waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[zerO_crash]

25 minutes ago, Q3ark said:

If a reduction in drama is what you want then it’s down to ED to make a statement, or post some updates regarding what’s going on, their intentions etc. Nobody here is an employee of either company, if they want to speculate in the absence of any official update then that’s up to them. 

Read my original comment closely. You're arguing with yourself here. I am precisely making the statement, that as long as customer's interest is taken care of, everything else is obviously ED's private sphere. If there is uncertainty (based on lack of statements there is), then transparency is necessary to avoid collateral (new customers purchasing modules that "could" get abandoned). 
 

At this point, it is going in circles. Adding fuel to fire is unneeded though. I respect Ron's work, but he is not professional with his communication (terms among firms has no place in the official sphere). His posts only add to the speculative narrative, which is counterproductive. Personally, I made the point concerning our interests, and I'm leaving it here until further official notice.

[primus_TR]

I've been an ED customer since Flanker 2.0, and I have known them to be a company of very strong business ethics and high quality products. Naturally, I don't know the specifics but my opinion is that, if ED has been withholding payments to Razbam, they must have a very good reason for it. And based on the utter lack of professionalism and the juvenile manner by which Razmab has (mis)handled the situation, without caring none about hurting end users besides ED in the process, I think whatever the outcome, Razbam should be shown the door. They don't belong in the DCS family. In fact, all Razbam products should be removed from ED store in my opinion. 

[huchanronaa]

What happened? To quote a netizen on reddit:

superdookietoiletexp

•18 天前•Edited 18 天前

 

 

The simplest explanation of what is going on is that Razbam was drawing on code they developed for DCS to build modules for another platform (maybe MSFS, maybe some professional simulator for military clients). ED thinks it owns the code and stops paying Razbam to force them to stop using it. Razbam refuses to stop and retaliates against ED by putting out the statement today. This can probably all be sorted out through mediation but that will take a while and us players will lose out in the interim.

[Q3ark]

9 minutes ago, zerO_crash said:

Read my original comment closely. You're arguing with yourself here.

Dude I'm not arguing with anyone, i wasn't even talking to you.

[zerO_crash]

1 minute ago, Q3ark said:

Dude I'm not arguing with anyone, i wasn't even talking to you.

 

Enjoy your day, chummer!

[Q3ark]

Congratulations, you win at the internet today

[Ignition]

2 hours ago, huchanronaa said:

What happened? To quote a netizen on reddit:

superdookietoiletexp

•18 天前•Edited 18 天前

 

 

The simplest explanation of what is going on is that Razbam was drawing on code they developed for DCS to build modules for another platform (maybe MSFS, maybe some professional simulator for military clients). ED thinks it owns the code and stops paying Razbam to force them to stop using it. Razbam refuses to stop and retaliates against ED by putting out the statement today. This can probably all be sorted out through mediation but that will take a while and us players will lose out in the interim.

Meanwhile Heatblur releases the F-14 also in MSFS

 

I'm not interested in the background, I only care for the F-15E, the best DCS module.

Edited April 22, 2024 by Ignition

[HWasp]

4 hours ago, primus_TR said:

I've been an ED customer since Flanker 2.0, and I have known them to be a company of very strong business ethics and high quality products. Naturally, I don't know the specifics but my opinion is that, if ED has been withholding payments to Razbam, they must have a very good reason for it. And based on the utter lack of professionalism and the juvenile manner by which Razmab has (mis)handled the situation, without caring none about hurting end users besides ED in the process, I think whatever the outcome, Razbam should be shown the door. They don't belong in the DCS family. In fact, all Razbam products should be removed from ED store in my opinion. 

Withholding all payments, if true, is a real brute force method even if the cause is legit.

Priority should have been to keep the show on the road while lawyers fight in the background, if necessary. This way both parties loose in the long term on this. 

[Tom Kazansky]

29 minutes ago, HWasp said:

Withholding all payments, if true, is a real brute force method even if the cause is legit.

Priority should have been to keep the show on the road while lawyers fight in the background, if necessary. This way both parties loose in the long term on this. 

Agreed. By holding back purchases we risk the entire amount of investment we put into DCS. I don't know what is right or wrong, but I for one don't want to wait and see whether some day some other company will deliver what ED did and does.

In good times, and bad times...

[rfxcasey]

TLDR Version: I won't attempt to dissuade anyone from speculating, but casting aspersions at this point isn't justifiable in my humble opinion.

Long Version: Speculating on the cause of the dispute is one thing, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but placing blame at this point seems premature given how little we know. That said, it seems to me Razbam has gained a little bit of a reputation toward drama over the years, whether deserved or not, and the current statements we have from them seem to fall in line with that. I'm not taking sides, and I don't think it's wise to do so at this point, but, ED has appeared to be fairly stand up in the past that's all I'll say.

