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Posted
58 minutes ago, Sarge55 said:

Oops... Here I thought you were being humorous.  Rats, I'll never get the knack of internet humor. 

Ha, it was half-joke, half-serious, so you're good! Because of this thread, I practiced tanking over the weekend a bit, thinking maybe I wasn't giving it a fair chance. Admittedly, most of my experience air-to-air refueling in DCS has been in the Hornet and Tomcat, so off of the basket rather than the boom.

After giving it another shot, here's the thing: I'm a private pilot and aircraft owner, and while I don't have experience refueling in real-life, I can attest that there are many things that DCS makes "harder" than real-life, and formation flying is a great example. It is my belief that A2A refueling is one of these things, and that seems to be echoed by actual fighter pilots who have tried refueling on DCS. Some have even said that it is significantly more difficult in DCS than in real-life. 

At the end of the day, to each their own... if some people enjoy it, good on them; I for one think it is excessive punishment given the imperfections in the modeling.

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  • 1 month later...
Posted

After flying the F-15E for a while and alot of struggling with the AAR in the strike eagle i suddenly found it very easy to refuel the viper. So want to get better in viper AAR: Get the strike eagle 😉😁

Posted

Practice makes it better, simple as that, stop crying and practice.

On 6/5/2023 at 8:29 PM, davidrbarnette said:

After giving it another shot, here's the thing: I'm a private pilot and aircraft owner, and while I don't have experience refueling in real-life, I can attest that there are many things that DCS makes "harder" than real-life, and formation flying is a great example. It is my belief that A2A refueling is one of these things, and that seems to be echoed by actual fighter pilots who have tried refueling on DCS. Some have even said that it is significantly more difficult in DCS than in real-life. 

Yeah, because in real life you can actually feel that aircraft movement, in DCS we don't get that feeling, so it makes it harder simply by the fact that when you focus on those lights you can't notice your mowing up or down, left or right, but with practice you learn to notice that too, and in turn it becomes easier with practice. Formation flying is also good practice for AAR.

Eventually we will get boom/basket psychics too;)

  • Like 2
Posted
Am 23.7.2023 um 08:04 schrieb razorseal:

I have given up on a2a refuel so long ago. I just cant do it lol. 

 

I just make sure to bring lots of fuel with me lol

Just practice formation flying! Once you can maintain fingertip/ parade on a reasonably stable lead without breaking a sweat, you'll find AAR to be much easier. After all, air-to-air refueling is formation flying. 

  • Like 2
Posted
On 7/17/2023 at 11:53 PM, Furiz said:

Practice makes it better, simple as that, stop crying and practice.

Yeah, because in real life you can actually feel that aircraft movement, in DCS we don't get that feeling, so it makes it harder simply by the fact that when you focus on those lights you can't notice your mowing up or down, left or right, but with practice you learn to notice that too, and in turn it becomes easier with practice. Formation flying is also good practice for AAR.

Eventually we will get boom/basket psychics too;)

I think the main problem with the boom A2A refuelling in DCS is that the boom/boom operator isnt realistic. Like several real pilots say that once the boom is is. It's quite easy as the boom doesn't just "fall out" and the connection is easier as the boom has more freedom to  move and the boom operator will guide it in much more.

I think if they fix those things it will be easier to boom refuel.

That said, even with that I wouldn't be able to refuel with the Viper.  As I'm not even close. I can not get the hang of my Winwing hotas. 

It took me 20 minutes of practice to do my first air to air refuelling in the F18(a plane I never fly) while the F16, my main modern fighter probably my second most flown modual after Spitfire. I can't even get close even with several hours of practice spread over weeks. So I've just given up.

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i7 13700k @5.2ghz, GTX 5090 OC, 128Gig ram 4800mhz DDR5, M2 drive.

Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

while the F16, my main modern fighter probably my second most flown modual after Spitfire. I can't even get close even with several hours of practice spread over weeks. So I've just given up.

The problem with F-16 is that it has some built in deadzone that we cant remove, you can see that with RCtrl + Enter, when that input window appears, while the stick moves and input registers the aircraft doesn't respond until more stick is applied. That is creating confusion with users since most of us use PC sticks and Viper simulation is really made for force feedback (which is correct) and that makes it even harder to AAR in the F-16.

I think ED should adjust that and consider the fact that most of us fly with PC sticks not with force feedback sticks, maybe they can create some input options like Apache has.

