Patch notes discussion 10th March - 12th April 2023

[Gunfreak]

1 minute ago, Mistermann said:

Ahhh - yet another reason for me to stay with "what's working" for me.   I've held off on switching to openxr for these types of reasons.

In my experience, I have never seen the "vr window" look good enough to record from.  I was under the impression that was the reason for OpenVR to begin with???

Regardless, I hope there's a fix for you.  I can't imagine losing the ability to record DCS sessions in OBS.  

 

If you put vr window to full screen it works great (except now thst its stretched 

[greco.bernardi]

6 hours ago, Hillman said:

The performance gains on complex missions are great in MT.Complex campaigns that stuttered are now butter smooth.  In simple missions it's more or less as ST for me (which was 60-90 fps anyways)

My problem is that it seems like something has changed wrgt the support for OculusVR runtime; I'm not able to run DCS/Pico4 with the Oculus runtime in the new MT-patch. In ST it works as before. In ST you get into Oculus runtime by starting the Virtual desktop streamer with dcs.exe as a param and you have DCS in Oculus runtime. Now the same forces you into OpenVR/SteamVR. The screen flicker like mad, I'm positioned several meters to high in the VR world and need to recenter, the performance is slightly lower, visual quality is not as good as before and when I exit DCS I'm left in this anoying Steam world which I then need to exit to get back to Windows. Everything worked so much nicer and with less hassel with OculusVR.

What has changed in MT? Could we please get a --force_OculusVR parameter?

Very happy for the MT, just that the user experience was a step back in this particular area.

PS: also tried with the force_OpenXR with the same results.

 

Same here... 

[Gierasimov]

20 hours ago, Foka said:

I think no one mentioned it, and for sure patch notes didn't mention that, but for me a huge change is... TGP! Now TGP renders view in 80 nm!

 

null

They did mention it: 

"Cockpit. MFD surface render increased from 80 to 150 km range"

[Heroman30]

15 hours ago, Tango3B said:

True, that was how it initially looked in my settings. My performance sucked at first, though. Then, I set it to this new setting (sorry, it´s german language, but you will get it, anyway). This improved performance significantly on my end...so yeah, I don´t know why but it helped me.

 

EDIT: Full Screen on does also yield some additional FPS for me. Bizarre, but true. Try it...

 

So if I check this box, would it cause any potential performance issues? 

[NIGHTHAWK1]

Mystery to me?   Using MT  i get the same FPS (180 in 2D, 72 in VR)  with DCS settings set to all of them as low as possible, or opposite - many of them set to high levels.  Any thoughts from the experts.   Oculus Quest 2, I9-12900K, RTX 3090,64 g ram.  Is my system max limited to FPS no matter what or do I have something set that limits FPS.  Yes, all 24 cores are active per Task Manager, using oculus tray tool, latest Nvidia drivers.  Any help would be appreciated.!!

[Wali763]

Just a brief feedback about my findings about MT. This morning I posted, that I dont see any difference MT on or off.

I now found some differences for me, but Im not sure, if MT is making it better for me.

My settings are directed at getting full 90fps in my G2 since AMD-GPUs and reprojection dont work well together IMO. So I only use 45% OpenXR resolution and most things set to low (except textures and visib range). Its a tradeoff between eyecandy (eg little shimmering) and smoothness. I prefer second. I have a 5800X3D and a RX6950XT.

So I guess Im mostly GPU-bound anyway. Usually when frametimes (either CPU or GPU) jump over ~10,5ms fps drop below 90 and I get visible stutter.

The difference for me in MT is, that in really CPU-heavy missions CPU-frametimes are better. They are almost the same as in smaller missions and hover around 10ms. Problem is, they often get spikes over 10,5ms, which causes stutter. GPU-frametimes mostly are around 9ms in my tested scenarios and no problem.

The problem is, that also in light missions I get those 10ms CPU-frametimes but far lesser spikes to 10,5+ms, whereas in non-MT I have lower CPU-frametimes between around 8ms in comparable situations. 

So in short it seems that MT in my case seems to level all CPU-frametimes around 10-10,5ms, now matter if a mission is big or light. But since those 10-10,5ms are close to my "stutter-threshold" and those stutters also happen, its not all good for me.

