waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[javelina1]

too bad you couldn't encapsulate the time/date into a virtual container, and just run it in that...  (sorry, just pulling stuff out of my six....)

[Feverdog]

7 hours ago, NineLine said:

Thanks for your feedback, no need to keep sharing the same thing though, further duplicate comments will simply be removed. Thanks.

As I understand refunds are returned to whomever purchased, in this case, the person who gifted it to you. Best to open a support ticket and talk to them, I am not sure if any exceptions are being made in this case for special circumstances. 

Thats bad for me if comes to it with it being a competition giveaway (but hope it won't come to this)

[Notso]

1 hour ago, Hammer1-1 said:

IMO the more I see people demanding a refund, the more I see developers general interest in even maintaining the module now would look like a fruitless endeavor if its not even going to pay off in the end. Like, what happens next if they do resume work on the module? How many people were refunded, how many people were driven away from the module, how many people were driven away from either/or/both Razbam and ED? That was a lot of reputation on both parties just flushed, currently circling down the drain, and all it took was one party to speak publicly...

And all it it took was one party to stop payments.  Yeah, I wish this had never gone public at all and that it was resolved by now and no one was ever the wiser.  But how long do you expect one party to work for free?  Absolutely both parties have been reputationally harmed by all this.  But, right or wrong, when one party feels they are out of options - AS WELL AS having a fiduciary responsibility to their customers to tell them they are stopping all work and why - what alternative was there?  The ONLY alternative was to work this out in a timely matter.  That did not happen, so here we are.

[Mizzy]

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

Better to let it go now, seems it was just to drum up screenshots at this point. 

I let it go before his (her) last post. I didn't see your post addressing this issue just a response to mine. I have let it go.

Mizzy

[Dginn69]

On 6/17/2024 at 7:17 PM, OnkelFester said:

I am looking forward to the future, hopefully with a resolution that makes everyone happy. Especially us customers. I really want to see the F15E feature complete, and even more so, the Mig23. TBH I don't care who needs to do what, just make it so. 
Cheers.

I could not have said it better myself. 

[Focha]

Thank you @NineLine for the update and for posting the official position. That is a way of ED saying that cares for its customers. Kind regards and hope both parties can achieve an agreement that suits both companies.

[tae.]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

About the system time workaround of course it's not a solution but failures happen and workarounds let you play before official resolution comes. Few months ago there was Oculus drama and then too some used workarounds and kept playing while others decided to wait for a fix. Your call. My radar works while you wait. Fine, but don't say you can't play - it's your decision.

It's harmful or unsecure to change date? Lol, no. I mean I hope you don't play games on your work computer or run DCS on data center server, otherwise what important things do you run while gaming in background?

 

Just because you are unaffected does not mean everybody in the community is unaffected. Many software rely on the correct date being set to function properly, including some important software on my PC that I just simply don't want to have to fix 5+ times a week when I want to fly the F-15E in DCS. There is also some stuff that is impacted badly enough that it is not working at all when it is needed to. Setting the date back and forth so often is not feasible solution for me at all, so I cannot do it. And I also just shouldn't have to do it.. it's not acceptable.

Glad you can enjoy the Strike Eagle, but please at least understand that not everybody is in a situation where the workaround is feasible. I cannot play.

Edited June 19, 2024 by tae.

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Notso said:

And all it it took was one party to stop payments.  Yeah, I wish this had never gone public at all and that it was resolved by now and no one was ever the wiser.  But how long do you expect one party to work for free?  Absolutely both parties have been reputationally harmed by all this.  But, right or wrong, when one party feels they are out of options - AS WELL AS having a fiduciary responsibility to their customers to tell them they are stopping all work and why - what alternative was there?  The ONLY alternative was to work this out in a timely matter.  That did not happen, so here we are.

That's pretty much why this stuff happens I suppose, each side thinks they've run out of options and makes a move they think they have to or have been forced into. It's impossible to second guess without all the facts though, a solution in private would have been great but we are past that now sadly.