Edited by Furiz
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Posted
36 minutes ago, Furiz said:

The problem with F-16 is that it has some built in deadzone that we cant remove, you can see that with RCtrl + Enter, when that input window appears, while the stick moves and input registers the aircraft doesn't respond until more stick is applied. That is creating confusion with users since most of us use PC sticks and Viper simulation is really made for force feedback (which is correct) and that makes it even harder to AAR in the F-16.

I think ED should adjust that and consider the fact that most of us fly with PC sticks not with force feedback sticks, maybe they can create some input options like Apache has.

 

Viper stick is not made for force feedback but force sensing. Which is what my winwing is and I had made me a far worse Viper pilot. I was mabye 80% there for refuelling when using my f18 centre stick. But after changing to the FSSB stick. I'm never close than 50%  I've not found any setting on the FSSB stick that let's me do controlled small movements needed for formation or refuelling. I can control it enough for fighting, landing and take off.  But that's it.

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i7 13700k @5.2ghz, GTX 5090 OC, 128Gig ram 4800mhz DDR5, M2 drive.

Posted (edited)

thats funny, i dont share this feeling about force sensing. moved from a VKB stick over to RS FSSB and the feeling of the jet was instantly better (more responsive, "snappier", instantaneous reaction to input...). tanking too felt a lot better as the jet reacted better to very small inputs and immediately stopped when no input is made. 

on the VKB i always felt my inputs are a little "delayed" compared to what they are with the current joystick.
there does seem to be some "deadzone" for joysticks that are not force sensing. this can be an issue when refuelling


hope ED can implement something down the line in the special options that would allow the player to choose the type of stick used.. this however might mean creating a second flight model in order to not worsen the situation for the people that do have force sensing sticks and thats a lot of work.

Edited by Moonshine
  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

thats funny, i dont share this feeling about force sensing. moved from a VKB stick over to RS FSSB and the feeling of the jet was instantly better (more responsive, "snappier", instantaneous reaction to input...). tanking too felt a lot better as the jet reacted better to very small inputs and immediately stopped when no input is made. 

on the VKB i always felt my inputs are a little "delayed" compared to what they are with the current joystick.
there does seem to be some "deadzone" for joysticks that are not force sensing. this can be an issue when refuelling


hope ED can implement something down the line in the special options that would allow the player to choose the type of stick used.. this however might mean creating a second flight model in order to not worsen the situation for the people that do have force sensing sticks and thats a lot of work.

 

My FSSB has just been a pain. Cool toy. But made me much worse.

My plane is always untrimmed and I can not get it trimmed. Depending on the settings its either so sensitive that I can't even hold it without it going all over the place. Or if I put up the force I have use lots of power just to move th nose a few degrees. 

i7 13700k @5.2ghz, GTX 5090 OC, 128Gig ram 4800mhz DDR5, M2 drive.

Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Viper stick is not made for force feedback but force sensing.

You are correct, I used wrong term.

Anyways my point stands, I think F-16 flight controls are better suited for FSSB sticks than for regular PC sticks. I can't argue about skills and practice done to achieve something. I did AAR with regular PC stick after lots of practice and formation flying, and I'm not some demi-god or whatever, just a normal person, so AAR in F-16 is doable.

Is it harder than it should be?, that's the real question, by the statements of pilots that have done it in real life and in DCS they say it is harder in DCS. We can't feel G forces or the aircraft movement and ED can't simulate that so that is one limitation we have to adjust for.

But that built-in input deazone is something that is not helping normal stick users (I can't speak for FSSB, since I don't have it), and it would be easier if we could have option to have that removed.

Edited by Furiz
Posted
23 hours ago, Furiz said:

The problem with F-16 is that it has some built in deadzone that we cant remove, you can see that with RCtrl + Enter, when that input window appears, while the stick moves and input registers the aircraft doesn't respond until more stick is applied. That is creating confusion with users since most of us use PC sticks and Viper simulation is really made for force feedback (which is correct) and that makes it even harder to AAR in the F-16.

I think ED should adjust that and consider the fact that most of us fly with PC sticks not with force feedback sticks, maybe they can create some input options like Apache has.