On the other side, I do have the feeling, that GPU-frametimes may have dropped by maybe 1ms. I did comparisons back and forth and Im pretty confident saying that. That allowed me to set ground-textures to high again without lowering fps.

So my overall finding is, that with my current CPU MT does not add much and differences are rather small. Only in heavy missions, that I usually dont fly anyway. 

I guess, if current CPU-frametimes would be a bit lower (like 9ms instead of 10ms), so spikes would not let fps drop below 90, Id be very happy with the update. But so my feelings are mixed and Im not sure, if I should go with MT or stay with non-MT.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Wali763

[jonfog]

Here are my findings so far. I've been running a PICO 4 VR headset (Virtual Desktop and Ethernet 2 USB-C) and using OpenXR Toolkit (via SteamVR) . When trying the new MT I found the picture somewhat unstable, every frame shifted slightly from the previous. Giving me a somewhat sick feeling.

It turned out to be the OpenXR Toolkit stuff. When I turned it off I got a stable picture in MT but running in ST with OpenXR Toolkit also worked fine.

By using the FOV settings etc in OpenXR Toolkit I actually get slightly higher frame rates than running SteamVR only in MT.  And the grapsh you se in the built in FPS counter are not jumping around as much in ST as in MT.

I've flown the Spitfire Operation Jubilee missions since these previosly more or less killed the Frame Rate when the action started at the French coast. It is much better now in ST too so I wonder if there been some code optimization that applies to both MT and ST. Maybe people are comparing the new MT code against the previous patch and not bothering to run the new patch in ST?

 

The "jumpiness" in the picture turned out to be any form of overlay in VR. I had the FPS counter on in OpenXR Toolkit and when I turned it off the jumpiness disappeared. I could repeat this with fpsVR too.

So now I'm quite happy.

Edited March 12, 2023 by jonfog

[BIGNEWY]

please if you are seeing an issue post here https://forum.dcs.world/forum/1144-multi-threading-bug-reports-temp/

Include your dcs log and dxdiag

anything else will get lost in this discussion thread 

thanks

[BIGNEWY]

1 hour ago, NIGHTHAWK1 said:

Mystery to me?   Using MT  i get the same FPS (180 in 2D, 72 in VR)  with DCS settings set to all of them as low as possible, or opposite - many of them set to high levels.  Any thoughts from the experts.   Oculus Quest 2, I9-12900K, RTX 3090,64 g ram.  Is my system max limited to FPS no matter what or do I have something set that limits FPS.  Yes, all 24 cores are active per Task Manager, using oculus tray tool, latest Nvidia drivers.  Any help would be appreciated.!!

make sure you have read the FAQ 
 

 

[BIGNEWY]

16 hours ago, Hotdognz said:

Just tried some other maps with MT after posting my initial thoughts and tried some heavey AI populated instant action missions, I now firmly believe I'm seeing no improvement in FPS in this first stage of the MT release on my rig, I can get better FPS my self by tweaking OpenXR Toolkit settings

Caucus CPU8.8/GPU 11.4
Syria    CPU8.8/GPU 13.4
Marianas CPU9.0/GPU 16.4
Channel CPU 8.8/16.5

Marianas still runs the worst as its the least optimized and has always run really bad even on a high end rig, Channel map whilst the CPU/GPU timings were similar felt smoother.

Looking forward to the next round, but so glad I upgraded to the 4090 still

Your results seem very strange 

I would suggest you make your own thread here https://forum.dcs.world/forum/1144-multi-threading-bug-reports-temp/

include your dcs log,
your dxdiag
a screenshot of your dcs setting
screenshots of your nvidia control panel settings 

we can take a closer look

thanks

[NIGHTHAWK1]

Yes i have read the FAQ, i have started DCS both from steam UI and from the new DCS-exe from bin-mt, also DCS.exe--forceVR.   Nothing changes the FPS.  Notice I am getting MT to work, but I do not see changes if DCS settings go from real low to real high.  Maybe that is just how good MT is but, I would think I would get much higher FPS with very low DCS settings, maybe I am wrong.  Not complaining, MT is fantastic.  Just wondering if I can get even higher FPS.  I have set all my Quest2 settings to max FPS also.

