MiG-29A FF: capabilities and how will it fit into the (meta)game?

[draconus]

44 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Obviously FC3 doesn't account for RCS so I think they are just based the 3m^2 detection for fighters, so obviously flying tennis courts like the 14 and 15 should show up at somewhat longer ranges, while the F16 for example will a smidge less.

What do you mean FC3 doesn't account for RCS? Then you go on that fighters with higher RCS actually are detected at longer ranges.

And please explain "cockroaching" meme. I thought I know sth about DCS.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

18 minutes ago, draconus said:

And please explain "cockroaching" meme.

I haven't heard that before either 

[Harlikwin]

35 minutes ago, draconus said:

What do you mean FC3 doesn't account for RCS? Then you go on that fighters with higher RCS actually are detected at longer ranges.

And please explain "cockroaching" meme. I thought I know sth about DCS.

IRL RCS matters. FC3 radars don't model differences in detection ranges due to RCS, various FF modules do it differing standards, I.e. the Jeff has some generic aspect based model. While the F15E afaik does both aspect and even stores differences.

 

18 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I haven't heard that before either 

That just means you fly low so you are hard to spot visually with your radar off usually in mountainous terrain. Its quite popular with flanker guys thinking they are stealthy doing it, with their EOS on to find high flying targets. It can work in DCS depending on the server. It just really wasn't done much IRL for millions of good reasons. 

[DisplayName]

5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

The other pro-tip is that don't ever fly the 29 in burner except air combat, you will instantly be out of gas. In fact outside of climbing keep the throttle at 80-90%. You have magic range gauge and you can see how drastically your throttle setting impacts the range. At higher alt (Where you should be anyway) you can fly across all the maps in the 29 if you aren't being dumb.  And your cruise speed will be nearly the same at 80% or 100% throttle. 

Thank you. Typically I have the throttle at 87% - 90% for general flying about, 90% - 95% for suspected enemy in area and moving to intercept, and afterburner upon contact visual. Still doesn't give me a lot of flight time, but so far as I am aware the MiG29 was designed to be an interceptor for know targets within a local front line sphere of influence, not to fly about doing air patrols (that was the realm of the Flanker); is this correct to your knowledge?

 

5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Also don't fly it on GS, tempests or BF80's are the better servers for it. Or Enigmas if you want to seal club gen2/3 jets with it.

I do have Tempest's server saved to favourites (I have for a long time), and I just added BlueFlag 80s so I'll keep an eye on it when it has enough users online. However, it appears that when I want to fly there is hardly anyone on Tempest's server, or it has a map that I do not have (Persian Gulf (Which is fine, I'll keep my eyes on it when it changes to Syria or Caucuses)). Hopefully when the F4 Phantom, MiG23 Flogger, and MiG29 Fulcrum come out these servers will become more populated; perhaps Enigma will open an new server and have an early Cold War server and a late Cold War server (I do like Enigma's server the most, but my only fixed wing that is suitable for it is the glorious F5E Tiger II).

[Harlikwin]

32 minutes ago, DisplayName said:

Thank you. Typically I have the throttle at 87% - 90% for general flying about, 90% - 95% for suspected enemy in area and moving to intercept, and afterburner upon contact visual. Still doesn't give me a lot of flight time, but so far as I am aware the MiG29 was designed to be an interceptor for know targets within a local front line sphere of influence, not to fly about doing air patrols (that was the realm of the Flanker); is this correct to your knowledge?

 

I do have Tempest's server saved to favourites (I have for a long time), and I just added BlueFlag 80s so I'll keep an eye on it when it has enough users online. However, it appears that when I want to fly there is hardly anyone on Tempest's server, or it has a map that I do not have (Persian Gulf (Which is fine, I'll keep my eyes on it when it changes to Syria or Caucuses)). Hopefully when the F4 Phantom, MiG23 Flogger, and MiG29 Fulcrum come out these servers will become more populated; perhaps Enigma will open an new server and have an early Cold War server and a late Cold War server (I do like Enigma's server the most, but my only fixed wing that is suitable for it is the glorious F5E Tiger II).

For range on the 29 just fly high, just like any other jet. Also make sure you dump the tank before combat. Lots of limits with the tank. 

Tempests has been a bit dead lately but it will likely pick up after the holidays, usually euro nights and then US eves are somewhat populated, but its been variable lately. IDK if there are any major plans to change the map anytime soon. But there was a Syria scenario at some point. Most likely when the F4 drops pop will pick up.  