Edited April 22, 2024 by rfxcasey

[WipeUout]

In this world of viral news and "I want to know now!", too many people get excited too quickly.  Coming from the defense industry and military before, the litigation process can be very long and usually there are several steps companies will take to try to resolve issues such as trying to solve it directly, then going through mediation and then maybe arbitration and then the courts.  Be patient guys. 

Meanwhile, we have a great sim and several modules that might not all be fully completed but still a lot of fun to enjoy!  

[rfxcasey]

1 hour ago, WipeUout said:

In this world of viral news and "I want to know now!", too many people get excited too quickly.  Coming from the defense industry and military before, the litigation process can be very long and usually there are several steps companies will take to try to resolve issues such as trying to solve it directly, then going through mediation and then maybe arbitration and then the courts.  Be patient guys. 

Meanwhile, we have a great sim and several modules that might not all be fully completed but still a lot of fun to enjoy!  

Well, yes generally, but ED should let folks know future support of Razbam modules is questionable before they purchase them.

[Gunnar81]

3 hours ago, WipeUout said:

In this world of viral news and "I want to know now!", too many people get excited too quickly.  Coming from the defense industry and military before, the litigation process can be very long and usually there are several steps companies will take to try to resolve issues such as trying to solve it directly, then going through mediation and then maybe arbitration and then the courts.  Be patient guys. 

Meanwhile, we have a great sim and several modules that might not all be fully completed but still a lot of fun to enjoy!  

Incredibly well stated, especially the last sentence. It is a miracle we have what we have at all in today's gaming industry.

[Art-J]

16 hours ago, Q3ark said:

Now it's out, as the owner of the IP ED is in a position to control the information coming out by making some kind of statement or update, helping set customers minds at ease and putting a stop to the uninformed speculation.

Eh.... Sounds plausible on paper but I just can't see it working in real life to be honest. No matter what ED announces from now on, just another one "I know sth but won't tell" post from Ron or one of his ex-devs on hoggit will be enough to relight speculation sh...storm immediately. You know, the "don't listen to corporate statement, believe the ex-employees blindly" mentality that will always be there, even amongst some of DCS community.

[Wacko_ZA]

45 minutes ago, Art-J said:

Eh.... Sounds plausible on paper but I just can't see it working in real life to be honest. No matter what ED announces from now on, just another one "I know sth but won't tell" post from Ron or one of his ex-devs on hoggit will be enough to relight speculation sh...storm immediately. You know, the "don't listen to corporate statement, believe the ex-employees blindly" mentality that will always be there, even amongst some of DCS community.

you sir nailed it.

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Art-J said:

Eh.... Sounds plausible on paper but I just can't see it working in real life to be honest. No matter what ED announces from now on, just another one "I know sth but won't tell" post from Ron or one of his ex-devs on hoggit will be enough to relight speculation sh...storm immediately. You know, the "don't listen to corporate statement, believe the ex-employees blindly" mentality that will always be there, even amongst some of DCS community.

I completely agree!

I find it funny, how all of a sudden, ED is treated (by some) like one of the evil mega corps (Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, Eagle Dynamics... You know, the "big five" )

[Wacko_ZA]

52 minutes ago, Hiob said:

I completely agree!

I find it funny, how all of a sudden, ED is treated (by some) like one of the evil mega corps (Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, Eagle Dynamics... You know, the "big five" )

I think a lot of the hate towards ED comes from people that have not lived the VAEO pain, and razbam in their prime sausage render factory times when they had 34 modules claimed but the 2kc was barebones, or the harrier could fly without wings (cough cough F15E).

They are fanboys because they got the F15E and thats about it.

[JB3DG]

On 4/21/2024 at 9:27 AM, oldcrusty said:

It crossed my mind on occasion...  this entire caboodle might already be coded by AI  

As a programmer who has played around with AI, nope. Not a chance. AI is ok for generating snippets of known solutions to known problems. Ask it to generate code that is more than 100 lines tends to get very iffy. Bottom line, it still takes a professional programmer to know what questions to ask the AI, and then integrate the output into the main program.

And AI's biggest weakness is that first part: Asking the right questions.

[maxTRX]

2 hours ago, JB3DG said:

As a programmer who has played around with AI, nope. Not a chance. AI is ok for generating snippets of known solutions to known problems. Ask it to generate code that is more than 100 lines tends to get very iffy. Bottom line, it still takes a professional programmer to know what questions to ask the AI, and then integrate the output into the main program.

And AI's biggest weakness is that first part: Asking the right questions.

I know, I've seen some of AI's creations...  I just threw a quick jab at the entire 'entity' here and how things are running... generally  (OT as usual )

[rfxcasey]

8 hours ago, Hiob said:

I completely agree!

