VR MT - OpenXR - OpenVR - SteamVR

[Gryzor]

SteamVr - Cause I use Valve Index. FPS are better even in ST. Its very bugged with current DCS MT version (L eye some objects not rendering, night anomalies also, night colour banding...).

[ricktoberfest]

11 hours ago, mbucchia said:

Oculus mode (OVR) is now deprecated, and even Oculus themselves don't want developers to keep using it. I would not expect anyone in 2023 to keep writing/maintaining support for Oculus mode in their app. ED is doing the right thing here.

If you have issues with OpenXR and the Oculus runtime (or perhaps Virtual Desktop), you need to report them to Oculus or to GGodin, this is the only way things can be improved. My 2c.

That's too bad, just tried OpenXR again today after a BIOS update and the Oculus runtime runs about 10-20% faster on my computer than the OpenXR, in addition to being more stable in tracking

[BIGNEWY]

6 hours ago, Gryzor said:

SteamVr - Cause I use Valve Index. FPS are better even in ST. Its very bugged with current DCS MT version (L eye some objects not rendering, night anomalies also, night colour banding...).

I have reported the night light issues in the left eye. 

[Dangerzone]

I'm confused by the poll.

Is this a question about:

- what you'd like to use? (ie - what interface you like the most), or

- what you have to use to get the best performance for your headset (ie, some are best to use OpenXR because that's all that will give them decent performance, others have headsets native to steam, so they will probably go with something that gives better performance with steam), or

Because from my perspective it seems like the answer for each person will be dependent on what headset they have and what gives them the best performance. I was running SteamVR on a G2 up until I'm guessing a year or so ago where I almost gave up on VR and came across OpenXR which literally saved DCS. I didn't use OpenXR because I wanted to - it was a necessity. 

As such - it seems like it's more a popularity contest on which headsets are the most popular?  (Although I admit - I am still confused about VR implementation even after using it for years so it's probably my confusion and not the poll?)

[WipeUout]

OpenXR going forward.  the combination OpenXR  + OXRTK offers all the settings required to adjust quality and performance in most scenarios.

For me it is a significant gain over SteamVR in both GPU and CPU frametime which allows 90FPS in most scenarios.

Edited June 1, 2023 by WipeUout

[flyingcyrus]

Oddly, I get the best performance with SteamVR using OpenXR API. I ran some test with WMR / OpenXR / OXRTK, at same definition (130% supersampling of the native 2160x2160 Reverb's screens) and FPS drop is around 20% ! 

Did anyone else experience such a strange and counter intuitive behaviour ?

[Hartsblade]

Made a mistake taking the poll. Accidentally clicked OpenXR when I should have picked SteamVR OpenXR.

I'm an Index user.

[actually_fred]

OpenXR API regardless of which vendor's implementation (runtime) is used for it.

OpenXR is the future; Meta, Microsoft, and Valve all encourage it over their native APIs. Meta and Valve have both said new features will only be supported via OpenXR. Any headset vendor who advocates any other SDK is stuck in the past, and likely trying to minimize the cost of ticking the 'we support PCVR' box. I don't think ED should be picking up this development cost for them. When a vendor supports OpenXR but DCS has bugs or lower performance with OpenXR, you should report the bug to the vendor, not expect ED to make a significant investment and long-term maintenance commitment to paper over the issue, especially as it's either a short-term issue, or the vendor bluntly does not care about PCVR. This doesn't apply to SteamVR-native headsets, as OpenXR is now the recommended game development API for SteamVR. ED should not take time away from improving the game and modules to implement and support obsolete technologies.

Vendor support - pro OpenXR:

• Oculus API (a.k.a. libovr): Meta recommend using OpenXR instead. The Oculus API is discouraged by Meta since July 2021, unsupported by Meta since August 2022: https://developer.oculus.com/blog/oculus-all-in-on-openxr-deprecates-proprietary-apis , and have announced all new features will only be supported via OpenXR
• OpenVR (a.k.a. SteamVR API): Valve recommend using OpenXR instead since June 2020: https://steamcommunity.com/games/250820/announcements/detail/2522527900755718764, and have announced all new features will only be supported via OpenXR
• Windows Holographic API (a.k.a. WMR API): Microsoft recommend using OpenXR instead and the WinRT-based Windows Holographic API is marked as 'Legacy'. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/mixed-reality/develop/native/getting-a-holographicspace 
• HTC Vive Wave SDK: this is only for standalone (android) headsets. OpenXR is HTC’s only documented PCVR SDK. Old headsets (e.g. the original Vive) require SteamVR, so also support OpenVR.