42 minutes ago, Focha said:

Thank you @NineLine for the update and for posting the official position. That is a way of ED saying that cares for its customers. Kind regards and hope both parties can achieve an agreement that suits both companies.

You are welcome, I know it doesn't fix things but I hope it makes it easier to find the latest official info.

[Hammer1-1]

14 minutes ago, tae. said:

Glad you can enjoy the Strike Eagle, but please at least understand that not everybody is in a situation where the workaround is feasible.

Dont you have to be at least an admin on your pc in order to do that? Different when its someone elses computer.

1 hour ago, Notso said:

And all it it took was one party to stop payments. 

The more important problem is why, and how come it wasnt resolved immediately? A breech of contract in most cases is a serious offense. If I were to do that renting an apartment, Id be served and/or evicted. I might even be charged for damages.

Edited June 19, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[tae.]

3 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Dont you have to be at least an admin on your pc in order to do that? Different when its someone elses computer.

I think so yeah, another good point.

[Notso]

22 minutes ago, NineLine said:

That's pretty much why this stuff happens I suppose, each side thinks they've run out of options and makes a move they think they have to or have been forced into. It's impossible to second guess without all the facts though, a solution in private would have been great but we are past that now sadly.

100% agree.  But presumably, the 10 months before Ron's announcement was spent trying to resolve it in private - no?

[Notso]

22 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

The more important problem is why, and how come it wasnt resolved immediately? A breech of contract in most cases is a serious offense. If I were to do that renting an apartment, Id be served and/or evicted. I might even be charged for damages.

 

Yeah, that's a good point.  I'm very surprised that a company in "breech of contract" for supposed IP theft would be allowed continued access to the SDK and APIs and allowed/welcomed to continue submitting updates to the modules.  As you said, normally when that happens - you're evicted or locked out pretty quickly.  If that (IP theft) happened in a company - you'd be immediatly locked out of your work computer and marched off the premises on the spot.  So the accusation seems incongruous with the pattern of behavior over the last year.  

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Notso said:

As you said, normally when that happens - you're evicted or locked out pretty quickly.  If that (IP theft) happened in a company - you'd be immediatly locked out of your work computer and marched off the premises on the spot.  So the accusation seems incongruous with the pattern of behavior over the last year.  

In my experience a lawyer dealing with IP issues, this is absolutely NOT the case.  IP disputes between companies often take months or years to resolve, and often have lengthy periods where the parties try to keep working together amicably while they simultaneously address the legal dispute before resorting to getting lawyers involved. As much as everyone would like to think this kind of thing is all about a simple "IP breach" or "failure to pay" the situation is likely to be infinitely more complex with lots of shades of gray -- especially when dealing with cross-border IP/labor/contract issues as is likely the case here.

Edited June 19, 2024 by wombat778

[Notso]

3 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

In my experience a lawyer dealing with IP issues, this is absolutely NOT the case.  IP disputes between companies often take months or years to resolve, and often have lengthy periods where the parties try to keep working together amicably while they simultaneously address the legal dispute before resorting to getting lawyers involved. As much as everyone would like to think this kind of thing is all about a simple "IP breach" or "failure to pay" the situation is likely to be infinitely more complex with lots of shades of gray -- especially when dealing with cross-border IP/labor/contract issues as is likely the case here.

 

That's fair.  However, stopping all payments doesn't seem to indicate "working together amicably" while they address the issue though.....

[NineLine]

53 minutes ago, Notso said:

100% agree.  But presumably, the 10 months before Ron's announcement was spent trying to resolve it in private - no?

I would assume so. Although we are also assuming it started 10 months ago leaving out the reason for the pay stoppage leading to Ron's announcement. So much assuming, and you know what they say about that.

7 minutes ago, Notso said:

That's fair.  However, stopping all payments doesn't seem to indicate "working together amicably" while they address the issue though.....

None of this does and probably why lawyers are involved.

None of this can be looked at in simple terms, if it was simple we wouldn't be here now running up another 94 page thread.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Notso said:

That's fair.  However, stopping all payments doesn't seem to indicate "working together amicably" while they address the issue though.....

First, to be clear, I have absolutely no inside knowledge so this is all pure speculation on my part.  But, think about it this way -- if hypothetically Company A thought Company B was in breach of their agreements regarding IP, and at the same time Company A owed money to Company B, it would be very routine to condition the payment on Company B regaining contractual compliance.  Frankly I would expect any licensing agreement or similar contract to have terms spelling out that sort of remedy, precisely because if Company A pays Company B then suddenly Company B has no real incentive to become compliant. 

6 minutes ago, NineLine said:

None of this can be looked at in simple terms, if it was simple we wouldn't be here now running up another 94 page thread.

This 1000%.  In general, no one pays lawyers to sort out "simple" disputes.  If lawyers are involved, it is because the issues are complicated with good points on both sides where a compromise has to be negotiated.  

Edited June 19, 2024 by wombat778

[NineLine]

47 minutes ago, Notso said:

Yeah, that's a good point.  I'm very surprised that a company in "breech of contract" for supposed IP theft would be allowed continued access to the SDK and APIs and allowed/welcomed to continue submitting updates to the modules.  As you said, normally when that happens - you're evicted or locked out pretty quickly.  If that (IP theft) happened in a company - you'd be immediatly locked out of your work computer and marched off the premises on the spot.  So the accusation seems incongruous with the pattern of behavior over the last year.  

Again, assuming and guessing, key pieces of the issues are missing. The details of the IP claims, etc. When you start discussing and it doesn't add up it means you don't have all the info. Please take note of this, everyone.

[Flapjacks]

Can anyone get ahold of a super rich anonymous donor to throw RB a quick mill, so we can get things rolling again? 

[USA_Recon]

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

I agree, a united front will get more things done. I am not worried about management I doubt there is a lot of mud-slinging going on there. My worry is always the community at large, I don't dare even comment on the RB Discord anymore as the last time I got timed out lol. Anyway, we will see. I hope one day this will just be a bump in the road we all passed by, but as I said, the more angry and mean people get the harder it is to see past that bump. 

Earlier today I didn’t see this, but then after watching the RB discord explode by simply having one person ask about “IP infringement” was just crazy.  No one wants to be around that level of toxicity . 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

I assume they are happy lawyers are involved because they can weather that storm no problem. Maybe RB did something wrong. Maybe they didn't. Regardless they will be the biggest loser in this situation and thats a shame.

Lolol.  I don't believe I have EVER seen a client "happy lawyers are involved." Good IP lawyers can cost $1000+ an hour, money that the parties would much rather use for development, advertising, beer, or frankly anything else than paying lawyers. Also, it seems highly unlikely that ED would publicly claim RB infringed IP without a good faith basis for doing so.  Otherwise, they would open themselves up to claims by RB for defamation.  

[afnav130]

7 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

Lolol.  I don't believe I have EVER seen a client "happy lawyers are involved." Good IP lawyers can cost $1000+ an hour, money that the parties would much rather use for development, advertising, beer, or frankly anything else than paying lawyers. Also, it seems highly unlikely that ED would publicly claim RB infringed IP without a good faith basis for doing so.  Otherwise, they would open themselves up to claims by RB for defamation.  

if I know I can bleed the other party dry and only take a moderate hit, sure as hell I will be happy to do that. I am sure there is some smoke here and there for sure. 

[NineLine]

2 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

if I know I can bleed the other party dry and only take a moderate hit, sure as hell I will be happy to do that. I am sure there is some smoke here and there for sure. 

This comment is not helpful here. Please let's not go down this path again, further silliness like this will be removed.

[RaisedByWolves]

On the next update, will the F-15E receive any updates? Asking for a friend. K. Thx

[spikef22]

Does Ron actually know what IP right Razbam is infringement of? 

[NineLine]

4 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

Does Ron actually know what IP right Razbam is infringement of? 

I am sure everything is clearly laid out for both teams to discuss at this point