On speed around the turn carrier landing

[markturner1960]

I noticed tonight flying Banklers mission that I was marked down for being fast as I turned from abeam. I was perfectly trimmed for on speed on the downwind, but in the turn, your speed increases and it’s almost impossible to keep on speed and maintain the correct parameters of descent rate, AOB and position. As you roll out on the groove and come back to around 140kts, it’s all good. 
 

I was wondering if you should trim for on speed around the turn, ( have not tried doing this, but would anticipate it would make it difficult to be correctly trimmed on roll out for the groove, as time would be limited ) rather  than just accept you will not be on speed round the turn. Surely it’s the groove that matters, not the turn to it? 

[Hulkbust44]

It's the groove that matters yes, but you should have no problem maintaining on-speed in the turn.

I just grabbed a random video, but here's a guy demonstrating the turn on-speed.

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[AndyJWest]

What matters is AoA. If a mission is 'marking you down' for speed, rather than AoA, it is wrong.

[Hulkbust44]

What matters is AoA. If a mission is 'marking you down' for speed, rather than AoA, it is wrong.

It said he was fast, which is how you refer to AoA below on-speed.

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[AndyJWest]

3 minutes ago, Hulkbust44 said:

It said he was fast, which is how you refer to AoA below on-speed.
 

"in the turn, your speed increases". If you maintain the correct AoA, you will need to increase speed in the turn, but that shouldn't be marked down. 

[Cab]

39 minutes ago, markturner1960 said:

...in the turn, your speed increases and it’s almost impossible to keep on speed and maintain the correct parameters of descent rate, AOB and position. As you roll out on the groove and come back to around 140kts, it’s all good. 

As has already been said above, fly AOA not airspeed. If the mission is designed properly, it will be grading you on AOA when it says you're fast.

[markturner1960]

Thanks, to clarify, the mission critique said I was fast (below on speed) but I was also faster than the 140 knots downwind speed round the turn as to maintain rate of descent, I had to fly faster. So I should concentrate more on the AoA, do you guys trim to do this around the turn? I have been getting it bang on on the downwind, then not touching the trim again and controlling it with small amounts of stick and throttle

[_Spad_]

Trim for AoA and throttle to control your descent rate. Don't worry too much about your IAS.

[norman99]

Once you're trimmed for on-speed AOA, that trim setting is the same for all bank angles (within reason). As you bank around the landing pattern, to maintain altitude or the same descent path as with wings level, your speed must increase, and therefore, thrust must be increased. Nothing changes with the trim.

[Phantom711]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Hulkbust44:

I just grabbed a random video, but here's a guy demonstrating the turn on-speed.

Yeah…except that the FM changes that were implemented at some point last year changed that, so your 1 year old vid is probably from before that.

 

vor 16 Stunden schrieb norman99:

your speed must increase, and therefore, thrust must be increased. Nothing changes with

Yes. But your FPM will not be in the E-bracket anymore during the turn. Try it!

 

EDIT: Let me rephrase that: your FPM is not perfectly centered in the E-bracket, if that‘s what you did on downwind.

Edited January 10 by Phantom711

[Hulkbust44]

Yes. But your FPM will not be in the E-bracket anymore during the turn. Try it!
 
EDIT: Let me rephrase that: your FPM is not perfectly centered in the E-bracket, if that‘s what you did on downwind.

Yeah I just flew around for a bit and certainly had no problem keeping perfect on-speed AoA (solid donut) until banking past 30 degrees. Sure if you want it perfect give it a single tap nose up, then back down once you roll outside, but it should certainly be well within the E-backet at all times.

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I noticed tonight flying Banklers mission that I was marked down for being fast as I turned from abeam. I was perfectly trimmed for on speed on the downwind, but in the turn, your speed increases and it’s almost impossible to keep on speed and maintain the correct parameters of descent rate, AOB and position. As you roll out on the groove and come back to around 140kts, it’s all good. 
 
I was wondering if you should trim for on speed around the turn, ( have not tried doing this, but would anticipate it would make it difficult to be correctly trimmed on roll out for the groove, as time would be limited ) rather  than just accept you will not be on speed round the turn. Surely it’s the groove that matters, not the turn to it? 

Could you post a video with the control indicator enabled?

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[markturner1960]

Will be practicing tomorrow, will see if I can post a video

[ex81]

Looking for banklers Case1 Recovry mission. Where to download it ? please

 

[rob10]

2 hours ago, ex81 said:

Looking for banklers Case1 Recovry mission. Where to download it ? please

Go to MISSIONS AND CAMPAIGNS subforum just above here and search BANKLER and you'll find it.

 

Edited February 4 by rob10

[ex81]

Got it Thanx

[CBStu]

I certainly don't claim to be a trapping master but...I get AoA set in the downwind leg and don't touch trim again. Doing the final 180 turn, you need to increase speed or the loss of lift caused by the bank angle will drop you too far. I primarily use throttle to control altitude but will also roll out 5-10deg of bank for a few seconds to help maintain high enough altitude. It has been several years but I have watched live over the shoulder trap videos in real FA-18s quite a bit. One thing I noticed is that throttle is being moved almost constantly. To me it is a dance. Throttle is moving, stick is moving through the entire 180. Note also, that as wings go level, you need to pull back on the throttle or you will quickly be high. I start pull back at the same instant I move the stick. IE, if your bank has been about 30deg, pull on the throttle as you get to 25deg. If you wait until 5 or 0deg, you will go high. I love Banklers and use Shift+R to reboot for another flight as soon as I see the score. It seems to be a perishable skill. If I have been doing a lot of land based missions I notice it takes me maybe 5 tries to do a halfway decent trap.

[Bankler]

On 1/9/2025 at 11:04 PM, Cab said:

As has already been said above, fly AOA not airspeed. If the mission is designed properly, it will be grading you on AOA when it says you're fast.

On 1/9/2025 at 10:31 PM, AndyJWest said:

What matters is AoA. If a mission is 'marking you down' for speed, rather than AoA, it is wrong.

Correct. And for clarity, the mission will say "fast" if the AoA is off.

(The mission doesn't measure airspeed)

[Mav87th]

Absolutely an awesome mission to begin learning the trap. I am a total rookie and might be able to get a 25 in score or a bit higher if I am not hitting the 1 wire.

A few points that has helped me:

• On speed and altitude at the break is a given
• prolong your break from over the bow to around .5nm in front of the carrier. Helps a lot in the beginning on your downwind leg.
• Speed brake in the break is unnecessary, bleed the speed around in the turn and around the exit of the break you can go gear down and flaps down
• around 8-10 hits on the trim nose up and then hold the FPM on the horizon with stick while the speed bleed further down from 200 to around 140ish
• DO NOT get closer then 1.2nm on downwind
• Add throttle JUST before rolling into the final turn from 600ft at the end of the downwind
• use throttle and bank angle to stay on speed
• Throttle IDLE when you roll out in the grove - be READY to catch the on speed again as it drops down.

and run the mission with Turbulence OFF - I found it near impossible to not float ungracefully over all wires..... looks like the turbulence is a little overdone if you loo at videos of landings.

ps. if the above still contains grammatical or spelling errors please let me know so I do not offend other users

Edited March 11 by Mav87th

[t1mb0b]

When is brake break?, and throttle off throttle idle?

There really is no need to dilute or dumb down Wags mini videos if you want to fly the procedure properly.

 

[Mav87th]

I'm sorry if you got confused from the grammatical errors there t1mb0b, not my intention and it is now corrected.

There is really no need to dumb down on other members posts if you want to write you own guide or learning points to the OP. I was simply stating a few points i discovered flying the pattern, and not all of them are in Wags videos, some are from other videos others are own observations.

 

Again - my deepest apologies for the gross misuse of the English language

[Nealius]

On 2/23/2025 at 12:00 AM, Mav87th said:

DO NOT get closer then 1.2nm on downwind

Even at 1.2nm can be dicey. It's kind of weird because 1.2nm (IIRC) is within the prescribed procedure yet if you follow prescribed procedure of max 30 AoB in the groove turn while on-speed in DCS you will overshoot the LA every single time (WoD 27kts down the angle). I always need a more aggressive 35-40 AoB during the first 90 then I can settle into 30 in the last half of the groove to avoid a "wings" grade.

Edited May 13 by Nealius

[Tenkom]

Does anyone use ATC when landing? For me it makes everything easier except the touchdown itself. I seem to overshoot the wires more easily when using it. But I have more practice without ATC so that might get better.

Especially maintaining a stable descent rate is much easier with ATC.

[Muchocracker]

i hate using it on anything but case 3's in mode 1 ACLS just because it fights all of my muscle memory for flying on speed.