Vendor support - neutral:

• Varjo SDK: they fully support OpenXR, but don't appear to encourage or discourage it over the Varjo SDK

Vendor support: work in progress:

• Pimax's "XR SDK" (not the same thing as 'PimaxXR'): officially they don't support OpenXR yet except via SteamVR, however most of their recent news articles/tutorials that feature PCVR use the third-party PimaxXR (sometimes with OpenComposite). IMO OpenXR via PimaxXR feels 'unofficially preferred' for Pimax PCVR. Despite this, I'm putting it in 'work in progress' given the stance on their developer docs. It's also worth noting that DCS does not/has not ever supported the Pimax XR SDK directly. https://developer.pimax.com/document/faq/#does-pimax-pc-vr-devices-5k-8k-etc-support-openxr-sdk
• Pico. OpenXR is only supported via SteamVR, or for standalone; apparently their customer support have claimed that OpenXR support is expected in streaming assistant by the end of the year: https://www.reddit.com/r/PicoXR/comments/11g4827/openxr_runtime/

• Virtual Desktop: OpenXR is only supported via SteamVR; other APIs have better support.

I don't think there's a true 'negative' category here in terms of the (hopefully near) future, though 'work in progress' is negative in current state.

Edited June 4, 2023 by actually_fred
added HTC

[kerlcat]

OpenXR as it seems to deliver the best performance for me.

[Joch1955]

Open XR w. G2, works great here.

I always had issues w. SteamVR or OpenVR, so have no plan to go back to them.

[ldl01031]

I don't know if this is the right place to say this (I did poke around first), but I just wanted to share my experience. I had an RTX 3090 Ti and an i9-12900. With most options turned up, I was getting low 30's (FPS). I really wanted to see what DCS could do, so I just upgraded (RTX 4090 and i9-13900). Way better, into the 40's.

But using fpsVR, I could see I was still CPU bound, at least some of the time - like on the ground. Then I remembered seeing that multithreading was coming, so I thought I'd try it out.

OMG! Now, with all settings maxed out (using MSAA 4x and Anisotropic 16x - the other anti-aliasing options didn't look as good - if anyone has suggestions, please let me know), and MT of course, I'm getting 6o+ FPS. So gratifying, given all the $$ I shelled out.

I should mention this is using a Pimax 8KX.

However, when I switched back from Steam VR to PimaxVR and OpenXR (via OpenComposite), DCS wouldn't start (it would hang while displaying the clouds 'loading' screen). But I'm quite fuzzy on the various XR optoins. Am I correct in saying PimaxVR and OpenXR (via OpenComposite)?

Also, I noticed the in-app FPS display freaks out a bit - it continuously flashes "CPU Bound (rendering a thread)" (or something very close to that). It doesn't seem to hurt anything, just a little annoying to look at. Do others see that?

[biotech]

will ever reshade support in openXR? universal reshade mod was brilliant, but it not work in OXR

[Hillman]

With the Pico 4 and VD I find the Oculus runtime slightly more performant. What's more important though is that OpenXR places me at the wrong position (ca 1.5 meters too high) This can easily be corrected, but annoying still. Maybe issues with my PC, but don't know where to look.
Also when exiting DCS I'm back in SteamVR world which again I need to exit to get back to Windows. Also annoying as I have nothing to do in that VR world...

>If you have issues with OpenXR and the Oculus runtime (or perhaps Virtual Desktop), you need to report them to Oculus or to GGodin,
I fully support OpenXR being the way forward. Unfortunately reaching out to VD or Pico/Bytelab resulted in no response for me...

[Lange_666]

5 hours ago, Hillman said:

What's more important though is that OpenXR places me at the wrong position (ca 1.5 meters too high) This can easily be corrected, but annoying still. Maybe issues with my PC, but don't know where to look.

I had the same when OpenXR was used as runtime. With Oculus or OpenVR it was always correct. Besides re-centering i didn't found any solution.

[Tom28]

OpenXR with a Windows MR Lenovo Explorer.