Edited March 11, 2023 by NIGHTHAWK1

[BIGNEWY]

12 minutes ago, NIGHTHAWK1 said:

Yes i have read the FAQ, i have started DCS both from steam UI and from the new DCS-exe from bin-mt, also DCS.exe--forceVR.   Nothing changes the FPS.  Notice I am getting MT to work, but I do not see changes if DCS settings go from real low to real high.  Maybe that is just how good MT is but, I would think I would get much higher FPS with very low DCS settings, maybe I am wrong.  Not complaining, MT is fantastic.  Just wondering if I can get even higher FPS.  I have set all my Quest2 settings to max FPS also.

 

Thanks for the kind words good to hear you think it is fantastic. 
We mention in the FAQ some may not see FPS improvement or will only notice improvement in busy missions, it very much depends on system spec and settings, and if you have cpu or gpu bottleneck. 

[Rosebud47]

@BIGNEWY Heatblur recently mentioned, that their F-14 Tomcat module was adjusted to MT processing, does that mean, that MT is currently implemented into the EDGE core code only and we will see further improvements in performance, when the module´s codes are adjusted to MT? Will the map´s performance also benefit from MT, if the map´s codes are adjusted to MT?

Thanks in advanced!

 

[HansPeter1981]

 

• Fixed excessive amount of triangles and objects when terrain objects shadows set to FLAT/OFF
   
• Cockpit. MFD surface render increased from 80 to 150 km range

Hello,

Wonderful to see the Multi-threat development in Action and I think I can say the stability of frames increased quite a bit.
My Biggest Problem which I had since 2.8??? did unfortunately not disappear.

The massive tax in performance when the Mirrors or MFD(i.e. Targeting Pod) show heavily treed areas.

i.e in Mi-8 or Ka-50 doing low level flights. With Flat angles the Mirrors/MFDs display a massive range of Forest and my capped 60 FPS@4k with 80% GPU  Utilization go to i.e 48 or less FPS with GPU being maxed out. As soon as you turn Mirrors or MFDs off you get back to high frames, moderate Utilization. Having the Trees front left right and center is only a marginal impact on performance with usually remaining at 60fps. But as soon as they are rendered in MFDs / Mirrors its a massive tax on the system.

So was hoping to have it fixed with the excessive triangles thing... maybe the increased render range made up for it or the problem seems to be buried somewhere else. 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by HansPeter1981

[BIGNEWY]

21 minutes ago, HansPeter1981 said:

 

• Fixed excessive amount of triangles and objects when terrain objects shadows set to FLAT/OFF
   
• Cockpit. MFD surface render increased from 80 to 150 km range

Hello,

Wonderful to see the Multi-threat development in Action and I think I can say the stability of frames increased quite a bit.
My Biggest Problem which I had since 2.8??? did unfortunately not disappear.

The massive tax in performance when the Mirrors or MFD(i.e. Targeting Pod) show heavily treed areas.

i.e in Mi-8 or Ka-50 doing low level flights. With Flat angles the Mirrors/MFDs display a massive range of Forest and my capped 60 FPS@4k with 80% GPU  Utilization go to i.e 48 or less FPS with GPU being maxed out. As soon as you turn Mirrors or MFDs off you get back to high frames, moderate Utilization. Having the Trees front left right and center is only a marginal impact on performance with usually remaining at 60fps. But as soon as they are rendered in MFDs / Mirrors its a massive tax on the system.

So was hoping to have it fixed with the excessive triangles thing... maybe the increased render range made up for it or the problem seems to be buried somewhere else. 

 

 

try lowering visibility range setting
dont use every frame for cockpit displays
see if it helps

[Markus Letto Letifer]

Big Kudos to ED and the Devs.

I've been flying for a few hours now and I can say with a straight face, that even with the reported bugs, this has been the best patch to a sim/game in a very long time.

100% gains in performance!

Game Changer!

Set the mission designers loose!

TY guys

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Markus Letto Letifer

[Mike145]

Big thank you to the ED team,

I was a bit worried that my modest rig would not fair well with the update, usually didn't.

What a nice surprise when I got it to work (open from steam web page) 10+ FPS and seems a little smoother.

Only play single player and pancake.

good times  

 

[shrimpy_dikdik]

Not seen any improvement with a G2 5950x 3090 64GB system. Cpu frame times have halved (roughly) but even on complex missions I have always only been GPU bound so MT hasn't improved my FPS.  Using openxr with FPS ranging from 35-55. 

[Tophatter14]

Edit - never mind!  

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Tophatter14
Non-issue. User is a dolt LOL

[Full Refund]

I'm just dropping in to say THANK YOU to the ED Team.  I play exclusively in VR on a Pimax 8kx (Steam version) and saw an immediate 30% FPS increase.  It ran well before but now it's super smooth.  

Totally empathize with anyone still troubleshooting - I've been there. 

[JIGGAwest]

13 hours ago, Wali763 said:

Im on a 5800x3D CPU in OpenXR.

I dont see any improvement. Im using the frametime-overlay in the MS OpenXRTools and it seems CPU frametimes have gone up. I tested a large InstantActionMission with max units back and forth and CPU-frametimes are now mostly at 10,5 whereas before I saw lower numbers. Looking at the Taskmanager-performance tab in Non-MT I have at least 5-6 threads at idle, while in MT all seem to get used somehow. But ony thread is always at the max. Also the other mission I tested showed the same result. Anyway I also dont feel any difference when not looking at the numbers.

The biggest difference for me is visible when jumping into a cockpit. With MT on it now takes 5-10sec to fully load the image. So at first you hoover over the sea and have only the frame of the cockpit with no textures before you. In non-MT I did see this almost never, maybe only on very large MP-missions.

Also the lobby (hangar-floor) has a red tint now, but thats no problem. Colors in the cockpit look the same.

Maybe not directly related to just MT.

But, curious if you have the latest:

Ryzen master

Chipset drivers

Motherboard BIOS

- windows game mode on

- xbox game bar active

[TheKardinal]

For me the MT works very well. Reverb G2, 4090RTX, 64GB, i9900k OpenXR. Instant increase from what was 40-45 fps average to about 65-70fps average. It’s only been a day, so probably more to learn but at one point I had 80fps in the harrier over Iran in a liberation mission that I was using the same computer to host as a server for me and a couple of mates. Utterly amazing - whole experience was phenomenal.

I hope that that others with issues can resolve them. I see some with similar specs to me can still not see such gains as me.  I am lucky, I don’t know why it works so well for me - I have graphics setting that include good levels of detail so, these figures are not achieved because I run DCS on minimums, because I don’t - it looks and ‘feels’ amazing in comparison to single thread. Thank you ED and am sure you will work to optimise MT for those who need to - it has got to be the  way ahead. I just wanted to say thanks for this important leap forward. 

[Hillman]

@BIGNEWY Have you removed/changed the support for Oculus VR runtime in MT? In ST I get this runtime as previously, but in MT I now get the OpenVR runtime which does not work as good for me as the Oculus. Please add a —forceOculusVR param.

BTW: MT is really great and complex campaigns that were unplayable in VR runs smooth now.

[Hillman]

F-18 Hornet issue, does anybody else have observe this:

Start DCS fresh, open a F-18 mission. The VR hand controllers tries to grab the joystick even if this is ticked off in the VR options. (Extremely annoying as it’s easy to push the grab button when it’s in your lap)
Going into options, check and then un-check the option solves the problem. Looks like a minor bug.

[BIGNEWY]

1 hour ago, Hillman said:

@BIGNEWY Have you removed/changed the support for Oculus VR runtime in MT? In ST I get this runtime as previously, but in MT I now get the OpenVR runtime which does not work as good for me as the Oculus. Please add a —forceOculusVR param.

BTW: MT is really great and complex campaigns that were unplayable in VR runs smooth now.

It should work, oculus is even in the priority chain for MT with OpenXR next in line

I am not a fan of having to force parameters, in my opinion we do to much of it and it complicates matters for users who are not tech savvy. 

but good to hear its smooth for you