waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[tribbin]

10 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

Maybe ED couldn't and maybe can't remove RB's modules from the store, to avoid non-contractual actions. But now that RB itself has put an official statement on its website, perhaps a link to that statement on the razbam modules store pages could be added? Just asking.

RAZBAM had already asked ED to take it off the store, to which the response of ED was that it was still on RAZBAM's store.

Since RAZBAM has removed it, their previous argument does not hold anymore.

Edited June 8, 2024 by tribbin

[Tom P]

This is stupid, this thread needs locked. 

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, tribbin said:

RAZBAM had already asked ED to take it off the store, to which the response of ED was that it was still on Heatblur's store.

Since RAZBAM has removed it, their previous argument does not hold anymore.

Can you please show me where RAZBAM have said they have asked us to remove products from the store? 

PM me if your prefer. 

[BIGNEWY]

7 minutes ago, Tom P said:

This is stupid, this thread needs locked. 

People will want to discuss and vent their disappointment and for now this is the best place to do it on the forum. 

We will be moderating here and people who are rude or break the rules will get warning points. 

Thank you

[schmiefel]

According to the Razbam Discord today (7th June, 2024, 13:21 CEST) there seems to be that negotiations are still ongoing - not much info, but at least some kind of a statement...

Sorce: https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1226492074233434182

Sorry .. mixed the dates ... today was just the link added to their online shop ... that they stopped support of their products

Source. https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1248813214150688829

I think i was just hoping too much that there is some kind of positive movement ...

Edited June 8, 2024 by schmiefel
corrected misinformation

[Nightstalker]

Well, I’m happy ED was reasonable and credited my F15 purchase back to me so I can purchase something else I will enjoy.  Whoever is at fault is not my concern but I’d rather not have my purchases caught in the middle.  I will happily re-purchase the F15 in the future if things are properly settled.  I have the F4 and Kiowa to keep me busy for a while.

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, Nightstalker said:

Well, I’m happy ED was reasonable and credited my F15 purchase back to me so I can purchase something else I will enjoy.  Whoever is at fault is not my concern but I’d rather not have my purchases caught in the middle.  I will happily re-purchase the F15 in the future if things are properly settled.  I have the F4 and Kiowa to keep me busy for a while.

We totally understand, we hope this situation can be resolved as RAZBAM have some great aircraft in DCS. Have a great weekend and enjoy your flights. 

[LordOrion]

7 minutes ago, Nightstalker said:

Well, I’m happy ED was reasonable and credited my F15 purchase back to me so I can purchase something else I will enjoy.  Whoever is at fault is not my concern but I’d rather not have my purchases caught in the middle.  I will happily re-purchase the F15 in the future if things are properly settled.  I have the F4 and Kiowa to keep me busy for a while.

How can I ask a refund too?

I think its' time to try get back some money/credits from SA map and SE.

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, LordOrion said:

How can I ask a refund too?

I think its' time to try get back some money/credits from SA map and SE.

If you purchased from our store contact support directly, please note you can only refund the F-15E for a store credit, and there is a wait for the refund to be processed. 

We would prefer you hold out as we hope the situation will be resolved, and it is a great module. 

thank you

[LordOrion]

1 minute ago, BIGNEWY said:

We would prefer you hold out as we hope the situation will be resolved, and it is a great module. 

thank you

I know that, and that's the reason why I'm so pissed about all of this mess

[SkateZilla]

1 hour ago, Malakhit said:

Rhymes with honey. Can be used to keep a roof over your head and food in your belly. Can't quite put my finger on the term.

Also, with regards to the will - you know that Metal2Mesh has been working on futher features for the Strike Eagle, right? They haven't stopped working despite this unfortunate situation.

Just to be clear,

I'm neutral, as I'm not involved with either side legally, *(Ie, I don't get paid by either company), I am a consumer like everyone else.

But just wanna emphasize some things:
ED doesn't write checks to the RB Employees or 1099s, that's RB's responsibility, which obviously hasn't been full filled due to contract breach halting payments from ED to RB.

So the halt is not on ED entirely, RB made the decision to keep working during negotiations as long as they could without pay from their employer, RB.

So for future reference, for anyone to question RB Employees at this point is moot, they worked for months without pay, so far the employees and subcontractors are the heroes of this story for working as long as they could with bills piling up.

There is no "Blame" to pass around and point fingers. RB operated with no Pay, ED Paused payments for breach of contract.
Both sides are entitled to make those operational choices and decisions.

Metal2Mesh is a separate company sub contracted by RB. Any work still being done w/ Laser scanning etc, was likely to be used for more than just DCS, if anything, their own portfolio.

 

57 minutes ago, tribbin said:

RAZBAM had already asked ED to take it off the store, to which the response of ED was that it was still on RAZBAM's store.

Since RAZBAM has removed it, their previous argument does not hold anymore.

 

This is not true at all, which is the mis-information because of discord and poorly moderated comments by in said discord.

Edited June 8, 2024 by SkateZilla

[SkateZilla]

As far as credits:
F-15E is still early access, with future support in negotiations, which is reasonable to ask for refunds, due to uncertainty that advertised features would be finished.

AV-8B, M-200C, MiG-19, and S.A. are listed as feature complete, so not likely to get any sort of compensation for them,

They are fully operational modules, regardless of updates breaking them in the future, updates arent mandatory for the end user. *(though it's complicated due to most users wanting to use the aircraft in multi-player)

[Beirut]

4 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

They are fully operational modules, regardless of updates breaking them in the future, updates arent mandatory for the end user. 

 

Don't mean to sound rude, but that's about as close to "Stop flying DCS" as I've read. If that is to be considered a tenet of the sim going forward, it's cooked.

[Silver_Dragon]

1 hour ago, nessuno0505 said:

What tool? The will?

SDK / TDK tools and repositories.

[Shibiswag]

12 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

You must be great fun at parties. 

Just simply stating facts.

8 hours ago, =DROOPY= said:

Entitled~

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

 

 

 

 

 

en·ti·tled

/inˈtīdld,enˈtīdld/

 

adjective

adjective: entitled

1. believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.

   "kids who feel so entitled and think the world will revolve around them"

Oh no I made a typo and misspelled a word.

[SkateZilla]

13 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

Don't mean to sound rude, but that's about as close to "Stop flying DCS" as I've read. If that is to be considered a tenet of the sim going forward, it's cooked.

 

Not rude at all, especially for the MP Scene.

[Shibbyland]

24 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

As far as credits:
F-15E is still early access, with future support in negotiations, which is reasonable to ask for refunds, due to uncertainty that advertised features would be finished.

AV-8B, M-200C, MiG-19, and S.A. are listed as feature complete, so not likely to get any sort of compensation for them,

They are fully operational modules, regardless of updates breaking them in the future, updates arent mandatory for the end user. *(though it's complicated due to most users wanting to use the aircraft in multi-player)

This is not a reasonable position to take. The product is a complete package, it's expected to work.

If ED want to take the position that updates aren't mandatory so if your stuff stops working when you update, too bad, that's fine but then don't expect customers to stick around.

A customer who owns the majority of modules on DCS will have spent anywhere from $2000 to $3000. The product is expected to work. 

[scommander2]

Is there a summary what happens at this point?

Based on I read so far that ED is waiting for RB to resolve RB internal issues (employees do not get pay and others...)?! 

[Shibiswag]

12 hours ago, ChuckJäger said:

I think you are wholesale misrepresenting Early Access.  It's 'at your own risk' because you are getting what could be a potentially bugged product - but it's marketed as a working copy of a more complete product down the line.  No where in the EA model, to my knowledge, with ED does it say it can just disappear and that is wholly on the buyer.

you are also getting a product that has no guarantee of ever being finished.
Trust me, if you've heard of 7 days to die.
That game has been in Alpha (Early access) for 10+ years now.

They are barley going 1.0 in a few weeks.
which was honestly supposed to be another Alpha (update) to version 22.

Not misrepresenting anything. Early access is exactly that, you are intentionally buying an unfinished product knowing it's going to be bugged, yet also knowing that doesn't guarantee it's going to be finished either, or in a certain amount of time, and can be dropped all together.

Now, if they released it as a "finished product" and it was virtually useless and unplayable, then yes, a refund should be warranted.
A perfect example of this was "SimCity" when it was released by EA way back when.