[crazyave]

MT has massive stuttering making it feel like 10-20fps (even though the counters show 80-90fps and 7-10ms, it's totally wrong) and causing nausea.  I'm on a 13900k and 4090, so it's not my system.  I run very low settings.  70% understampled and med or less settings all else.

No one has come up with any suggestions that have led to a solution or explanation.  I have a clean install with no mods.  ST also works great, no stutters, very smooth, same settings.

SteamVR also allows you to run SteamVR apps with DCS running at the same time, that's huge!  I cannot get Steam VR to run DCS with OpenXR, it just crashes loading.

[WeCantAllBeNavy]

I meant to pick steamvr-openxr but picked openxr.

12900ks-4090-6000mhz32mb-varjo aero using max res no foveated no vsync

It seemed like launching in openxr a few weeks ago was massively better performance in MT.  Like 50% more frames up from 50s to 75/80.  Then a patch hit and it wouldn't launch to vr anymore and I haven't been back - think i'm gonna try tomorrow to check out Sinai.

On 5/31/2023 at 6:49 AM, unlikely_spider said:

Weird. I have a G2 and a 4080 and SteamVR gets me better performance. I can't even run MSFS that well due to its OpenXR requirement. In DCS and MSFS I get bad stuttery double vision with OpenXR, even down to 70% resolution. In Steam I can run it at 90%.

Any PMs that can help me would be appreciated, to keep this thread uncluttered!

 

Some others in this thread talking about massive stuttering in openxr it was one of the graphics settings in game that was doing it I am sorry I am terrible no help I forgot which one but I was able to clear that, do process of elimination in halves - you'll find it.  I feel like it might have been AA, clouds, or water, but i may be lying

[unlikely_spider]

8 minutes ago, WeCantAllBeNavy said:

Some others in this thread talking about massive stuttering in openxr it was one of the graphics settings in game that was doing it I am sorry I am terrible no help I forgot which one but I was able to clear that, do process of elimination in halves - you'll find it.  I feel like it might have been AA, clouds, or water, but i may be lying

Ok, please let me know if you happen to remember

[Werewolf_fs]

hace 8 horas, crazyave dijo:

MT has massive stuttering making it feel like 10-20fps (even though the counters show 80-90fps and 7-10ms, it's totally wrong) and causing nausea.  I'm on a 13900k and 4090, so it's not my system.  I run very low settings.  70% understampled and med or less settings all else.

No one has come up with any suggestions that have led to a solution or explanation.  I have a clean install with no mods.  ST also works great, no stutters, very smooth, same settings.

SteamVR also allows you to run SteamVR apps with DCS running at the same time, that's huge!  I cannot get Steam VR to run DCS with OpenXR, it just crashes loading.

I had this same problem with my 12900K and 13900K with G2 and Q Pro in MT, associated with the use or not Reprojection /ASW and had two origins:

- In MT, sometimes DCS charges 100% only one of the P cores, is this happens = suttering. To solve it you are going to establish affinity for DCS ( in task manager, dcs.exe ---> go to details ---> Establish affinity) and uncheck the ALL CORES option, check it again and accept, now there is no single P core with 100% load.

- Motherboard / graphics management software, in this case GIGABYTE CONTROL CENTER (especially old version 2.0). Closing this software eliminates the problem. I don't know if the same thing happens with other types MSI, Asus ect... but it is possibly advisable to close this type of software due to some type of problem.

With this I have solved my sutteers and performance problems in MT with the new intel hybrids

Edited June 10, 2023 by Werewolf_fs

[crazyave]

Great tips guys, thanks.  I've tried everything mentioned, but I'm going back and double checking.  I did find that I had forgotten to disable full screen optimizations for the new MT shortcut I created.  But I played it back and forth with that setting and could not tell the difference.

Now for the weird part.  My usual flying buddy and I have been using DCS for the past 4 years.  In that time we've come up with this saying "It's a bad (or good) DCS day".  Basically it seems each time we play the game seems to behave differently.  Not just in subtle ways, but some days it will perform terribly and others great.

I had stopped using MT a while back when the performance stopped being good.  Now randomly with no changes it's working fast again, at least as fast as ST with the benefit of some fixes that have only been applied to the MT version, like the bullet hole stuttering fix.  I don't know how long it will perform well, but we'll see.  Does anyone else have this kind of experience with DCS, where it seems to randomly change behavior and performance from day to day?