 

I have VKB Gunfighrt Mk3, and I got no problem what so ever with anykind of deadzone (make sure you don't have any deadzones or curves set for the X and Y axis in contols - remove all). I think A2A refueling has become easy for my self in F-16, specially compared to the airplanes which have the refueling probe on the side (like F-15E, F/A-18, Jeff and so on). But I am sure I lack practice, which I have plenty with F-16. So practice, practice and more practice. 

Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2023 at 7:14 PM, twistking said:

thanks for all the replies. 🙏
i think my main problem was that i thought having the green lights was enough. i was still wobbling (within the margin) though. yesterday i managed to minimize the wobble, was patient enough for the boom to finally connect and got several thousands pounds of gas before disconnecting. disconnect was accidental still, but i think i'm slowly getting there nevertheless.

I assume you already figured out how to "crosslink" what the two rows of refueling guidance lights tell you to do with your left and right hand to achieve proper positioning (left row is commanding your right hand, and right row is commanding your left hand)?

Edited by Razor18
Posted
4 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

I have VKB Gunfighrt Mk3, and I got no problem what so ever with anykind of deadzone (make sure you don't have any deadzones or curves set for the X and Y axis in contols - remove all). I think A2A refueling has become easy for my self in F-16, specially compared to the airplanes which have the refueling probe on the side (like F-15E, F/A-18, Jeff and so on). But I am sure I lack practice, which I have plenty with F-16. So practice, practice and more practice. 

Oh wow you completely don't know what I'm talking about or you didn't bother to read. I don't have any deadzones on pitch and roll.

You can see the deadzone in this video and if you press RCTRL + Enter you can se it too as I already said.

https://forum.dcs.world/uploads/monthly_2023_04/F-16C.mp4.258983731612b59189381abcc43ba549.mp4

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Posted (edited)

Furiz is right, i too moved from a vkb gunfighter mk3 (i have full linear axis settings, no deadzones whatsoever) to a realsimulator base and stick.

I was by the impression that my vkb was very good yet as soon as i started using the RS setup i immediately noticed just how much better (less sluggish, no more delay caused by artificial deadzones) the force sensing stick is.

 

now to not stray too far off of the topic here, i believe it does make a difference for aerial refuelling as due to the described „deadzone“ or „input delay“, you are always „chasing“ the proper position on the tanker and are always reactive instead of proactive, which might make the difference in staying connected or causing an unwanted disconnect due to overcorrection. 

Edited by Moonshine
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Posted
On 7/26/2023 at 10:05 AM, Gunfreak said:

My FSSB has just been a pain. Cool toy. But made me much worse.

My plane is always untrimmed and I can not get it trimmed. Depending on the settings its either so sensitive that I can't even hold it without it going all over the place. Or if I put up the force I have use lots of power just to move th nose a few degrees. 

The Viper trims it self to 1G, so no need to trim it. If you feel the need to trim, something else is wrong. 🤷🏼‍♂️

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Posted
28 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

The Viper trims it self to 1G, so no need to trim it. If you feel the need to trim, something else is wrong. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I know that's the problem.

Any air start and the plane lists to the right. And manual trim never seems to get it trimmed out.

I've checked all axis on game,  I've calibrated and recalibrated the axis in the winwing software (not that it ever showed anything wrong) it's been like that since I got it(two windows/DCS reinstalls ago) I've opened the base and nothing is wrong there) it starts untrimmed and won't be trimmed manually to neutral. 

i7 13700k @5.2ghz, GTX 5090 OC, 128Gig ram 4800mhz DDR5, M2 drive.

Posted
On 7/26/2023 at 2:17 PM, Furiz said:

I think F-16 flight controls are better suited for FSSB sticks than for regular PC sticks.

Yes and you can't fault ED for that: they model the DCS: F-16C flight model after the real thing, regardless of what PC hardware is like. It will just be and stay a pain in the behind for those who don't have a R3L (or similar).

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Posted
34 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I know that's the problem.

Any air start and the plane lists to the right. And manual trim never seems to get it trimmed out.

I've checked all axis on game,  I've calibrated and recalibrated the axis in the winwing software (not that it ever showed anything wrong) it's been like that since I got it(two windows/DCS reinstalls ago) I've opened the base and nothing is wrong there) it starts untrimmed and won't be trimmed manually to neutral. 

plane does roll right when a TGP is equipped as the TGP is on the right cheekstation. you can balance it out somewhat by also adding a HTS to the left cheekstation but its still not equal, so you will have to trim a little to the left.

however it doesnt roll right when your jet has balanced loadouts (mostly when not having any pods at all)

best way to try it out is a no wind mission (to avoid crosswind) and clean loadout. if the jet still rolls, then surely its not the planes fault

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Posted
51 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I know that's the problem.