That game was sold as a finished product when indeed it was not, it was bugged to all hell and back, unplayable, couldn't even get online to it to even play, which EA stated was only way to play which was a lie as later someone found in the code that it could be run just fine for single player offline.
They said "no refunds" yet had to issue them because many like myself went to the BBB and reported it as false advertising and got my money back.

So whoever is doing what in this whole debacle of a situation with RB, from my understanding ED has a clause in their contract that 3rd party devs have to hand over the source code for the module so if they pull out so ED can still update the product, which I read that RB has failed to do.
Though like I said that's just what I've read, don't quote me on that.
 

[Wizard_03]

42 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

If you purchased from our store contact support directly, please note you can only refund the F-15E for a store credit, and there is a wait for the refund to be processed. 

We would prefer you hold out as we hope the situation will be resolved, and it is a great module. 

thank you

Thank you for bitting the bullet and offering people the choice. Personally I am going to wait to refund my F-15E because id rather have that module finished then the money back. But giving customers who are worried about the situation a chance to punch out is the responsible course of action. That's gives me a little more confidence, and was all I asked when this whole mess started. 

 

Maybe I should speak for myself but I think we all want DCS to succeed and I think we all want the strike eagle to be finished and I think we all want the best for razbam and ED. 

[tribbin]

50 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

This is not true at all, which is the mis-information because of discord and poorly moderated comments by in said discord.

It seems you have a point and I will be less confident in trusting statements in the future.

My sole focus is informed consent for the customer because I consider a 'refund' (no money back, after all) afterwards insufficient, but I now believe that all parties involved agree on that.

Edited June 8, 2024 by tribbin

[Njinsa]

6 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

Thank you for bitting the bullet and offering people the choice. Personally I am going to wait to refund my F-15E because id rather have that module finished then the money back. But giving customers who are worried about the situation a chance to punch out is the responsible course of action. That's gives me a little more confidence, and was all I asked when this whole mess started. 

 

Maybe I should speak for myself but I think we all want DCS to succeed and I think we all want the strike eagle to be finished and I think we all want the best for razbam and ED. 

+1

I'm also keeping my copy of Mudhen.

60 EUR is a bargain compared to other entertainment you pay for stuff far more common to all.

I have been waiting for it from Jane's F-15 and thus supported ED from Lockon era hoping that someday DCS gets the most complex blue air asset alive.

If it's cooked, not going to wait next 25 years for the 'F-15E - wheelchair edition'....good luck DCS. You'll need it.

[BIGNEWY]

15 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

Thank you for bitting the bullet and offering people the choice. Personally I am going to wait to refund my F-15E because id rather have that module finished then the money back. But giving customers who are worried about the situation a chance to punch out is the responsible course of action. That's gives me a little more confidence, and was all I asked when this whole mess started. 

 

Maybe I should speak for myself but I think we all want DCS to succeed and I think we all want the strike eagle to be finished and I think we all want the best for razbam and ED. 

We understand Wizard, I hope once we have a resolution everyone can go back to enjoying the F-15E. 

No matter what happens DCS is here to stay and we continue to grow and work towards improving DCS. 

have a great weekend. 

[SkateZilla]

5 minutes ago, Njinsa said:

+1

I'm also keeping my copy of Mudhen.

60 EUR is a bargain compared to other entertainment you pay for stuff far more common to all.

I have been waiting for it from Jane's F-15 and thus supported ED from Lockon era hoping that someday DCS gets the most complex blue air asset alive.

If it's cooked, not going to wait next 25 years for the 'F-15E - wheelchair edition'....good luck DCS. You'll need it.

As a gamer and a developer (*for other games other than DCS.).

I can tell you the cost of a module is fantastically priced compared to some sports titles that use the same core for 10 years, and charge it's fanbase $70 for yearly patches and roster updates.

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

 

Not rude at all, especially for the MP Scene.

 

I just wanted to register a disagreement without being a prick about it. 

 

If the modules came with a warning, and not small print, that at any point an update required to fly those other planes and enjoy those other assets and features, might make your new purchase unflyable...... put that up in bold and watch the sales figures plummet in real time. But that's just my take on it.