similar, I've been hearing similar stuff from Brasilian players for example. Price difference in Steam vs ED store isn't normally huge, but being able to pay in own currency is kinda important.

Why do I post this now? Well, to provide some context for why Steam matters in some areas in ways most can't think of. Without Steam, devs would more or less lose some big markets where purchasing power and local currencies aren't in a great place, people in these markets are already giving up on more things to enjoy a module when they buy one. Right now a full price DCS module costs a quarter of my rent here

Now, I'm not saying ED or Razbam, or anyone should do this or that. I was mildly miffed at Razbam's choice, but it is their business, and I suppose I'll have to admit that this thing has been in development for a long long time. Just posting this to provide another perspective about why in some countries Steam is an important shop for DCS community. 

Still, both not taking part in miles program and not offering preorder in Steam doesn't look nice at all. But that's besides the point, and like I've said, it's their business in the end. And I'll have to admit, 3rd parties selling something on Steam are subject to royalties of both Steam and ED afaik, so I can understand the hit feeling somewhat large on a high development cost module.

 

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, I'm not from Turkey, but my situation with currency is broadly similar. Steam prices are not subject to vagaries of the currency market (at least most of the time, I suspect part of the Mirage F1 debacle was that it came out when exchanges were going crazy), government taxing currency exchange, and banks themselves charging for it. They also seem to be adjusted to better reflect the currency's actual worth.

4 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Technology progresses in most of the world quickly, but I guess in some countries, not so fast. Can't really blame ED for this, but it's a shame regardless.

It's not how just it progresses, it's how it can skip steps in some places. For instance, much of Africa went straight to smartphones without really experiencing the PC and landline stage of internet technology. In some countries things like PayPal or card never caught on, but maybe they pay by wire transfer, Google Pay or even some weird indigenous payment service (although it's unlikely Steam would take those). Banks rip people off all over the world, but they do it in different ways in each country (France, for instance, taxes its cash exchanges through the nose, or at least used to when visited it).

[MAXsenna]

Yeah, I'm not from Turkey, but my situation with currency is broadly similar. Steam prices are not subject to vagaries of the currency market (at least most of the time, I suspect part of the Mirage F1 debacle was that it came out when exchanges were going crazy), government taxing currency exchange, and banks themselves charging for it. They also seem to be adjusted to better reflect the currency's actual worth.
It's not how just it progresses, it's how it can skip steps in some places. For instance, much of Africa went straight to smartphones without really experiencing the PC and landline stage of internet technology. In some countries things like PayPal or card never caught on, but maybe they pay by wire transfer, Google Pay or even some weird indigenous payment service (although it's unlikely Steam would take those). Banks rip people off all over the world, but they do it in different ways in each country (France, for instance, taxes its cash exchanges through the nose, or at least used to when visited it).

If I do a cash withdrawal in France, I don't pay a single cent. I get the exact amount I withdraw without any extra fees, and with the current exchange rate, as long as I choose the local one and not NOK. Then my bank will screw me. Same when I pay in Sweden. We can always choose, (and the clerks will ask you), to pay in SEK or NOK.
I guess it has to being part of EU/EEA.

BTW. I really hope that all your friends and loved ones are well!

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[pii]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Here in Norway for my standard ordinary VISA card from my bank, (I don't want a credit card)

VISA is not a credit card in Norway? Here it is. 

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb pii:

VISA is not a credit card in Norway? Here it is. 

VISA (the company) also offers debit cards, not credit cards only.

[Dragon1-1]

They do both credit and debit cards. The latter are typically less of a highway robbery. 

[Daerchanar]

5 hours ago, Gierasimov said:

@Dragon1-1 I am now genuinely curious, how do you pay for whatever you buy via Steam? Does it offer a wire transfer in your country or something? 

Just asking, don't mean to fuel the Steam / Standalone fire.

I know that in some developing countries, including those in south america where US dollar is not the main currency, the amount of US dollars generated, that is, entered the country, is one of or the main source of GDP. Easier to understand if we talk about international trade balance: the more the ratio leans towards exports, the more US dollars the country accumulated during its economic year, thus, the larger its GDP growth and the lesser its debt. Quite difficult for a third world country to find itself in this position, after all, they are developing countries with under developed industrialization competing against over protective trade unions (EU, US, ...).

The result is that in these countries there are explicit legislations to retain as much US dollars as possible, like huge import taxes and legal curbing of money flow. To overcome this problem, companies are "invited" to settle in the country if they want to take a share of its economical potential: Industries build local plants, banks build subsidiaries, services build local business offices. It's a another way of saying that international companies are thus forced to deal on the local currencies.

A website that sells from the EU or US or Asia means that the consumer must pay for all the import taxes and others, while if at the same time, the store had a business office in the country, dealing in the local currency, like Steam does, it has basically overcome the whole problem.

 

[Hunter Joker]

In my country, credit card or PAYPAL is not our main payment method, which is one of the reasons why we are not used to using ED e-shop. Using Steam instead of ED e-shop is a failure in life? What a strong and strange sense of pride! You must have a very successful life. interesting

Sorry mate, just curiosity, if in Your country, to buy something online, credit card payment or PayPal are not Your main payment method, how do You pay online? With suburban-like form of them? With cash that You meticulously put inside an envelope and then You send it? I have Steam and is conncted to credit card and PayPal for payment, so where's the difference? Why use Steam? Because of the colorful interface? Because You launch it and magically all Your game are automatically updated (even standalone DCS work this way but it's "so difficult" to click two times on one icon...).
Whining for a postponed pre order, whining for not having a same treatment cause YOU decide to use another platform, whining cause You can't use miles even if was stated that not all 3d part dev will adere to such programs, it's bareble acceptable to put up with this people.

Inviato dal mio BLA-L09 utilizzando Tapatalk

[gzj3401]

 

With cash that You meticulously put inside an envelope and then You send it?

haha. You are very humour mate. But the world is diverse. We have our own online payment systems, similar to Paypal but not Paypal. Steam has supported our payment system years ago. You can't deny that Steam does much better with globalization than ED's own online store. This should be one of the reasons why ED chose to enter Steam in the past and will continue to remain on Steam in the future. For a long time, our community has been used to using Steam to buy/download/update/start the game, because Steam is really easy to use for us. And, you know, once a habit is formed, it's hard to change.

[MAXsenna]

VISA is not a credit card in Norway? Here it is. 

You can choose it in several "flavours" actually.

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They do both credit and debit cards. The latter are typically less of a highway robbery. 

Actually, I only transfer funds to it from another account when needed, (takes two seconds in an app), for the card I use online. So no credit for obvious reasons.

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[ColinM9991]

Any chance of the auth endpoints being moved away from the website so future pre-orders don't bring down multiplayer for people? Absolutely nothing wrong with having a pre-order and generating hype for one, but it does become an issue when it impacts people's weekend plans.

 

And before anybody goes off on one, no - this is not at all an unreasonable ask. Having everything integrated as one is a single point of failure.

[Gunfreak]

3 hours ago, pii said:

VISA is not a credit card in Norway? Here it is. 

Almost any bank in Norway uses visa as a bank card. Basically it uses the visa infrastructure (related to terminals, ATMs) but is given out by your regular bank, and the card is connected to your standard bank account where your salary goes.

[freehand]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's not that rare once you get out of your bubble. Yes, it is possible to get those payment methods set up, but would you do it to use a single store? Debit cards, in particular, costs money in most banks in my country, particularly if you don't use them regularly (you have to spend a non-insignificant amount each month using it to waive the fee). So, if they're from a country where debit cards are not very popular, you're essentially asking people to set one up specifically for ED store, then pay a monthly fee for something they don't use. This is not a "unicorn" situation by any means. I don't use PayPal but I remember that it was a huge hassle some time ago, as well.

You're being the snowflake here, completely insensitive to what people from other countries have to deal with, just because you never encountered that particular situation yourself. It's far from being "a few hundred isolated individuals", we're talking whole countries. Just accept that unless the e-shop ups its game massively, most people on Steam will stick to Steam, because it's just plain better. 

 

So where are you from ?

[pii]

3 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Almost any bank in Norway uses visa as a bank card. Basically it uses the visa infrastructure (related to terminals, ATMs) but is given out by your regular bank, and the card is connected to your standard bank account where your salary goes.

That's called a ATM card here. I was just wondering.

On 2/18/2023 at 6:25 AM, Dannyvandelft said:

Charging half your customers 10% more than the other half is good business sense?

That's new.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

You kind of need to look at the entire picture not just your complaint.

[Mars Exulte]

19 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's not that rare once you get out of your bubble.

 My ''bubble'' probably includes the majority of online commerce and the bulk of the people who actually fund the game @@

19 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Yes, it is possible to get those payment methods set up, but would you do it to use a single store?

 Depends on whether I want what's in that store? Would you get in a taxi and ride an hour out of your way to go to ONE MALL?! Probably, if there was a reason to.

19 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You're being the snowflake here, completely insensitive to what people from other countries have to deal with

 I'm not insensitive to it persay, I *am* saying that not every business is going to care if you do not make up a significant portion of their income. If the sum total of them being on Steam results in a net loss compared to NOT after accounting for both ED and Steam taking their cut, then no, 99% of people are going to opt for the method that... doesn't screw them irrespective of how many people feel ''offended'' by it.