Any air start and the plane lists to the right. And manual trim never seems to get it trimmed out.

I've checked all axis on game,  I've calibrated and recalibrated the axis in the winwing software (not that it ever showed anything wrong) it's been like that since I got it(two windows/DCS reinstalls ago) I've opened the base and nothing is wrong there) it starts untrimmed and won't be trimmed manually to neutral. 

That's a bummer. Did you try the calibration thingy in the SimAppPro or what it's called? Think @MustangSally made some instructions somewhere. You have the force sensing package, right?

In the included QS refueling in Caucasus or The Gulf, I don't trim at all. Air start with balanced stores.

Hopw you sort it, as I was thinking of getting it, or a RealSim one. 

Posted
2 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Yes and you can't fault ED for that: they model the DCS: F-16C flight model after the real thing, regardless of what PC hardware is like. It will just be and stay a pain in the behind for those who don't have a R3L (or similar).

I don't blame them for that, its like in the real thing, not their fault.

But this is one specific issue for most F-16 users in DCS, they have really hard time with precision flying cause of that built in dead zone. So it would be great if normal PC stick users could have the option to remove the dead zone, you can't expect everyone to buy 500€ base + stick (no idea about price) to be able to have proper experience when it can be simulated just as well for normal PC stick users.

Look at the Apache for example, they have 3 different trimmer modes for normal stick and for FFB, why can't we have something like that, in regards to that dead zone, for Viper as well.

AAR is doable with PC stick off course but with much pain and false difficulty, which makes this simulation not realistic if you use normal PC stick.

  • Like 2
Posted
On 7/29/2023 at 12:47 PM, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Yes and you can't fault ED for that: they model the DCS: F-16C flight model after the real thing, regardless of what PC hardware is like. It will just be and stay a pain in the behind for those who don't have a R3L (or similar).

 Considering that ED has a history of providing options to compensate for the difference between real-life and common flight sim controls, providing a option to get rid of the deadzone is perfectly logical and I would even go as far as to say it is absolutely necessary. That way, the minority of players that have high-end force sensing setups can get what they want and the majority who don't can actually enjoy the module fully as well. 

 There is really no logical reason not to provide such an option considering that it just isn't reasonable to expect everyone to buy a rather uncommon force sensing stick base just to get rid of that obtrusive deadzone. DCS already places a lot of demands on players when it comes to buying equipment, there is no need to add another layer to that. 

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  • 2 months later...
Posted

Hi guys. Regarding this topic, and now that i have really good controls to play... It seems clear to me that AAR, with the Viper, has this problem where there is an air hole or well right behind the tanker, surely someone else has noticed this??

nullimage.png

I fly behind the tanker straight and level, getting slowly closer to the boom, then when i'm about some good feet away from it, the aircraft start going down and accelerates by itself, which seems to me, shows the presence of some form of air "hole/well".

Other times the aircraft seems to want to go up.. and up.

It makes connecting very hard.

Also, after connecting, the plane wants to go down and lose speed, but not as dramatic.

In the real world, pilots describe after connection, the boom pulling a bit the airplane around, which should be the opposite of what happens in DCS !

I fly with wake turbulence on, by the way, but i'm not so sure this is the problem. I think i always noticed those things even without wake turbulence

AAR problem 01.png

  • 1 year later...
Posted

Hi,

exactly the same thing for me, after hours of fruitless trials with a Warthog Joystick, I managed to stabilize myself well behind the tanker, but once in the perimeter of the boom there was no way to stabilize vertically. 
And then, bizarrely, I turned off the wake turbulence, and the second attempt was the good one : I totally refilled the tank with just 2 small disconnections, but I got to the end when I'd never been able to for months...
Reassure me, all those youtube refueling tutorial videos, which look super stable and controlled, they've deactivated those damned turbulences without saying so, haven't they ?😉
Well, now I'll keep practicing to make sure it wasn't just beginner's luck!

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

Trying last night with the A-10CII on a KC-135. at one point before pre-contact position the jet rolls sharply to the right into a ca. 80 deg bank attitude. And that's it. seems an odd behavior for wake turbulence.

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