The curious lack of a F-35

[Duckman]

With a thousand built as of January 2024 and thousands more on order the F-35 is looking like the successor to the F-16 as the mainstay of Western air forces.

However its status in DCS is a bit of a mystery to me. I get the fact that it's still super secret and hard to model for a study sim. But in the long run a sim that makes a serious claim to model modern air combat needs a F-35 (and a F-22). Besides, there are lots of still super secret systems on not so secret airframes so the problem is not unique.

What say ye? My feeling is that there is enough data out there now to simulate a more than decent F-35.

[Mr_sukebe]

If you feel that there’s sufficient open source info available, please collate it and provide to ED

[Exorcet]

21 minutes ago, Duckman said:

However its status in DCS is a bit of a mystery to me. I get the fact that it's still super secret and hard to model for a study sim. But in the long run a sim that makes a serious claim to model modern air combat needs a F-35 (and a F-22). Besides, there are lots of still super secret systems on not so secret airframes so the problem is not unique.

DCS isn't a modern air combat sim. It's a flight simulation sandbox, though ED has kept the standards high for aircraft fidelity. Sufficient information on the F-35 is simply not available, and it would probably require new modeling techniques to simulate the technology it brings like stealth or AESA radar.

It might be OK as an AI aircraft, but as a player aircraft it would at the very least be extremely challenging to model with the fidelity of the F-16 or other teen fighters.

[draconus]

23 hours ago, Duckman said:

My feeling is that there is enough data out there now to simulate a more than decent F-35.

Not enough, not public and not legally attainable. That's the whole "mystery". Same reason we don't get F-22, Su-57, J-20 and the like.

[Silver_Dragon]

23 hours ago, Duckman said:

With a thousand built as of January 2024 and thousands more on order the F-35 is looking like the successor to the F-16 as the mainstay of Western air forces.

However its status in DCS is a bit of a mystery to me. I get the fact that it's still super secret and hard to model for a study sim. But in the long run a sim that makes a serious claim to model modern air combat needs a F-35 (and a F-22). Besides, there are lots of still super secret systems on not so secret airframes so the problem is not unique.

What say ye? My feeling is that there is enough data out there now to simulate a more than decent F-35.

Some years ago (2015?) a team with intent convert on 3rd Party, make a F-35 Kickstarted to get found to build that module, This ended in a complete failure. By the actual policy of available "open sources", has very dificult to build that type of aircrafts.

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

Not enough, not public and not legally attainable. That's the whole "mystery". Same reason we don't get F-22, Su-57, J-20 and the like.

We might not have enough open source material for an official playable module but do we have enough for AI?

 

On 3/18/2024 at 8:28 AM, Duckman said:

With a thousand built as of January 2024 and thousands more on order the F-35 is looking like the successor to the F-16 as the mainstay of Western air forces.

However its status in DCS is a bit of a mystery to me. I get the fact that it's still super secret and hard to model for a study sim. But in the long run a sim that makes a serious claim to model modern air combat needs a F-35 (and a F-22). Besides, there are lots of still super secret systems on not so secret airframes so the problem is not unique.

What say ye? My feeling is that there is enough data out there now to simulate a more than decent F-35.

Would you be happy with AI Raptors and Lightnings ?

 

[draconus]

49 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

We might not have enough open source material for an official playable module but do we have enough for AI?

We'd still hit the wall at the details of jet performance (even if then taken down to SFM), systems (radar), RCS and IR emission.

[F-2]

18 hours ago, draconus said:

We'd still hit the wall at the details of jet performance (even if then taken down to SFM), systems (radar), RCS and IR emission.

We do have a publicly available EM chart for the F-35 and a scatter study could give a good idea of RCS, certainly enough for AI. Though I could spend a day talking AI assets we could use.

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, F-2 said:

We do have a publicly available EM chart for the F-35 and a scatter study could give a good idea of RCS, certainly enough for AI. Though I could spend a day talking AI assets we could use.

https://shop.janes.com/all-the-world-s-aircraft-in-service-23-24-yearbook-6541-3000230011

The hard copy of the DCS wishlist

[Duckman]

On 3/18/2024 at 2:53 PM, Exorcet said:

DCS isn't a modern air combat sim. It's a flight simulation sandbox, though ED has kept the standards high for aircraft fidelity. Sufficient information on the F-35 is simply not available, and it would probably require new modeling techniques to simulate the technology it brings like stealth or AESA radar.

It might be OK as an AI aircraft, but as a player aircraft it would at the very least be extremely challenging to model with the fidelity of the F-16 or other teen fighters.

Part of the problem is that DCS is the only combat sim in town when it comes to modern aircraft. Something like Strike Fighters would be more suitable for a guesstimate model of the F-35, but unfortunately only DCS is still alive.

On 3/19/2024 at 2:07 PM, Silver_Dragon said:

Some years ago (2015?) a team with intent convert on 3rd Party, make a F-35 Kickstarted to get found to build that module, This ended in a complete failure. By the actual policy of available "open sources", has very dificult to build that type of aircrafts.

This one failed miserably (one percent funded) but that was way back in 2012: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wildbillstealey/f-35-lightning-ii-modern-combat-flying-simulation?ref=discovery

But maybe there was another one aimed at DCS that failed for a different reason?

On 3/19/2024 at 4:24 PM, upyr1 said:

We might not have enough open source material for an official playable module but do we have enough for AI?

 

Would you be happy with AI Raptors and Lightnings ?

 

I think an AI F-35 (and F-22) would be a good place to start. Surely the amount of data required for that must be lower, and there must be more available than in 2012 or 2015?

Games like Command: Modern Operations feature the F-35 (very different genre. I know) and they are certainly serious in their approach.

[Silver_Dragon]

14 minutes ago, Duckman said:

Part of the problem is that DCS is the only combat sim in town when it comes to modern aircraft. Something like Strike Fighters would be more suitable for a guesstimate model of the F-35, but unfortunately only DCS is still alive.

This one failed miserably (one percent funded) but that was way back in 2012: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wildbillstealey/f-35-lightning-ii-modern-combat-flying-simulation?ref=discovery

But maybe there was another one aimed at DCS that failed for a different reason?

I think an AI F-35 (and F-22) would be a good place to start. Surely the amount of data required for that must be lower, and there must be more available than in 2012 or 2015?

Games like Command: Modern Operations feature the F-35 (very different genre. I know) and they are certainly serious in their approach.

I found them.... Kinney interactive... on 2013
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/metatalta-paj/f-35a-lightning-ii-by-kinney-interactive

[F-2]

From

F-35 Aerodynamic Performance Verification (AIAA 2018-3679)

Going by that envelope that’s turning at 19000 feet.

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, Duckman said:

I think an AI F-35 (and F-22) would be a good place to start. Surely the amount of data required for that must be lower, and there must be more available than in 2012 or 2015?

What would be the point of an AI F-35? It would either be a kill-stealing Uber wingman or an unbeatable adversary. 
And the plane is just as classified today as it was then. It’s still a current active duty aircraft, nothing has changed in that regard. 
A 5th gen fighter would be overkill in 4th gen DCSW. What fun would it be just wiping out obsolete enemies? Like flying a modern jet in WWII.

Edited March 20 by SharpeXB

[twistking]

45 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

What would be the point of an AI F-35? It would either be a kill-stealing Uber wingman or an unbeatable adversary. 
And the plane is just as classified today as it was then. It’s still a current active duty aircraft, nothing has changed in that regard. 
A 5th gen fighter would be overkill in 4th gen DCSW. What fun would it be just wiping out obsolete enemies? Like flying a modern jet in WWII.

 

I think it could be fun to fly against an F-35. You could team-up against it, or design the mission in other ways that gives you at least a fighting chance. Surely would be interesting...
That said, i could think of dozens of aircraft, that would make much more sense to add as AI, so i'd still agree with your notion that the F-35 wouldn't be a particularly good choice to add...

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, twistking said:

I think it could be fun to fly against an F-35. You could team-up against it, or design the mission in other ways that gives you at least a fighting chance. Surely would be interesting...

In Red Flag the F-35 has a 20:1 kill ratio against its adversaries. Good luck

[Beirut]

I'd be happy to have a "best guess" payware F-35 to fly.

 

I think it would be a lot of fun.

[nessuno0505]

F-35 is for sure an interesting piece of tech, but even when you have it in DCS... to do what?

Our mid-2000 more modern aircrafts (f/a-18c, f-16c, f-15e, a-10c, jf-17) are already overpowered, not only vs older aircrafts but also against the vast majority of AI assets.

Do you like easy win?

It would be better to have 1980-1990 fc3 modules (f-15c, a-10a, su-27, su-33, mig-29a -- this one is coming!, su-25t) simulated in high fidelity, so that we can have a balanced blue vs red battlefield and more suited for AI assets. After we've had fun with high tech easy stuff it would be time for something still modern but more challenging, where you have to be a pilot more than a systems manager.

Why not the fc3 aircrafts in full fidelity, rather than the (impossible) f-35?

Edited March 21 by nessuno0505

[Dragon1-1]

A flying I-pad with a lot of electronics and very little guns. Nah, I'll pass, give me an F-4E any day.  The F-35B is interesting because VTOL, but otherwise not really all that great. There'd be no comparable assets for it. 

I think the early F-18E/F is the furthest forward in time that DCS should attempt to go (and that's only because of Top Gun 2 and that ancient Superbug sim that I'm rather fond of). Anything beyond that is too much of a flying computer IMO. The real fun is in Cold War era heater+gun dogfights, anyway.

[draconus]

9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

What would be the point of an AI F-35? It would either be a kill-stealing Uber wingman or an unbeatable adversary.

Funny that when it entered service they compared it to F-15C and the hatred poured all over it:

• it can't turn
• it's slow
• it has short legs

and now it's OP, LOL.

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

Funny that when it entered service they compared it to F-15C and the hatred poured all over it:

• it can't turn
• it's slow
• it has short legs

and now it's OP, LOL.

Well arguably it would be an even better aircraft without compromises like VTOL. But it would still be completely OP in DCSW. And in the real or game world stealth vs. non-stealth is like shooting fish in a barrel. 

[fjacobsen]

In 15-20 years maybe, when / if they can get hands on documents for it´s sensor and weapons systems on the present Block version.

Note that for all the present "modern" combat Aircraft in DCS, the Mark / Block numbers simulated are all more than 15 years old.

[SkateZilla]

On 3/18/2024 at 9:28 AM, Duckman said:

With a thousand built as of January 2024 and thousands more on order the F-35 is looking like the successor to the F-16 as the mainstay of Western air forces.

However its status in DCS is a bit of a mystery to me. I get the fact that it's still super secret and hard to model for a study sim. But in the long run a sim that makes a serious claim to model modern air combat needs a F-35 (and a F-22). Besides, there are lots of still super secret systems on not so secret airframes so the problem is not unique.

What say ye? My feeling is that there is enough data out there now to simulate a more than decent F-35.

There isn't sufficient documentation available publicly to simulate the systems at the level ED has set for all DCS Aircraft.

I don't know where you would assume there is enough information, all but a stripped down NATOPs is still classified and protected under ITARS,

The most you'll ever see in the next 10 years is a limited role AI, as DCS Does not simulate most of the 5th Gen spectrum of Stealth / ECM / Stealth warfare, etc etc etc.

Products for other sims are generalizing 90% of the systems they model, and excluding more complicated systems like radar and weapons, we call it Fake N Bake... because that sim has no set standards at all, some of the products for that sim are downright insulting.

Edited March 21 by SkateZilla

[F-2]

Personally I think we’ll see a Raptor long before an F-35. Raptor isn’t even out of the DCS 2000s timeframes and in terms of software is actually less complex then our Hornet. I’d still give it 5-10 years though.

 

F-35 is much more realistic as an asset, the Typhoon with Meteor is somewhat contemporary. Though I see it as a nice to have rather then an immediate need.

 

Block II super hornet is still unlikely which makes me skeptical of an F-35 till at least the 2030s.

[Exorcet]

16 hours ago, twistking said:

I think it could be fun to fly against an F-35. You could team-up against it, or design the mission in other ways that gives you at least a fighting chance. Surely would be interesting...
That said, i could think of dozens of aircraft, that would make much more sense to add as AI, so i'd still agree with your notion that the F-35 wouldn't be a particularly good choice to add...

A campaign built around exploring anti stealth tactics could be fun. I've had an idea for this using the F-117, but have not been able to devote time to creating the missions. AI F-35's wouldn't just have to serve as adversaries though, they could be interesting as allies as well. Fly with them deep into enemy territory and make use of their SA to survive beyond the range of friendly AWACS. Or you act as a supporting missile truck to offset their reduced weapons capacity when flying in a LO configuration.

While there are a lot of AI assets that DCS could benefit from, I don't think the F-35 is that wild of a choice to add.

[twistking]

1 minute ago, Exorcet said:

A campaign built around exploring anti stealth tactics could be fun. I've had an idea for this using the F-117, but have not been able to devote time to creating the missions. AI F-35's wouldn't just have to serve as adversaries though, they could be interesting as allies as well. Fly with them deep into enemy territory and make use of their SA to survive beyond the range of friendly AWACS. Or you act as a supporting missile truck to offset their reduced weapons capacity when flying in a LO configuration.

While there are a lot of AI assets that DCS could benefit from, I don't think the F-35 is that wild of a choice to add.

Good points.