BF80's is mostly a Eurozone thing but generally well populated then, US eves its hit or miss. 

I doubt that ECW will ever really feature the 29 very heavily, its basically the 50 point thrill ride there. 

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, DisplayName said:

Thank you. Typically I have the throttle at 87% - 90% for general flying about, 90% - 95% for suspected enemy in area and moving to intercept, and afterburner upon contact visual. Still doesn't give me a lot of flight time, but so far as I am aware the MiG29 was designed to be an interceptor for know targets within a local front line sphere of influence, not to fly about doing air patrols (that was the realm of the Flanker); is this correct to your knowledge?

 

I do have Tempest's server saved to favourites (I have for a long time), and I just added BlueFlag 80s so I'll keep an eye on it when it has enough users online. However, it appears that when I want to fly there is hardly anyone on Tempest's server, or it has a map that I do not have (Persian Gulf (Which is fine, I'll keep my eyes on it when it changes to Syria or Caucuses)). Hopefully when the F4 Phantom, MiG23 Flogger, and MiG29 Fulcrum come out these servers will become more populated; perhaps Enigma will open an new server and have an early Cold War server and a late Cold War server (I do like Enigma's server the most, but my only fixed wing that is suitable for it is the glorious F5E Tiger II).

Optimum cruise for MiG-29 is almost always around Mach 0.79-8.

I believe the manual also says 4.5 degrees AOA is for best range, and 6 degrees for next endurance

 

 Idk where this about FC3 not doing RCS come from. They all have detection range that depends on it. Anyone can plop a F-117 or a cruise missile with a b-52 and see themselves. Hell, the MiG-29/Su-27 BVR search mode even shows different target sizes depending on RCS/IR signature!!

They are limited by the same limits as all other ED modules, RCS being a single defined number for a unit with an aspect modifier. 3rd parties can tweak their radar models to account for aspect changes differently, loadout, but it has nothing to do with FC3 not doing such a thing. 

[GGTharos]

5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

FC3 radars don't model differences in detection ranges due to RCS,

Yes they do.  It's just that the RCS assigned to many aircraft is the same or similar.  I really have to wonder how you missed the detection range difference between say, a bomber and a fighter which is far more blatant than a slightly different RCS between fighters.

5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Its quite popular with flanker guys thinking they are stealthy doing it, with their EOS on to find high flying targets. It can work in DCS depending on the server. It just really wasn't done much IRL for millions of good reasons. 

That's because 'high flying targets' are just that, targets that don't know what they're doin beyond heading in some direction to try and catch something and lob a thing at it

EOS itself should be plagued with false contacts as well, in particular if any clutter at all is present in the view, including clouds  - that's one of them good reasons.  The other good reason is that IRL these fights are flown with actual tactics, and no one's going to fly over known enemy territory without having eyes down that (or any) valley, and by eyes I do mean radar.  Flying in a valley also means saying goodbye to your comms, including datalink - unless you have some form of a satellite terminal.   In general, if you're GCI dependent you need LOS to your GCI and the other guy knows where you are anyway - so you can effectively kiss valley flying 'to be sneaky' goodbye IRL.  It's not that you can't do it, but it's not going to be like DCS.

[Harlikwin]

4 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

Yes they do.  It's just that the RCS assigned to many aircraft is the same or similar.  I really have to wonder how you missed the detection range difference between say, a bomber and a fighter which is far more blatant than a slightly different RCS between fighters.

 

Oh I noticed the difference with bombers, but figured that was hard coded. But yeah I guess it makes sense they are just using the default RCS values and it isn't a huge difference. 

4 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

EOS itself should be plagued with false contacts as well, in particular if any clutter at all is present in the view, including clouds  - that's one of them good reasons.  The other good reason is that IRL these fights are flown with actual tactics, and no one's going to fly over known enemy territory without having eyes down that (or any) valley, and by eyes I do mean radar.  Flying in a valley also means saying goodbye to your comms, including datalink - unless you have some form of a satellite terminal.   In general, if you're GCI dependent you need LOS to your GCI and the other guy knows where you are anyway - so you can effectively kiss valley flying 'to be sneaky' goodbye IRL.  It's not that you can't do it, but it's not going to be like DCS.

Yeah, and well doing the valley crawl in enemy territory is just asking to eat a manpad etc.

As for comms, I assume soviet jets have those HF radios "for reasons", also interestingly the flanker DL at least also has a HF data radio, with very similar speeds to STANAG 4202. 

Edited January 11, 2024 by Harlikwin

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, DisplayName said:

Thank you. Typically I have the throttle at 87% - 90% for general flying about, 90% - 95% for suspected enemy in area and moving to intercept, and afterburner upon contact visual. Still doesn't give me a lot of flight time, but so far as I am aware the MiG29 was designed to be an interceptor for know targets within a local front line sphere of influence, not to fly about doing air patrols (that was the realm of the Flanker); is this correct to your knowledge?

The MiG-29 can fly patrols as well, but it would certainly seem to be the 'low' part of a high-low mix, with flanker being the 'high'.  It's basically the F-16 to an F-15.   If doing intercepts, IIRC initially at least it was expected to dash to its target within some 100km, throw all kinds of fireworks around, and then haul tail back to base.  That's not necessarily all it can do or what it was specifically designed to do, because it is also a very capable BFM machine and had BVR at a time when F-16s mostly lacked that capability.  It's basic characteristics mostly lend it to that type of action though.

It also does a reasonable job of delivering air to ground ordnance, so there is that as well.

4 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Oh I noticed the difference with bombers, but figured that was hard coded. But yeah I guess it makes sense they are just using the default RCS values and it isn't a huge difference. 

Yeah, and well doing the valley crawl in enemy territory is just asking to eat a manpad etc.

As for comms, I assume soviet jets have those HF radios "for reasons", also interestingly the flanker DL at least also has a HF data radio, with very similar speeds to STANAG 4202. 

 

There is a list published by someone (you probably know this better than I do) listing the RCS' of various DCS aircraft.   You can probably do some reasonably easy math to determine the detection range according to the radar equation and that RCS

Certainly 3rd party modules have now gone beyond this and there is a probabilistic detection game happening.   FC3 does not have this, and I don't know if the ED FF birds do.

[CrazyGman]

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

The MiG-29 can fly patrols as well, but it would certainly seem to be the 'low' part of a high-low mix, with flanker being the 'high'.  It's basically the F-16 to an F-15.   If doing intercepts, IIRC initially at least it was expected to dash to its target within some 100km, throw all kinds of fireworks around, and then haul tail back to base. 

It would depend if they are doing a scramble mission, then yes. If they  are doing a patrol with Flankers, I would actually expect the MiG-29 to be high, to help it remain on station for a length of time closer to the Flanker, unlike the F-16 the MiG-29 is actually pretty good cruising at high alt with the bigger wing, and flying body, while the F-16 has to end up sometimes using afterburner to maintain speed up that high. especially if it's the block 50s with the GE engine, and the higher bypass the works a bit better at low alt then the Block 52 which is a bit better suited for high alt.

[draconus]

3 hours ago, GGTharos said:

There is a list published by someone (you probably know this better than I do) listing the RCS' of various DCS aircraft.

[twistking]

4 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

[...]

Yeah, and well doing the valley crawl in enemy territory is just asking to eat a manpad etc.

As for comms, I assume soviet jets have those HF radios "for reasons", also interestingly the flanker DL at least also has a HF data radio, with very similar speeds to STANAG 4202.

I can't follow. Can you elaborate on those "resons", please? Do you think it's possible to bounce datalink radio against the ionosphere with 80s radio tech?

[AeriaGloria]

While talking about stealth, we’ll see if the IRST sets off RWR with its 0.25 hz radar pulses when it can’t use the laser to range beyond 3-6.5 km…….

[okopanja]

5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Yeah, and well doing the valley crawl in enemy territory is just asking to eat a manpad etc.

As for comms, I assume soviet jets have those HF radios "for reasons", also interestingly the flanker DL at least also has a HF data radio, with very similar speeds to STANAG 4202. 

I hope that people will forgive digression:

Well I would say it depends. The manpads have a rather limited employment time window. If they are not networked they tend to be rather ineffective in the first pass due to the reaction time and need to activate cooling, acquire, track and launch (older generation of manpads not requiring cooling could be used continuously as detectors, but newer ones require time to be prepared, which is not surprising to you since I noticed you are big fan of IR tech). Second pass is another thing, operator is more than alert . Already in 80s the soviets were equipping them with radio link fed by Bernaul T, which could give up to 4 targets to the operator + rough azimuth and distance of the target.

Also I would say that relatively good flat ground performance we witnessed in 2022 is a bit different from valley crawl. I do not think that the manpad datalink would be as effective as on flat ground, where there are plenty of opportunities to pick up the target in ground clutter.

The modern tendency is to provide the manpad with thermal scopes in addition to the DLs, which can be used for prolonged periods of time to assist acquisition and tracking.

As for HF radios, not sure what you aim at, signal reflection for better coverage?

[WinterH]

AFAIK, FC3 and all but the most recent full fidelity modules do use RCS values, but the catch is that it is a singular value independent of the aspect, and also most fighter sized aircraft are set at the same value for the most part I think. Some recent Razbam modules' radars (Mirage and Strike Eagle) I think also take aspect into consideration, and I think some recent ED radars like Hornet and Viper either have also added that or will do so.

Not sure if I really agree with Fulcrum being much more agile than, or even as agile as Flankers overall though. Sure it accelerates better, and turns maybe better at a certain speed band, but Flankers seem to be a lot less picky about the speed range or when you have to pull higher AoAs to me. And with a Flanker you can actually use that afterburner without the fear of having to catch a van ride home  afaik Flanker is theoretically better in numbers too, both in available manuals and in DCS tests on that website listing modules turn rates etc in each patch.

As for the cockroaching meme, it is indeed a meme overall, but it isn't as alient to reality to be honest. There have been cases when it happened IRL, Iraqis vs Tomcats being one I can think of, and in current conflict Ukrainian MiG-29s also had to employ it. It isn't ideal of course, but it is a last resort to try when you are significantly behind tech-wise. I suppose essentially cold war tech Fulcrums and Flankers facing lots of active radar guided missiles would qualify for that. But last I still at least occasionally did online multiplayer, back when the "hot server" was 104th, everyone did it, even F-15Cs were mowing lawns of Caucasian countryside

[Bremspropeller]

Five pages of people mostly talking missiles. Nice.

 

- What A-G ordnance will the jet come with? Anything to expect beyond the FC3 loadout?

- Will there be a fleshed out GCI meta? Would be cool to recieve steering-commands for interceps.

 

But here's the most important question:

Who else is gonna triple-Immelmann it or the first take-off?

 

[JetFighterGirl]

7 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Five pages of people mostly talking missiles. Nice.

 

- What A-G ordnance will the jet come with? Anything to expect beyond the FC3 loadout?

- Will there be a fleshed out GCI meta? Would be cool to recieve steering-commands for interceps.

 

But here's the most important question:

Who else is gonna triple-Immelmann it or the first take-off?

 

Officially it will have what is there in FC3, I doubt we will see HARM or JDAM implemented unless there is a public information as to how was it done regarding not only the pylons but also guidance and weapon interface (if there is any from the cockpit at all). SO expect Free fall bombs, cluster munitions dispensers, rockets. 

GCI - @Chizh seem to hinted there will not be initially, but it is hard for me to believe ED would omit such important item on the FULL FIDELITY version of the aircraft.

Hell yeah for the 3x Immelmann on the first take-off ! 

Edited January 11, 2024 by JetFighterGirl

[WinterH]

Just now, Bremspropeller said:

- What A-G ordnance will the jet come with? Anything to expect beyond the FC3 loadout?

That's something I'm curious about too. Although I think it's more likely to remain as is in FC3. Especially thinking that we'll get an early variant, I wonder if it had anything beyond those. Kh-25s seem unlikely, nothing to guide them with, though there was an early radio command Kh-25 version I guess, even that would require a pod and extra controls in the cockpit. Given no TV screen etc, don't think Kh-29T was ever an option on these old birds either. Only thing I dare to ask myself "hmm could it?" would maybe be something like Kh-25MP anti radar missiles but I don't think that was really a thing either to be honest. I wonder is there anywhere to read about air to ground capabilities of early Fulcrums. After all, it was an aircraft mainly intended as a fighter, so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have anything beyond unguided ordnance.

What I am really curious about is though, if it has more bombing modes than FC3 or not. For example something that is tied to NAV system may be? I doubt about it, but I'd be happy to find out if it had any. Bombing modes of Mirage 2000 is so fun for example.