I find it funny, how all of a sudden, ED is treated (by some) like one of the evil mega corps (Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, Eagle Dynamics... You know, the "big five" )

I'm not really seeing how ED is treated as an "evil mega corp", barring perhaps the occasional outlier. Seems like an exaggeration frankly, "by some" meaning what, one or two users out of thousands?

7 hours ago, Wacko_ZA said:

I think a lot of the hate towards ED comes from people that have not lived the VAEO pain, and razbam in their prime sausage render factory times when they had 34 modules claimed but the 2kc was barebones, or the harrier could fly without wings (cough cough F15E).

They are fanboys because they got the F15E and thats about it.

Yeah, not really seeing all this "hate" or getting that vibe at all, mostly just folks concerned about recent events regarding one of their favorite sims. And while not a term I use personally, I feel "fanboy" would apply more to anyone who instinctively jumps to "defend" something or someone against legitimate and reasonable questions or concerns.

5 hours ago, JB3DG said:

As a programmer who has played around with AI, nope. Not a chance. AI is ok for generating snippets of known solutions to known problems. Ask it to generate code that is more than 100 lines tends to get very iffy. Bottom line, it still takes a professional programmer to know what questions to ask the AI, and then integrate the output into the main program.

And AI's biggest weakness is that first part: Asking the right questions.

A bit short sighted perhaps. Once again, augment if not totally replace this type of work, now and in the future. AI is in its infancy, its advancement is and will be exponential, today, tomorrow and beyond. I wouldn't discount it simply because it doesn't do everything you need it to perfectly today. It will most certainly replace you at some point.

Edited April 23, 2024 by rfxcasey

[Wacko_ZA]

14 hours ago, rfxcasey said:

I'm not really seeing how ED is treated as an "evil mega corp", barring perhaps the occasional outlier. Seems like an exaggeration frankly, "by some" meaning what, one or two users out of thousands?

Yeah, not really seeing all this "hate" or getting that vibe at all, mostly just folks concerned about recent events regarding one of their favorite sims. And while not a term I use personally, I feel "fanboy" would apply more to anyone who instinctively jumps to "defend" something or someone against legitimate and reasonable questions or concerns.

A bit short sighted perhaps. Once again, augment if not totally replace this type of work, now and in the future. AI is in its infancy, its advancement is and will be exponential, today, tomorrow and beyond. I wouldn't discount it simply because it doesn't do everything you need it to perfectly today. It will most certainly replace you at some point.

 

Perhaps you should stop living in a bubble and go to other places, hoggit, facebook, even discord. People are out for ED in force, laying the blame for all of this squarely at their feet. but thanks for your reply. 

A LARGE part of the community seems to favor razbam as the victim here, and refuse to even contemplate that maybe, just maybe they are in the wrong.

Anyway, have a nice day.

[Tom Kazansky]

it is not about what side is more right, alone. It is about how this battle is fought.

If this does not end soon, WE will be victims.

[OldFlyer]

1 hour ago, Tom Kazansky said:

it is not about what side is more right, alone. It is about how this battle is fought.

If this does not end soon, WE will be victims.

Agreed. I have no interest in who is right or wrong, what happened behind the scenes, etc. etc. 

I just want someone (whether that is RAZBAM or ED) to say that the customers are not going to be left in the lurch and that work on bug fixing and feature development is now resuming (not "will resume at some unspecified time in the future"). 

[Mr_Burns]

3 hours ago, Wacko_ZA said:

Perhaps you should stop living in a bubble and go to other places, hoggit, facebook, even discord. People are out for ED in force, laying the blame for all of this squarely at their feet. but thanks for your reply. 

A LARGE part of the community seems to favor razbam as the victim here, and refuse to even contemplate that maybe, just maybe they are in the wrong.

Anyway, have a nice day.

I would be sceptical of anyone taking sides right now, this ‘issue’ would be confidential and either party breaching that would be in a bad place legally, sounds like it’s with the lawyers now, who will be the only winners here.

[Mr_Burns]

On 4/16/2024 at 6:32 AM, Art-J said:

Yeah, that's indeed how it was supposed to be after VEAO collapse, but during the whole last week shebang one of the Raz devs hinted that ED doesn't actually have full source code of the Eagle for whatever reason. It might be BS info for all we know, but without further clarification on that hint, one can see why it makes some people nervous given the history of Hawk module.

As for the EA meaning purchasing unfinished product for full price, I'd like to remind that F-15E never got to its planned full price, so one could also argue that since it's sold 20% off, it can be abandoned with 80% functionality as well and that would be a "fair" deal. Granted, we can only hope this saga will have a happier ending.

I believe source code is held in something called Escrow, at least it is with my contracts, basically meaning if the developer doesn’t fulfill their contractual obligations you may get access to it.

So it’s not available to you until a legal hearing agrees they have broken their agreement.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow