waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[some1]

14 hours ago, Oban said:

Which is the same as every other software producing company out there, it's called keeping your business interests going. Why should Eagle Dynamics be any different ?

That's why i wouldn't read too much into what she said. It's the same "utmost attention and constructiveness" we've read from Mr Nick Grey eight months ago and repeated by community managers in various incarnations of this thread. Maybe things are moving behind the scenes, maybe they are not. We don't know.

Even if things were bad, it's not in ED interest to announce that loud and wide.

Edited November 27, 2024 by some1

[Shibbyland]

51 minutes ago, Oban said:

Considering ALL the Razbam modules are still as functional as they were when this situation went public, then it's 100% a personal choice..

"The Razbam situation is the sole reason I stopped playing" .... sounds like a personal choice to me

Isn't everyone's response to any situation a personal choice? Who else's choice would it be? 

How is feedback/discussion about a situation arising with a company or product, on said company or products forum such a point of contention? 

When this all first came out, I was supportive of ED. RAZBAMs public outburst was highly unusual. That being said, it's done damage and checking in here periodically does nothing to restore confidence. In fact, the derision a fairly straightforward bit of feedback has been met with only serves to underline the exact point I'm making. This situation has, in some cases, reduced DCS to something resembling political factions. That's not exactly endearing.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Shibbyland

[Oban]

2 hours ago, Shibbyland said:

The bizarre public way it came out, it not being the first time (except this time it’s many more products affected), the issues with products following it and the apparent ongoing nature eroding confidence in what remains particularly as 3rd party products are a huge part of DCS.

Name one 3rd party that has decided to stop updating their products in solidarity with Razbam, and their current predicament

Name one 3rd party that has decided to stop development of their product in solidarity of Razbam.

Despite private conversations between RB and another 3rd party developer, that were deliberately released by disgruntled razbam devs in order to stoke the flames, in which that 3rd party distanced themselves with the situation between RB and ED, they went to to succesfully release one of the best Modules ever to have graced the skies, where exactly is this erosion of confidence between 3rd party developers and Eagle Dynamics ?

What methodology are you applying this erosion of confidence on ? Are you a stakeholder in every single 3rd party developer for DCS, or are you simply basing it off your own personal feelings that made you stop playing and enjoying DCS?

Cutting off ones nose to spite their face seldom reaps rewards.

The way I see this is there's main 3 factions present.

1. The ED loyalists, who continue to buy into the game they love and enjoy and continue flying their favourite modules

2. The Razbam loyalists, who see ED as the great satan, and can't wait to see ED crash and burn, and cannot wait for a competitor to push ED off the top spot, and have more or less stopped playing, despite every single RB module still functions, who tend to follow Reddit rather than ED forums

3. The flight sim enusiasts, who don't care about the personal issues, ED or Razbam as all the modules they bought are still working, and they're having a blast.

You're right about one thing, the level of toxicity that I've seen, sadly mostly coming from one faction, though not completley isolated to them is staggering.. and saddens me, but not to the point where I feel it's enough to stop me enjoying a hobby that has spanned over 40 years.

[Shibbyland]

42 minutes ago, Oban said:

Name one 3rd party that has decided to stop updating their products in solidarity with Razbam, and their current predicament

Name one 3rd party that has decided to stop development of their product in solidarity of Razbam.

Despite private conversations between RB and another 3rd party developer, that were deliberately released by disgruntled razbam devs in order to stoke the flames, in which that 3rd party distanced themselves with the situation between RB and ED, they went to to succesfully release one of the best Modules ever to have graced the skies, where exactly is this erosion of confidence between 3rd party developers and Eagle Dynamics ?

What methodology are you applying this erosion of confidence on ? Are you a stakeholder in every single 3rd party developer for DCS, or are you simply basing it off your own personal feelings that made you stop playing and enjoying DCS?

Cutting off ones nose to spite their face seldom reaps rewards.

The way I see this is there's main 3 factions present.

1. The ED loyalists, who continue to buy into the game they love and enjoy and continue flying their favourite modules

2. The Razbam loyalists, who see ED as the great satan, and can't wait to see ED crash and burn, and cannot wait for a competitor to push ED off the top spot, and have more or less stopped playing, despite every single RB module still functions, who tend to follow Reddit rather than ED forums

3. The flight sim enusiasts, who don't care about the personal issues, ED or Razbam as all the modules they bought are still working, and they're having a blast.

You're right about one thing, the level of toxicity that I've seen, sadly mostly coming from one faction, though not completley isolated to them is staggering.. and saddens me, but not to the point where I feel it's enough to stop me enjoying a hobby that has spanned over 40 years.

I think we have a very similar assessment of things. I'll be upfront and say I'm not in some loyalist camp determined to make another out to be a villain. Without a doubt, RAZBAM were wrong to go public the way they did and doing so has probably made the business relationship unrecoverable (just an opinion but based on experience). That being said, it seems likely there is some substance to their grievances as it would be uncommon for there to be so much fuss over nothing. Truth be told, I actually don't much care whether RAZBAM returns or doesn't, I've written the F-15e off and the other modules I suspect will age and be overtaken by others and that's fine.

I'll also say I haven't sat down and decided I'm going to boycott DCS or that I'm going to try and take some stand by not playing, it's just the way things have panned out. Where that becomes relevant to this discussion is that it's unlikely I'm the only one. 

The lack of confidence is based mainly on the following:

1) That this discussion is here in the open for us all to see at all. That's just poor form.

2) This isn't the first time this type of issue has occurred. What's actually going on where working relationships are breaking down to the point things are so publicly vitriolic? If they learned from the first one, how is it so bad the second time round?

3) DCS is expensive, if it can happen twice, it can happen a third and a fourth and a fifth time. I got a store credit refund for the F-15e, I appreciate that, but I don't want to sink more money into products I may only get a credit for, not after this.

4) The sheer amount of stuff being said all over the show, much of which doesn't reflect well on either RAZBAM or ED. Sure it might all be nonsense but it's being said. ED is doing what they have to do in keeping quiet while the legal process takes it's course and I absolutely respect that but in the meantime things like leaked letters are destabilising, it's not fair, ED can't control what people say but it's just the way it is.

5) This is less about the RAZBAM situation and more about DCS in general. The sheer volume of stuff being releaesed and then sitting in early access for years. Three or four years down the track in some cases and still early access.

I shouldn't have to give a disclaimer but for the avoidance of doubt, what I say here isn't meant to be an attack on anybody. It just is what it is and when it improves I'm sure I'll be back to it but in the meantime, this is where it's at and that sucks.

It'd be my preference none of this ever became public and it just quietly went on in the background.

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by Shibbyland

[beacon]

on their Razbam site they claim to abadon dcs and FSX so no they wont come back

[Panny]

59 minutes ago, beacon said:

on their Razbam site they claim to abadon dcs and FSX so no they wont come back

Not that the site is updated regularly, but looking today what you are saying is verifiably false.

null

[beacon]

50 minutes ago, Panny said:

Not that the site is updated regularly, but looking today what you are saying is verifiably false.

null

So they are not stepping away? If i read the site then they stepped away from it. Or is this not right information?

[TKhaos]

25 minutes ago, beacon said:

So they are not stepping away? If i read the site then they stepped away from it. Or is this not right information?

That has been on the site for ages, long before any of this started and they stepped away from FSX because it was becoming almost obsolete with newer flight simulators.

Why would Razbam be interested in sinking money into old, outdated software when you have two much newer products from Microsoft. It would be like Eagle Dynamics still producing content and actively updating Flanker 2.0 from 1999, absolutely pointless unless you expect developers to support products for infinity.

Edited November 27, 2024 by TKhaos

[Beirut]

7 hours ago, Shibbyland said:

The RAZBAM situation is the sole reason I stopped playing. The bizarre public way it came out, it not being the first time (except this time it’s many more products affected), the issues with products following it and the apparent ongoing nature eroding confidence in what remains particularly as 3rd party products are a huge part of DCS.

 

The assertion this is somehow a “personal issue” is either a poor choice of words or an attempt to be belittling…or have I misunderstood?

 

I am still enjoying the F-15E, Harrier, and the South Atlantic map a lot. As well as all the other modules I have.

 

So it is a personal issue for you if you stop flying, as it is a personal issue for me to keep flying. Nothing wrong with that.

[KoN]

21 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

 

apparently someone knows a little more than others...

Hmmm what does that even mean. ???

So someone has to go from ED management. Before Razbam comes back . Is that what I'm reading. ? 

[KoN]

13 hours ago, Shibbyland said:

The RAZBAM situation is the sole reason I stopped playing. The bizarre public way it came out, it not being the first time (except this time it’s many more products affected), the issues with products following it and the apparent ongoing nature eroding confidence in what remains particularly as 3rd party products are a huge part of DCS.

 

The assertion this is somehow a “personal issue” is either a poor choice of words or an attempt to be belittling…or have I misunderstood?

 

 

I wouldn't stop flying in DCS , after all it's one of its kind , especially in multiplayer, frustrating and great fun . Might as well use your rig and enjoy what you have in present day . 

[StarLiner]

I want to be optimistic, but I feel like there is little reason for optimism. Recent comments ED hinting at their own MiG-23 and saying the Strike Eagle will be supported in some form make it seem like Razbam has well and truly left the building. 

 

This does leave us with three mostly functioning modules, but they will never see a sale again. And if ED is supporting these modules now, do you think we will ever see a fix to their issues? For example the MiG 19 campaign has not functioned at all, like at all, in several years. Not even the first mission. This bug is actually the longest running, most replied topic in the Mig19 bug forum -

 

Despite this, the campaign is still advertised on the store page. Will we ever see a fix for this issue and others like it?

 

[Maxthrust]

On 11/26/2024 at 2:32 PM, nessuno0505 said:

 

apparently someone knows a little more than others...

It's just how things work. If ED terminates BIGNEWY you wouldn't read more from him as he is not going to spend time and effort without getting paid. We may see razbam coming back though.. That's an easy choice for me.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Maxthrust

[Oban]

1 hour ago, Maxthrust said:

It's just how things work. If ED terminates BIGNEWY you wouldn't read more from him as he is not going to spend time and effort without getting paid. We may see razbam coming back though.. That's an easy choice for me.

That's not how things wotk at all when the issues are at corporate level, and it's obvious whom they're allegedly wanting to be gone, personally, I think spreading such idle chit chat without a shred of evidence to back the claim up that this is what Razbam want in order to return to DCS is incredibly foolish, as ED corporate can easily double down... and this saga will drag on well into 2025, and maybe beyond. 

Razbams devs who are choppsing off need to shut their mouthes, ED doesn't need Razbam, but Razbam need ED..

[Mike Force Team]

One possible approach is to hope for the best while preparing for the worst.  The ideal solution is ED and RZ resolve their dispute and the working relationship continues. On the the other hand, ED and RZ go their separate ways. It is possible that ED has devoted resources that would support RZ modules should things not work out.

The lack of official news is frustrating and not an effective way to manage customer expectations.  

[Ignition]

3 hours ago, Oban said:

Razbams devs who are choppsing off need to shut their mouthes, ED doesn't need Razbam, but Razbam need ED..

ED needs as much 3rd parties as they can, the level of growth it had it wouldn't be possible alone.

The problem comes when military stuff gets mixed with gaming stuff, now the customers from a game pay the broken plates.

[Shimmergloom667]

On 11/26/2024 at 4:04 AM, Maxthrust said:

Razbam won't touch DCS unless a material change made in ED's management. The rest will follow suit when they also don't get paid.

Not to worry - the other 3rd party devs are being paid, since they don't breach their contractual agreements.

Edited November 28, 2024 by Shimmergloom667

[BIGNEWY]

Folks please keep to the rules, 

keep it DCS related

keep it civil. 

Thank you 

[StarLiner]

46 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Folks please keep to the rules, 

keep it DCS related

keep it civil. 

Thank you 

Hi Mister Bignewy I hope you are having a nice day would you know if ED is taking over the maintenance of issues like the mig19 campaign mentioned above? It has been non-functional for a few years it would be fun to play the Mig19 is a fun airplane 

[BIGNEWY]

1 minute ago, StarLiner said:

Hi Mister Bignewy I hope you are having a nice day would you know if ED is taking over the maintenance of issues like the mig19 campaign mentioned above? It has been non-functional for a few years it would be fun to play the Mig19 is a fun airplane 

Hey Starliner, I am not aware of any plans currently, I will ask but I suspect until the dispute is resolved we wont be able to say much. 

 

[BIGNEWY]

11 hours ago, Maxthrust said:

It's just how things work. If ED terminates BIGNEWY you wouldn't read more from him as he is not going to spend time and effort without getting paid

Correct, Mrs Bignewy would have me out looking for more work  
Fortunately I have a contract which I honour every month and I am rewarded with beer tokens. 

[Horns]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Correct, Mrs Bignewy would have me out looking for more work  
Fortunately I have a contract which I honour every month and I am rewarded with beer tokens. 

Is there any light that you can shed on the comment by Kate on the previous pages from the Russian-language forum...

Edit: As reflected here...

 

 

Edited November 28, 2024 by Horns
Include quote

[Gizmo03]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Horns:

Is there any light that you can shed on the comment by Kate on the previous pages from the Russian-language forum...

That would be awesome since this is already some kind of official statement, isn't it?

[BIGNEWY]

I don't have any new information to share currently. We continue to wait for a resolution to the dispute. 

[StarLiner]

7 hours ago, Gizmo03 said:

That would be awesome since this is already some kind of official statement, isn't it?

I think this statement is the opposite of good, right? This is like saying, yeah Razzy is gone but don't worry the module will be developed in some form, eventually. I want to be wrong because Raz is awesome I want them to continue