 I'm first in line to throw molotovs at corporate hqs, but expecting them to shoot themselves in the foot so ''some people'' feel included is unreasonable, too.

19 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

just because you never encountered that particular situation yourself

 Whether I encountered it is irrelevant. It's simple math : If decision = business make more money, decision good. If decision = business make less money, decision bad. That's what has driven this process. They expect it to cost more than it is worth at this time. That's it. Nobody is pissing on your nation and circumstances, it just doesn't necessarily benefit anybody but you to care.

19 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's far from being "a few hundred isolated individuals", we're talking whole countries

 And unless those whole countries make up enough sales to make up for the cost of it all, it's a net loss, and nobody cares.

19 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Just accept that unless the e-shop ups its game massively, most people on Steam will stick to Steam, because it's just plain better. 

  I don't care one way or the other.

[Dragon1-1]

5 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

 My ''bubble'' probably includes the majority of online commerce and the bulk of the people who actually fund the game @@

Ah, so I take it that you're Chinese? Because I usually get that attitude from people in the second biggest online market.

FYI, being in the US doesn't automatically make your point of view the center of the universe. Europe, China and India are pretty damn big on their own, just to name a few. Unless you can back it up with stats, assumptions like that are incredibly narrow-minded and quite frankly, ignorant. The US is probably the largest single market for DCS as of now (in part due to the e-shop being geared towards it, I'd expect), but I doubt it actually makes up more than 50% of the revenue. 

5 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

Depends on whether I want what's in that store? Would you get in a taxi and ride an hour out of your way to go to ONE MALL?! Probably, if there was a reason to.

OK, so you're willing to regularly pay, say, 25USD per year, just for the pleasure of being able to potentially buy something in one place. Well, I suppose it's not a whole lot of money, but don't you think it's a bit of a raw deal? Pay every month for something you use maybe twice a year. Just about the only thing it makes sense for is insurance. As mentioned in discussion upthread, in many countries, you pay for having payment options even if you don't use them. If to take a taxi you had to buy a monthly subscription (this might already be a thing somewhere), would you be so eager to set it up just for a single trip to a mall?

BTW, I'm definitely not going to a mall an hour out of my way (which would be in the next city over) just to buy one item. I'm also not paying for a taxi (though the nose, I might add, taxis are only good within the city they're based in) when there's a perfectly good train running every hour. I'd order online, or, say, arrange meeting with a friend who lives in said city, so I haven't wasted time and money. My city is big enough that I don't even go to a mall on the other end of it, unless I already have other business in the area (and I'm also not using a taxi to get there, I'm not paying for being stuck in traffic when there's a dedicated tram track to most useful places). Mostly because it's literally cheaper to have it delivered it to my doorstep than to pay a public transport fare downtown and back (and forget about using a car, if the gas cost doesn't get you, finding a parking spot will). Tell me you're American without telling me you're American... If you gave that example to an European as ignorant about the rest of the world as you are, you'd be laughed off and/or offered a bridge for sale. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[Gierasimov]

Dear customers:

 Our road map.

You will receive a F-15E with a software update known as Suite4E+ version. The F-15E didn't really have changes in Blocks or Lots like the F-16 or F-18, the F-15E was in the form of software updates called suites. 

We will continue to work and add those systems and weapons and as they came online with the real life F-15E, future updates (Extras). This is our "Chronological Technology Updates" known as CTU and will be an era specific designation. 

Current version is Suite 4E+ set around 2005 (mid 2000s). You will have FULL AN/APG-70 AA and AG Radar, and the AN/AAQ-14 Lantirn Target Pod access. This will allow you to target and destroy aircraft and ground targets originally designed for the F-15E in Early Access when released. 

As time goes on and as we continue to implement newer items you will start to receive these CTUs in the form of Systems and Weapons accessible via Special Options Menu in DCS. 

First CTU (2010), will introduce you to the AN/AAQ-28 Litening II Targeting Pod and the Newer "Digital" UFC.

Second CTU (2015), will be the AN/AAQ-33 Sniper XR Pod and JHMCS.

The CTUs will be developed (and the product properly updated/upgraded with no extra cost) as fast as we are able to fulfill the original Suite45+’s features and characteristics.

2023, the year of the Strike Eagle

-------------------------------------

The above is from RAZBAM Discord. 

With them not able to guarantee EA in the next two quarters, as already quoted before in this thread, I guess it will be 2024, the true year of Mudhen for me, as I am keen on getting the second CTU really....

...and by that time I guess I will be already hyped for the Fulcrum

 

[draconus]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:48 AM, cloose said:

Feeling like a second class citizen here.

You pay 30% less to the devs so what did you expect? You can always go to another store.

[ColinM9991]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

You pay 30% less to the devs so what did you expect? You can always go to another store.

Is this EDs official stance then? Rhetorical question, to be clear, as I know the answer is no.

How long more are we going to blabber on about Steam vs anti-Steam? Also, Valve's rate isn't a flat 30%. It's 30%, 25% and 20% based on the value of total sales. If ED had an issue with the take then they're are absolutely within their rights to remove DCS from Steam. They have already said there is no intention of doing this. Additionally, Valve aren't clawing at the money. They're providing an entire ecosystem to the publishers and developers to market their game, distribute it as well as support modding. It's up to ED to take advantage of this. They don't, because any modding support needs to be agnostic.

 

Come on people, get a grip. Two systems can coexist without you having to shove your opinion down everybody's throat.

Edited February 20, 2023 by ColinM9991

[Mars Exulte]

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Ah, so I take it that you're Chinese? Because I usually get that attitude from people in the second biggest online market.

  China has it's own kettle of issues with all of this, I'm sure.

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

FYI, being in the US doesn't automatically make your point of view the center of the universe. Europe, China and India are pretty damn big on their own, just to name a few.

 Yep, very true. Also completely irrelevant unless they also make up significant numbers of DCS purchasers. The world also does not revolve around you, ffs. This stuff isn't that complicated and I don't get how you consistently keep buzzing the proverbial tower.

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Unless you can back it up with stats

 I don't need stats, Razbam and ED have the stats, and presumably said stats drive their decisions on what markets to operate in. Nobody has polled me for what I think they should do, we're discussing general principles and likely reasoning for the decision you're bitching about.

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The US is probably the largest single market for DCS as of now (in part due to the e-shop being geared towards it, I'd expect), but I doubt it actually makes up more than 50% of the revenue. 

 Again, 30% to ED, 30% to Steam, on top of a 30% discount, doesn't leave much left for the people making the game. So in your own hypothetical, if those sales numbers combined with the increased profit margins = more than the other, then it is of net benefit to the developer. Which is a very simple concept you are consistently missing, and is all I'm saying. You're basically screaming ''Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children'' and I'm saying ''What if there aren't enough children to matter?''

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

OK, so you're willing to regularly pay, say, 25USD per year, just for the pleasure of being able to potentially buy something in one place.

 If it's something significant, yes, and more to the point this sort of thing is utilitarian in nature and easily used for more than one thing. Whether it's worth it or not is up to the individual, and whether it's worth it or not to care for the developer is up to them and their projected profit margins.

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, I suppose it's not a whole lot of money, but don't you think it's a bit of a raw deal?

 Probably? Depends on currency conversion and relative economics of the people involved. $25 a year isn't noteworthy for me to even consider, might be for somebody else. Individual decision there. Not really something a foreign developer is likely to care about though. They're concerned with like... THEIR monthly bills and economics.

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

BTW, I'm definitely not going to a mall an hour out of my way (which would be in the next city over) just to buy one item.

 Alright, so we've established you are just some guy that harrumphs in the corner by yourself while shaking your fist at clouds. Glad we got that settled @@

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Tell me you're American without telling me you're American...

 Tell me you lack reading comprehension @@ Nothing I've said, not a single bit, has anything to do with how ''the world works'' in or outside USA and everything to do.with trying to get you to understand nobody is pissing on your country just because a decision has a tangentially negative/inconvenient effect on you by explaining possible considerations a FOR PROFIT BUSINESS might take regarding where and how to deploy products and how those decisions can affect their profitability in a way potentially very significant to small developers.

 If the number of people gained by providing an option does not offset the cost of reduced margins by providing it, it can result in a net loss DESPITE a net gain in number of sales. This is not a difficult concept to grasp, and it is the reasoning behind their decision, whether their decision is accurate or not is debatable, but the idea behind it is pretty simple.

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

If you gave that example to an European as ignorant about the rest of the world as you are, you'd be laughed off and/or offered a bridge for sale. 

 I think it's really funny that you complain about me ''making up numbers'', which I literally haven't done anywhere in any of this, while doing so yourself and in your own example proposing numbers that would absolutely be relevant to making financial decisions.

 You strike me as the kind of guy who has never run a business but absolutely would run one into the ground given half a chance (and blame it on how nobody wants to work!) lol You totally have a future as a Twitter executive

Edited February 20, 2023 by Mars Exulte