cannot reproduce Engine issues when using MW-50(bug?)

[MAD-MM]

The later Models of D9 1900 Ps Take Off Power often described with continious Power setting of 3000 RPM .  Emergency Power 3250 RPM is described with 30 Min.  But thats from flight testing reports no official engine manual. After the 109 Report the heat dissiapted from engine is the same with/without MW50 will not matter for cooling at least. The mechanical wear of course will increase.

[grafspee]

7 hours ago, MAD-MM said:

The later Models of D9 1900 Ps Take Off Power often described with continious Power setting of 3000 RPM .  Emergency Power 3250 RPM is described with 30 Min.  But thats from flight testing reports no official engine manual. After the 109 Report the heat dissiapted from engine is the same with/without MW50 will not matter for cooling at least. The mechanical wear of course will increase.

In DCS we don't care about engine life time in terms of total work hours before engines replacement, so data from flight testing is more then enough, if they could test D9 at 3250rpm for 30min and they established continuous power at 3000rpm i'm good with that. Modeling DCS D9 that way, that we could not follow those tests with success is even more bad, then not knowing factory limitations.

Edited November 7, 2023 by grafspee

[NineLine]

21 hours ago, NineLine said:

For "Emergency Power (increased take-off power)" the first entry I believe is without MW-50 and using the "Motorbediengerät" (MBG).

I do not think the MW50 itself at all is limited to 3 minutes, rather you need to monitor your gauges and adjust as needed. MBG will nuke your motor if you leave it on too long. 

Ok, I talked with the team and I was wrong, the first entry is not with MBG, but with MW-50. And the 3-minute limit is high RPM and low speeds as you climb on T/O. 3 Minutes is a recommendation based on preserving engine life, obviously, something we do not track in DCS and provided you climb above 280-290, you could go longer than 3 minutes. 

Sorry about that.

[Roadrunner189]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb MAD-MM:

The later Models of D9 1900 Ps Take Off Power often described with continious Power setting of 3000 RPM .  Emergency Power 3250 RPM is described with 30 Min.  But thats from flight testing reports no official engine manual. After the 109 Report the heat dissiapted from engine is the same with/without MW50 will not matter for cooling at least. The mechanical wear of course will increase.

Well, this statement is partly wrong, because there was clearly a JFM regulation (Triebwerkskarte 9-8213E v. November 1944. S. 10/11) where two 213A engine versions are concerned. One 213A and AG-1, whereby the emergency power/load pressure of the first must not exceed about 1.55ata. And after the MW50 extraction at least 5min. Normal flight must be flown before MW50 can be used again. The AG-1 engine, for example, may only be switched on in flight with MW50
in automatic mode, as the thtottle flap will only open up to 80% when the MW50 is removed below 500m and it is therefore recommended to switch on the automatic mode during take-off ....usw.

And as far as 30 minutes of Emergency Power was concerned, that was only possible on the 213E and late M-Vers.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Roadrunner189

[MAD-MM]

53 minutes ago, Roadrunner189 said:

Well, this statement is partly wrong, because there was clearly a JFM regulation (Triebwerkskarte 9-8213E v. November 1944. S. 10/11) where two 213A engine versions are concerned. One 213A and AG-1, whereby the emergency power/load pressure of the first must not exceed about 1.55ata. And after the MW50 extraction at least 5min. Normal flight must be flown before MW50 can be used again. The AG-1 engine, for example, may only be switched on in flight with MW50
in automatic mode, as the thtottle flap will only open up to 80% when the MW50 is removed below 500m and it is therefore recommended to switch on the automatic mode during take-off ....usw.

And as far as 30 minutes of Emergency Power was concerned, that was only possible on the 213E and late M-Vers.

 

When it is wrong what the guys have done in Flight-testing with the Dora what they discribed we should probably send them to gulag because they are have not flown your 190d9 after your Triebwekskarte. To bad to late for gulag next time we get them 

[NineLine]

So if there is still an issue I need to look at, please supply a new track and I will take a look. Otherwise, I will close this report. Thanks. 

[Roadrunner189]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb MAD-MM:

When it is wrong what the guys have done in Flight-testing with the Dora what they discribed we should probably send them to gulag because they are have not flown your 190d9 after your Triebwekskarte. To bad to late for gulag next time we get them 

The engine card is not mine, but from Junkers Motor Werke A.G exactly for D-9!....so everyone off to GULAG....the NKVD is already waiting impatiently... ha-ha-ha...

Edited November 8, 2023 by Roadrunner189

[Hobel]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb NineLine:

So if there is still an issue I need to look at, please supply a new track and I will take a look. Otherwise, I will close this report. Thanks. 

Yes, a few more questions.  

In a fast lvl flight with MW50, the automatic cooling is not able to cool the engine sufficiently and the engine sometimes breaks down immediately after 3 minutes. 

So 

  -Does the automatic cooler need to be adjusted better? 

 

  -Or is it correct that you have to adjust the cooling manually when using mw50. 

 

  -Or does the engine overheat too quickly in dcs with MW5O that the automatic cooling cannot compensate for this?

[NineLine]

I would need to see a track of you breaking the engine in 3 minutes in fast level flight, I have not experienced this.

 

[Roadrunner189]

I looked again in JFM documents and discovered the following report for 190D-9 with 213A/AG-1:

So, according to JFM field report no. 213/53 of 31.10. 1944 with the introduction of MBG 9-9011/G1 (also known as AG-1) it was allowed to use the engine in S/N power for 30min and S/K power could be used as continuous power from now on.

I must have forgotten the above report. Well, the above said by @Mad-MM is correct and his statement is correct!

p.s. Sorry @Mad-MM, I simply forgot about it.

p.s.s.  ...nevertheless, it is only about S/N performance and not about S/N + MW50...

Edited November 9, 2023 by Roadrunner189

[MAD-MM]

Just gave the 190 another try, was little bit of dogfighting 1x AI ; 1x Player. engine overheat dead...probably something hit me from AAA realy doubt this ;/
short after 5:25 in game time the Engine starts with loud clunk clunk in the cockpit..

Ps. the rear fuel pump was disabled because fuel imbalance

WOLF_PACK_US_WWII_DYNAMIC_BASE_CAPTURE_v4.6.1U-20231128-161403.trk

Edited November 28, 2023 by MAD-MM

[NineLine]

I'll see what I can see, thanks!

[NineLine]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:57 AM, MAD-MM said:

Just gave the 190 another try, was little bit of dogfighting 1x AI ; 1x Player. engine overheat dead...probably something hit me from AAA realy doubt this ;/
short after 5:25 in game time the Engine starts with loud clunk clunk in the cockpit..

Ps. the rear fuel pump was disabled because fuel imbalance

WOLF_PACK_US_WWII_DYNAMIC_BASE_CAPTURE_v4.6.1U-20231128-161403.trk 29.08 MB · 3 downloads

 

I watched this a couple of times, and while the temps did run somewhat hot, I didn't really see much abuse here. I am gonna watch it again and I may submit it to the team to get their thoughts. 

[MAD-MM]

On 11/29/2023 at 6:31 PM, NineLine said:

I watched this a couple of times, and while the temps did run somewhat hot, I didn't really see much abuse here. I am gonna watch it again and I may submit it to the team to get their thoughts. 

Bye the way, some thoughts allready 8 weeks later from team?

[MAD-MM]

On 11/29/2023 at 6:31 PM, NineLine said:

I watched this a couple of times, and while the temps did run somewhat hot, I didn't really see much abuse here. I am gonna watch it again and I may submit it to the team to get their thoughts. 

?

[MAD-MM]

@BIGNEWY seams nineline is in holiday the last 10 weeks, sure there is more important tasks then shortly check back with the team why the Engine shakes itself appart from MW50 usage.

Maybe it is my fault, i dont know but so engine is some integral part of a prob fighter.

Short answer to the problem 10 weeks later is asking to much? 

Edited February 12 by MAD-MM

[Gasman63]

Please excuse this if it is a stupid question. I have the radiator flaps mapped but is there an automatic mode? If so, how does one engage it?

thanks

 

[razo+r]

14 minutes ago, Gasman63 said:

Please excuse this if it is a stupid question. I have the radiator flaps mapped but is there an automatic mode? If so, how does one engage it?

thanks

 

It is always in automatic mode by default unless you open the flaps too much, then they will stay there. Just close them and slightly open them again and it should be back in automatic.

[Gasman63]

Thanks

 

[NineLine]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:44 AM, MAD-MM said:

@BIGNEWY seams nineline is in holiday the last 10 weeks, sure there is more important tasks then shortly check back with the team why the Engine shakes itself appart from MW50 usage.

Maybe it is my fault, i dont know but so engine is some integral part of a prob fighter.

Short answer to the problem 10 weeks later is asking to much? 

 

You need to continue to wait, the team hasn't had a chance to take a look yet. Its not exactly an easy one to see and/or diagnose. So sadly more patience, and keep new tracks coming I will at least take a look at them and keep adding them to the report. 

 

11 hours ago, razo+r said:

It is always in automatic mode by default unless you open the flaps too much, then they will stay there. Just close them and slightly open them again and it should be back in automatic.

I believe its that they stay open as you adjust them, but if you close them fully they will go back to automatic. 

[Art-J]

A shot in the dark, do these intermittent engine failures happen more often when playing in MT or in ST mode?

Maybe it's similar issue to scripted campaign flags and triggers randomly failing in MT while working OK in ST?

Edited February 15 by Art-J

[NineLine]

I flew for many hours yesterday, both offline and online. I used MT and I was not able to experience the issue. I am not saying that means it doesn't exist as I remember the previous issue that took me sooooo very long to replicate, so I haven't given up just yet.

I thought I flew fairly abusive, but I did not go out of my way to abuse too much as what is the point of that test where the engine may fail appropriately? My other concern is I am not seeing this as a widespread issue, meaning its only a couple of people that have reported it, I know that doesn't mean its not happening to others and they just move on to another plane, or just don't have it happen again, etc. 

Anyways, that's all I have right now, as I said keep the tracks going and suggestions if you think you know what might have triggered it in your case.

Thanks. 

[Doughguy]

23 hours ago, NineLine said:

My other concern is I am not seeing this as a widespread issue, meaning its only a couple of people that have reported it, I know that doesn't mean its not happening to others and they just move on to another plane, or just don't have it happen again, etc. 

Thing is that the dora isnt the most popular plane atm. Most fly A8 or K4. I basically only fly the dora.

Yes, the bug appears randomly and not often, but sometimes it pops up in succession... which can be frustrating.

ill keep the tracks coming in.

[MAD-MM]

@NineLine can look over the most flawes away, DCS will be never perfect. But I can break the Engine in every Flight i conduct with MW50 continiously, so an engine is a absolute core thing of the WW2  FIghter modul absolut anoying.

I report this not since yesterday, to be precise for very long time now, but the things that changed is recently the Replays are working for some more as 20 min + multiplayer, can show something what was not possible before.

Next thing there is only handfull people that fly Dora, because it is difficult to fly and be succesfull. Even less people that are good in a Dora as Dogfighter where the Engine shows the lack of stability even more.

But didnt see tha label Dogfight is forbidden, so i will go ahead here in the future because i paid also 50 Euros then everyone else!

When would say for example you are testing allready the Dora can try to point in the right direction, but have my doubts that is even worth time to write here with my past expierence how the bugs are handled here in the WW2 Stuff.

The Trick is not to abuse the Engine, will only shortly spike the Temp not going above the Engine limit. The automatic Radiatorflap trys to hold the pressurised Coolant circuit at 100 degrees, they build it that way to minimise the Drag from the cooling system what is realy important for something that goes like 612kmh with a propeller.

Fiddeling around with manual controls in a dogfight from the radiator is slightly inconvenience nicley put, slows you down your planes at best is only a short solution

When you use ME50 suddenly the Oil Temp goes allready borderline upwards what should in it self not case even when you only level fly or dive for example.

Because Water from MW50 cools the Engine lowers combustion temperature with the higher boost should stay at the same Temperature and the RPM stays at he same 3250 RPM.

For succesfull dogfight in the DORA have to use your climb Power, in itself will present most of the time a series of slow high YoYos and loops.

Every time you go up the water radiator opens to hold the 100 Degree more or less, when you go down it closes again do the higher Airspeed and more airflow. The problem is the Oil that gets cooled over the Water circuit "without" any seperate oil cooler rises in temperature every time you send your plane upwards, does not dissipate at the same time so much heat as water when you go down.

After serious flying programm of high yoyos or loops the Oil goes way behind the redline and the Engine dies even when you have still some 100 Degree of Water Temperature.

Did open the Cooler Manual for brief moment in the Track below, can see how much it helped to lower the Oil Temp.

New Track is like 5 days ago, not even something special in track flying strait line with mw50 engine quits

 

WOLF_PACK_US_WWII_DYNAMIC_BASE_CAPTURE_v4.7.3U-20240218-085201.trk

[Doughguy]

Sort of makes sense. Gauges usually stay all in the norm. Broken oil temp gauge maybe? I usually fly it at 110 120 oil temp where the needle is in the bracket. Usually it also stays there during combat and lower with lower settings.

There is nothing i can read in that states faulty useage.

The one thing ive observed sometimes that right when the uproar sound appears and i shift my view upwards the cowlflaps are closed. And i did not touch them.

In my first track i was even flying pretty fast and at 2500 or lower. Temps good. Pushed it to past 3000. Clunk.

But what mad says sounds logical.

So either the oil gauge does read wrong or theres something wrong with the oil/water cooling...