[shagrat]

Still figuring out how to setup everything for the Pico 4. To my understanding SteamVR is still the (un)necessary middle-man, I would love to eliminate.

That's basically me being stuck with SteamVR using OpenXR.

I'd love to simply launch VD or Streaming Assistant, click a separate DCS-VR shortcut (leaving the 2D/Desktop settings untouched, especially the AUDIO device preference!) and pick up the headset finding myself in the virtual hangar... Currently I launch DCS with -w dcs.VR --force_enable_VR need to accept the guardian area, then find myself in the SteamVR environment (to force the f...ing store), need to switch between Virtual Desktop and Steam until I finally see DCS launching only to finally find myself hovering over the DCS VR launch window and when entering the cockpit I float above the aircraft. Then recenter view to position myself into the cockpit and after quitting DCS I am back into the useless SteamVR shop, instead of the Pico's VR environment.

I would LOVE to eliminate Steam and SteamVR completely and just launch DCS with OpenXR directly from Virtual Desktop or with streaming assistant.

Edited June 11, 2023 by shagrat

[actually_fred]

20 minutes ago, shagrat said:

I would LOVE to eliminate Steam and SteamVR completely and just launch DCS with OpenXR directly from Virtual Desktop or with streaming assistant.

You need to request this from Virtual Desktop/ggodin, and Pico for streaming assistant; there's nothing ED can do here.

[shagrat]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb actually_fred:

You need to request this from Virtual Desktop/ggodin, and Pico for streaming assistant; there's nothing ED can do here.

Not asking, just explaining why my preference has to be SteamVR->OpenXR, until Pico supports OpenXR native.

[RealDCSpilot]

@BIGNEWY Oh my god. Please delete this poll. It's technically impossible. OpenXR is no runtime, it's only an API. A runtime is needed to access an API. This will only cause confused users getting even more confused. For a VR API you always need a VR runtime. There are three main runtimes: SteamVR / WMR / OculusVR and 4 VR API: OpenXR, OpenVR, LibOVR and WMR (same name as the runtime) - but only OpenXR is supported by every runtime. So technically, there is only one logical choice anyway for DCS's dev team and the future of VR in DCS, go OpenXR! Save time and ressources with taking support of the older APIs out (OpenVR and LibOVR).

DCS or any other PCVR game provide support for APIs only anyway, right now these are: OpenVR (SteamVR's own VR API), OpenXR (new standard API for everything VR/XR) and LibOVR (the older Oculus/Facebook VR API for PC/Windows and for their older wired PCVR headsets). The question which runtime to choose is completely on the user side, dependend on your VR HMD and which runtime it supports. There is no choice for OpenXR alone! You always need a runtime besides that.

@shagrat SteamVR is no middleman to avoid, it's essential as a VR runtime to access the API OpenXR. There will never be a VR runtime for Windows made by Pico. Virtual Desktop emulates OculusVR runtime, you can try to run DCS with OpenXR over VD alone, but it needs tinkering with the registry. I never tried it because SteamVR runs OpenXR just fine.

Edited June 12, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[mrsylvestre]

22 hours ago, crazyave said:

 Does anyone else have this kind of experience with DCS, where it seems to randomly change behavior and performance from day to day?

Yes, even though it doesn't make sense to me at all. I can have a perfectly fine session on the evening with DCS (MT) using the OpenXR API with the SteamVR runtime (for the Pico 4) and the next morning, with absolutely no update of DCS, Windows, the streamer app, Steam VR, GPU drivers, headset or anything in between, DCS would stubbornly remain stuck on the initial loading screen until I close steamVR after 10 min, then it starts in 2D / flatscreen. And then on later attempts it sometimes would work again. Until it doesn't anymore. Without changing one single parameter.

PC is not overclocked in any way (the only reason I would understand to cause inconsistent behaviour) and works fine with MSFS (which also uses OpenXR), IL-2, VTOL VR, racing sims,... Perhaps some sort of race condition being triggered? I can see that in the windows performance monitor, two cores alternatively go two 100% load every 2 seconds (when one is at 100% the other is at 0% and vice-versa). Again, DCS is the only software that triggers that behaviour.