investigating Low FPS

[Cgjunk2]

11 hours ago, Slippa said:

 

Other modules perform better, choppers seem to suffer more and I don’t necessarily have to be flying one to suffer.

 

 

I didn’t buy the Chinook yet, but it’s made playing on MP servers with any chinooks around a horrible experience in VR (quest 3) for me.  Once the I make eye contact with one, the frames drop hard.   What’s worse is that they don’t really recover unless I restart DCS.   
 

I love the visual model of this thing.  After all, I’ve had plenty of time to see it one very slow frame at a time   But the details inside and out seem excessive.   I don’t need to actually be able to read the hydraulic level in the sight windows, or the thread count of the seat webbing lol.

[hannibal]

when i request rearm repair, there is a momentary drop of fps..

[Slippa]

1 hour ago, Cgjunk2 said:

 it’s made playing on MP servers with any chinooks around a horrible experience in VR
 

 I’ve had plenty of time to see it one very slow frame at a time   

 Yeah, sorry if I was flying one of those. 

[Rabies]

When entering instant action cold and dark start, the frame rate within the cockpit fluctuate between 10-15 fps. By reducing textures from high to medium, increased to 35-40 fps. It’s a temporary solution but hopefully it’s resolved soon. 
 

I7 13700kf cpu, Z790 Aorus Elite, RTX3080, 64GB 5600 DDR, DCS runs on a dedicated 2TB Samsung Pro SSD. 

Edited August 13, 2024 by Rabies

[dahui]

Setting the Textures to Medium was the solution in my case. Thankyou!

[fjacobsen]

6 hours ago, Nealius said:

Does resizing the textures simply involve reducing the file dimensions, e.g. 4096x4096px to 1024x1024px, and preserving the mipmaps? 

I did so, but not without artifacts, like missing text for the parking brake and air vents handles, missing yellow stripes arounf the Fire extinguisher hndles and so on.

I guess we need someone like Taz or Devrim to properly resize the textures, since my way (simply cutting the size down to half the size) doesn´t work very well.

I cannot understand why developers make such choises. There isn´t really a need for such big texture sizes when the Simultaor engines isn´t better optimised as it is now.

Why keep people on mid levels PC systems from having a good experience, just for being able to make some great static screenshots.

I even consider my system to be above mid level, but still have issues - at least in VR.

[Slippa]

We’re lucky to have people that know how to fix these types of things but we shouldn’t have to rely on those to sort it out.

ED need to sort it. The Chinook’s still very much EA so they should make some adjustments I’d hope.

[Nealius]

2 hours ago, fjacobsen said:

I did so, but not without artifacts, like missing text for the parking brake and air vents handles, missing yellow stripes arounf the Fire extinguisher hndles and so on.

I might play with the cockpit textures later, but after resizing all the external 4k textures to 2k, I gained 10fps and much less severe stuttering in 2D without any noticable artifacting (that I can tell so far). Will have to try VR and see if anything changed.

[fjacobsen]

44 minutes ago, Nealius said:

I might play with the cockpit textures later, but after resizing all the external 4k textures to 2k, I gained 10fps and much less severe stuttering in 2D without any noticable artifacting (that I can tell so far). Will have to try VR and see if anything changed.

If You delete You fx/metaschaders2 cache files, then the artifacts will appear. It will look right until then, but only until the next DCS patch where the shaders are deleted during the install.

[bozflyer]

On 8/10/2024 at 3:06 AM, Realsville said:

VR performance in this module is 10-15 FPS lower than all my other modules that run at about 68FPS on Quest 3.   Including Huey, Apache, Kiowa, Hind, Blackhawk Mod, and several jets.  Can’t afford to loose this much FPS, almost unplayable.  Same settings and same map.  Did repair, cleanup, deleted save game shaders and FXO files and no difference. Any ideas?  Thanks.

 

Me as well, quest 3 nvidia 3080Ti 12 gb i9-990 K running DCS word MT edition, really surprised about awful performance. Last but not least, seat position view  in VR is terrible , it is too mauch ahead respect to the seat , sensation is to have the stick into my stomach

 

Any updates / infos about these two items from Eagle Dynamics ?

 

thk to all

 

 

[fjacobsen]

Maybe the fix would be to have the option in the special menu for the Ch-47F to select reduced textures.

This way the nice high res textures can be used in pancake mode for those with beefy systems, and the lower res used by low-mid level, as well as VR users.

All being taken care of - all happy.

[Cgjunk2]

15 hours ago, Cgjunk2 said:

 

I didn’t buy the Chinook yet, but it’s made playing on MP servers with any chinooks around a horrible experience in VR (quest 3) for me.  Once the I make eye contact with one, the frames drop hard.   What’s worse is that they don’t really recover unless I restart DCS.   
 

I love the visual model of this thing.  After all, I’ve had plenty of time to see it one very slow frame at a time   But the details inside and out seem excessive.   I don’t need to actually be able to read the hydraulic level in the sight windows, or the thread count of the seat webbing lol.

So…this odd.  I’ve been running DLAA/DLSS (performance or balanced) ever since it came out, because it was so much smoother.  The ghosting sucked, but it was smoooooth.

But DCS has been running so bad for me since the Hook came out.   Last night I almost decided to log off the server when people started spawning into Chinooks, just out of pure anticipation of frustration and nausea.  
 

Then it occured to me that I missed being able to read the displays in my F18 like I could pre-dlss days.   I figured things can’t get any worse, so I switched to MSAA x4.   Could you believe that stuttering I get when I’m flying next to a Chinook went away!?!?  Well, that’s exactly what happened!!! Crisp image, and no more weird stutters or constant image hitching when I turn my head with my Quest 3.  I even flew a little aerobatic dance in my Huey with a Chinook!

So now, MSAA (x4!!!) is smoother?????  How does that make sense?  My oh my, how the turns have tabled!  

There’s definitely something up with the current build, and I don’t think it’s the Chinooks fault.  My apologies to for casting any aspersions towards, what is likely,  a very fine module.   

By the way, I reserve the right to come back tomorrow and complain about crappy performance.  In the last couple of weeks I’ve celebrated victory over bad frames at least three times after applying different changes or recommendations.  All were spectacular successes (especially “run in full screen”) until they weren’t. 

[Slippa]

I feel your pain .

might try your spell - 4 spoonfuls of MSAA, see how it goes. 

[Karman]

It's boring give me back my fps.. Quick

[Cgjunk2]

4 hours ago, fjacobsen said:

Maybe the fix would be to have the option in the special menu for the Ch-47F to select reduced textures.

This way the nice high res textures can be used in pancake mode for those with beefy systems, and the lower res used by low-mid level, as well as VR users.

All being taken care of - all happy.

I think DCS is approaching a point where well made and optimized “lite” textures will reap them real long term reward.     Sure, some people’s computers are spuds, but when gargantuan file sizes start to affect relatively recent computers it starts to hurt.  

By enjoyable, I mean “lite” textures that don’t destroy instrument legibility.  That retain sharpness in Vr despite less details.  Basically, just plain optimized.  It will help everyone, not just those running Idaho’s finest.   

There is a sustainability angle for ED to spend a lot of resources creating optimized/enjoyable ways for people to keep using their payed-off hardware.  Happy customers buy more modules and spend money on peripherals instead of computing power.   More peripherals yield a more committed customer base.  All this results in less electronic garbage as well in terms of the environment (this comes into focus the older you get and you have a huge pile of old computers in the corner).

The opposite of this is a customer base that wonders if the house of cards is going to fall, leading to less confidence in spending money on anything related to flight simming.  

There’s the expectation that flight sims always require the most bleeding edge hardware to make everything work.  But if one thinks about that critically, that expectation was set by Micr*soft.   Their FS business model gave them little incentive to optimize software.  Just move on to the next FS version and collect sales, and enjoy additional profits of Windows OS sales when people bought better computers.  That’s wasteful of money, and wasteful of opportunities to help improve the art of development.
 

ED and DCS operate under a different business model.  One that I quite like for various reasons.   Make and maintain an environment where their own and 3rd party products can be used.   Their environment, and playability, is the paramount goal.  To that end, ED would reap long term benefits from having every single new module go through an internal, tough as nails, “optimization control board.”  One that would strike fear into any developer submitting files for review.  Just kidding, it doesn’t have to strike actual fear ;).  But seriously, fear works.   I kid! I kid!   

I’m in no way a developer of software or 3d modeler.  But like any craft, I would guess skill in development is not based on how overbuilt something can be made, how much power it has, or complexity, etc…but rather on how well it’s put together to do the job it has to do.   Effort expended on unusable details is always wasted.   I admit that development for something like DCS is definitely a complex thing. And credit where credit is due…for every stumble, DCS has always had corresponding moments of glory.  
 

I yield my remaining time to those in line for the soapbox.  

Edited August 13, 2024 by Cgjunk2

[White Eagle]

I also have extremely low unplayable FPS in the Chinook, in the cockpit its about 10-20 fps where for example in the Apache its over 100 fps.

Switching between F1 and F2 views also causes the game to hang for about 20 sec.

I have found NOT running the MultiThreaded application just the regular I get much better FPS/performance in the cockpit. Does anyone else experience this?

Edited August 14, 2024 by White Eagle
Not consistent that non MT has higher performance

[Mav]

Just throwing my two cents, I play with a 1080Ti, quest 2 VR. Had some microstutters but switched to 30 Hz with 1.2 pixel density set in Oculus Tray tool. Also deleted Fx0 and metashaders in Saved Games\DCS. I have no issues with performance and it plays very well. Only issue now is VRAM being used to a horrific extent. 

[slowmover]

I tried the cold start from instant action at Afghanistan map and i was having huge lag and low fps around 20.when I took off I had 50fps when usually have 70-80.
This test went on VR my specs I7-10700k 64gb ram 4080super and 1TB nvme headset Reverb G2.

 

[Cgjunk2]

On 8/13/2024 at 12:29 PM, Cgjunk2 said:

, so I switched to MSAA x4.   Could you believe that stuttering I get when I’m flying next to a Chinook went away!?!?  Well, that’s exactly what happened!!! Crisp image, and no more weird stutters or constant image hitching when I turn my head with my Quest 3.  I even flew a little aerobatic dance in my Huey with a Chinook!

By the way, I reserve the right to come back tomorrow and complain about crappy performance.  In the last couple of weeks I’ve celebrated victory over bad frames at least three times after applying different changes or recommendations.  All were spectacular successes (especially “run in full screen”) until they weren’t. 

Hello, I’m back lol.  The improvements to MSAA only lasted that one session.   Second day started out good, but once things get heavy in the server, frames drop and my Quest 3 starts to have the same infuriating hitching stutters when I turn my head.  Even restarting DCS, and dropping down to Atari level graphics didn’t stop the head tracking stutters.  But on the positive side, seeing a Chinook in frame did not make it worse!
 

 

[Darcaem]

38 minutes ago, Cgjunk2 said:

Hello, I’m back lol.  The improvements to MSAA only lasted that one session.   Second day started out good, but once things get heavy in the server, frames drop and my Quest 3 starts to have the same infuriating hitching stutters when I turn my head.  Even restarting DCS, and dropping down to Atari level graphics didn’t stop the head tracking stutters.  But on the positive side, seeing a Chinook in frame did not make it worse!
 

 

Related to this... Has anyone had this weird feeling that there is a certain degree of "randomness" in the performance since the latest patches? I mean, the very same mission, the very same specs. the very same NVidia panel config... and sometimes performance is acceptable, but the next session in unplayable again.

On the other hand, I do feel I am going a little bit crazy lately with all this performance issues XD

[Dangerzone]

5 hours ago, Cgjunk2 said:

Hello, I’m back lol.  The improvements to MSAA only lasted that one session.   Second day started out good, but once things get heavy in the server, frames drop and my Quest 3 starts to have the same infuriating hitching stutters when I turn my head.  Even restarting DCS, and dropping down to Atari level graphics didn’t stop the head tracking stutters.  But on the positive side, seeing a Chinook in frame did not make it worse!

From my testing, I don't believe the issue is GPU based, but CPU based. I have a 4090 that I'm running on very conservative settings while trying to sort this out. OpenXR toolkit shows I have 99 overhead on the GPU, and I believe it with those settings. Yet I keep getting stutters. It shows that I'm CPU bound from time to time when those stutters occur. 

I've noticed doing some things to help dedicate the CPU to DCS has helped a little. (Project Lasso, P-Cores only, turning off CPU Core Parking, etc) - but it's not a complete solution. What it did tell me though is that the issue seems to be CPU related. DCS seems to be doing some intense CPU work - and that's definitely having issues with stutters, etc. 

In addition to this - I also seem to have one CPU pegged at 100%  and another close to it... just sitting at the main screen. (This is with the latest update that dropped a couple of hours ago).

VR

 

2D

Edited August 15, 2024 by Dangerzone

[doedkoett]

6 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

From my testing, I don't believe the issue is GPU based, but CPU based.

Yes there is definitively something related to the CPU. I had serious FPS problems with the "Hook" too, but I deleted the shaders and set textures to medium, and now it´s mostly flyable. But then sometimes, for some unknown reason, the FPS drops. I checked the performance monitor in the task manager and saw a sharp drop in CPU load (from 25% to about 20%). But the funny thing was, that when giving the CPU graph a hard stare, the FPS returned, for a while. When they dropped again, I alt-tabbed out and in again, and got them back. I have an Intel 14700K, and when playing DCS it runs at around 25-ish %, which I think is rather low? I am thinking maybe it is related to the E-cores problem? 

[Dangerzone]

4 hours ago, doedkoett said:

Yes there is definitively something related to the CPU. I had serious FPS problems with the "Hook" too, but I deleted the shaders and set textures to medium, and now it´s mostly flyable. But then sometimes, for some unknown reason, the FPS drops. I checked the performance monitor in the task manager and saw a sharp drop in CPU load (from 25% to about 20%). But the funny thing was, that when giving the CPU graph a hard stare, the FPS returned, for a while. When they dropped again, I alt-tabbed out and in again, and got them back. I have an Intel 14700K, and when playing DCS it runs at around 25-ish %, which I think is rather low? I am thinking maybe it is related to the E-cores problem? 

You need to view the individual CPUs using resource monitor. 

Even at 20% one core could be working at 100% and make DCS stutter. While multi threading has been introduced to DCS, it’s a WIP and many things are still all routing through the primary thread from what I can tell. 
 

E-Cores are another matter. Use project lasso to restrict DCS to P Cores only to get around that. (I’ve already done that before testing and posting my results). 

[Karman]

Since the last pacth update.. It's little better but not good. Give me back my fps  

low fps.. After clean update ( Clean Up / Repair and Update.. Fxo and Metashaders2 empty )

I wanted to buy the Afghanistan Map and the F16, but i will wait to see if the performance improves over time..

Edited August 15, 2024 by Karman

[Rogue Trooper]

I find the FPS not too bad in DLAA/DLSS, The Cab (Hook) is about on par with the KA-50 III & Kiowa... perhaps a tiny touch better in both multiplayer and single player. All 3 are not great in free flight over large cities.

All 3 are no where near the complex Apache's superb FPS performance.

I keep my Nvidia drivers up to date as DLAA and DLSS are Nvidia.