[Tarres]

I think something like this:

AG ordenance: 2000 kg max. Only one type of bomb and/or one type of rocket. I think that the AG subsystem only allows for one type of weapons. 

Inner and middle station: up to 500kg bomb. Outer stations: up to 250 kg bombs.

I´m not sure about KMGU dispensers in the 9-12.

Rockets: all 6 stations: S-8, S-5. Only one type and one warhead allowed at the same time. Ballistics sets before take off in a control bay, same for the bombs. S-24 only on inner/middle I think (weight restriction).

Central station: fuel tank. Inner stations, maybe fuel tanks if it´s a 9-12 retrofitted.

Regarding bomb modes: main is using the laser rangefinder of the EOS subsystem. The other is using ballistics and data from airspeed and altitude. Nothing related to NAV or radar from what I´ve read.

There was an improved version (prototype or study) with more AG capabilities: 9.14 based in the 9.13 but I think that was abandoned when the focus shifted to the 9.15 (MiG-29M) 

 

Edited January 11, 2024 by Tarres

[okopanja]

55 minutes ago, WinterH said:

I wonder is there anywhere to read about air to ground capabilities of early Fulcrums.

I would not thouch neither HARM nor Kh-25, but there are 2 interesting things there:

1. KABR mode

2. R-60 for hitting ground targets with thermal signature (in the background mi-24 crowd jumps on their feet)

Edited January 11, 2024 by okopanja

[WinterH]

1 minute ago, okopanja said:

1. KABR mode

Interesting but what exactly would that be?

As for weapons retrofitted lately, I personally am not that interested in them either. If I get this module it'll be for what it was in the 80s.

[some1]

On 1/11/2024 at 1:46 PM, Tarres said:

Inner and middle station: up to 500kg bomb. Outer stations: up to 250 kg bombs.

I´m not sure about KMGU dispensers in the 9-12.

Rockets: all 6 stations: S-8, S-5. Only one type and one warhead allowed at the same time. Ballistics sets before take off in a control bay, same for the bombs. S-24 only on inner/middle I think (weight restriction).

No bombs or rockets on outer stations, same as it is now with FC aircraft. Probably no S-5, only S-8 or S-24 to choose from. S-5 was being phased out by then.

Probably no mixing of bombs and rockets. The pilot has choice of single release (for training), pairs, or full salvo, but not the spacing interval.

For A2G, CCIP or DiveToss mode with designating target through the HUD. DiveToss release angle pre set by ground personnel. There's no bombing on INS coordinates.

Probably no mixing with more than 2 missile types, as the armament panel only allows selecting "outer rails first" or "inner rails first" when firing A2A missiles. Not sure about mixing A2A and A2G on one flight. EDIT: yes, it's possible to mix A2A and A2G.

One countermeasures program, set before flight.

 

Edited January 18, 2024 by some1

[Tarres]

Thanks some1 for clarifying.

[Gierasimov]

23 minutes ago, okopanja said:

I would not thouch neither HARM nor Kh-25, but there are 2 interesting things there:

1. KABR mode

2. R-60 for hitting ground targets with thermal signature (in the background mi-24 crowd jumps on their feet)

 

Manual also says R-27 and R-73 can be used to attack unarmored high contrast ground targets. With the DCS better FLIR technology maybe this will be possible, right?

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

That's something I'm curious about too.

Naturally - you're my evil twin, after all

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

I wonder is there anywhere to read about air to ground capabilities of early Fulcrums. After all, it was an aircraft mainly intended as a fighter, so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have anything beyond unguided ordnance.

The way I understand the VVS/ Frontal Aviation role is that they all have at least a secondary air-ground role. In a way, the Fulcrum is just a Boomer's MiG-21. Which is awesome.

 

Ref the tandem 500kg bombs:

I'd like that loadout, just as much as I'd like possibly jury-rigged loadouts of the 9.12B-varaiant users. Remember, we'll have the maps to depict middle-eastern Fulcrums big time. So as slong as something doesn't require too much (classified) computer fiddling, I'm game.

Ref 9.13:

Didn't the 29S also have a flight-controls upgrade? I seem to remember they gave it 2° more AoA allowance for the AFCS-limiter. I also seem to remember (might be wrong, though) that the 9.12 had those retrofitted in the VVS. Again, that might be a mis-remembrance. Would be awesome to have that tick-box if it was a thing.