Flight Dynamic Engine

[RvETito]

Don't forget we are still waiting for the patch which is supposed to fix some of the bugs in the autopilot eg yaw and also the trim.:music_whistling:

 

As EB said, the team is not aware of any bugs in the autopilot's heading channel and the trim system in the release version. The patch will add more features to those elements, no need to fix anything.

 

Hello!

 

This will be my fianl post to this thread!

 

One thing I've learned is that when people start taking personnal offence to comments about imaginary people in a "GAME" as a reference to real life! It's time to leave it alone!

 

I must say this though! That's Like way out there! Whew! I think some should take a break from the sim world! Wholly crap!

 

It has been a good thread though! from some! I'm glad I could restrain myself from the personnal comments and attacks!

 

Sincerley: Oldflyer2

 

P.S. Have a great time with the Sim! can't wait for the patch! Hope it fixes alot of the bugs! Great Sim for sure!

 

Well this so called "GAME" is a result of a years of hard joint international effort. I'm proud to be part of this effort and when someone steps into the scene and shouts aloud "What you've done is all wrong!" I expect to see some good argumented statements about what he (you) thinks is wrong. I'm sorry but I have to say that you failed to make any valid point of anything "wrong".

[SUBS17]

In addition to the original trimmer implementation, in which control input is disabled for 1 second to allow the player to quickly re-center his controls, a new method is included in version 1.0.1, using a different re-centering logic. In the new method, control input is disabled until the player returns the controls to their neutral position. This allows the player to re-center his controls smoothly, minimizing unwanted control input.

 

 

This is why some people may think there is control issues as if you don't release controls it doubles the pitch. eg -10deg trim if no release = -20deg.

 

And

 

The Yaw (heading) autopilot channel functionality has also been redesigned. If the yaw rate is under 3 deg/sec. when the trimmer button is released, the autopilot will stabilize the helicopter heading. If the yaw rate is greater than 3 deg/sec., the autopilot will stabilize the yaw rate to maintain the turn.

 

IRL to fly straight the bubble below the Artificial Horizon which indicates yaw must be centred otherwise you are flying sideways. Now the AP does not centre the YAW but after the patch hopefully it does. It may not be a bug as such for those who don't use pedals but for those who do it can cause problems.:doh:

[Distiler]

Spin it the way you wish, but to the regular customer eyes, HDG autopilot is bugged, mistakenly programmed or whatever you want to call it. Needed a fix the very day DCS:Ka-50 went out to the market. It frustrated me so much to the point of leaving the sim for months XD

Edited July 27, 2009 by Distiler

[EvilBivol-1]

Now the AP does not centre the YAW but after the patch hopefully it does.

The AP is not supposed to center Yaw, but hold the aircraft in its trimmed position. If you trim it with some sideslip, it will keep the sideslip.

Spin it the way you wish, but to the regular customer eyes, HDG autopilot is bugged, mistakenly programmed or whatever you want to call it.

Not sure why you believe it's spin when the idea was to provide you with accurate information. If it was a bug, we would have called it a bug as we have done in many other cases where it was appropriate.

Edited July 27, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[Distiler]

Oh well, yes, you say "The heading trim logic has also been redesigned". I understand ED got wrong information at first about hdg AP behaviour, but the thing I don't like is the attitude of "not aware of any bugs", "no need to fix anything" and all this seems clearly like trying to spin things off, because to the eyes of customers it all goes down to the same: fix, patch, etc.

 

I don't like such attitude in software devs.

 

Oh well, nevermind, I need sleep XD

Edited July 27, 2009 by Distiler

[GGTharos]

You're the one spinning things. The definition of a bug is actually reasonably specific. EB said things exactly as they are.

[EvilBivol-1]

Oh well, yes, you say "The heading trim logic has also been redesigned". I understand ED got wrong information at first about hdg AP behaviour, but the thing I don't like is the attitude of "not aware of any bugs", "no need to fix anything" and all this seems clearly like trying to spin things off, because to the eyes of customers it all goes down to the same: fix, patch, etc.

 

I don't like such attitude in software devs.

 

Oh well, nevermind.

:huh:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=43548

[wombat778]

because to the eyes of customers it all goes down to the same: fix, patch, etc.

 

I don't agree at all. There is a big difference between a "bug" and a feature redesign. A bug is where something does not work as it was intended/designed, generally as a result of a programming error. Here, the heading AP works as it was designed to work at the time it was programmed. Thus, it is not a "bug". What has changed, apparently, is that new information came to light that means that the heading AP should have been designed to do something different. Hence, the patch has "redesigned" the heading AP.

 

Personally, I think ED has it exactly right, as I far prefer that they use correct terminology for the patch (e.g., "bug", "feature", "redesign" as appropriate) rather than just arbitrarily calling everything a "bug".

[RedTiger]

My standard response to posts like the OP from new forum members will now be:

 

"Alright, who put you up to this? How well they paying you? Are they hiring?"

[Oldflyer2]

hello all!

 

Ok I lied! I just could not resist in commenting on how great the reponse has been to this thread.

 

I feel it has really brought out some HONEST feelings about the Sim!

 

Now I know I started this of with a real harsh statement about the flight dynamics. And alot of the people involved with the ED team, feel I am an ass**** for doing so! Well, thats what forums are for Right? And it was harsh, but it got things really going.

 

Now I am doing alot of research on the flight dynamics of the Ka-50 Attach Helicoptor on the web! and other sources! This Awesome Beast of a Killer! Sorry! helicoptors just make me goo all over myself!....LOL

 

I just have to post this video I found! maybe you all have seen it, but It Made me roll on the floor with uncontrollable laughter!

 

 

Now to redefine my original point!

 

The hardest thing a delveloper has in making a game, is making it feel real right? Otherwise it would be like in the old days where things felt like they we're mounted on a stick. Remember those days?

 

To make things feel real he has to design an algorythm'(s) that takes real flight data, and real force models and turn this all into a flight model that Simulates as close as possible, the flight charatistics of the aircraft he's modeling!

 

Into this there also has to be a certain amount of looseness, Or randomness for lack of a better term, to help simulate the real feel! And this is very hard task to do! VERY HARD! I don't think NASA even has it down 100%...LOL Just Kidding!

 

But anyway! In the next few weeks I will try to put up real examples of the point I was trying to make here!

 

It also has Nothing to do with the trim system or the AP autopilot settings or the stabilation systems of the helicoptor! period! that is not my argument and never was! I know how to trim it and fly it! really! Did it the first day I got it.

 

So I hope the debate goes on, and I will for sure be watching the thread with anticipation! In between printing out 2 more complete copies of the PDF manual for some friends, After they seen my awesome copy, they just had to have one! I'm just such a nice guy that way...LOL

 

It's getting really good here!

 

Sincerely: Oldflyer2

 

P.S. To Ruprecht: Thanks mate! you made me feel welcome!

Edited July 28, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[HansRoaming]

Real heli examples are a must as an RC chopper to be the same as a BS would have to scale to power to weight and also fly in a chamber to make the Reynolds number identical for the same two craft. An RC chopper 'sees' the air to be a lot thicker than the larger KA-50.

 

To me though if a real Ka-50 pilot says 'This is good' then that's good enough for me.

[Frazer]

First of all, I don't think people think you are an ass****. Everyone just wants to convince you are wrong very badly ;)

 

About the feeling of a simulator I want to say one thing.

 

Remember that we are flying a very realistic simulator with "toy sticks".

 

What a sim developer can't do is controlling what stick you use to fly. This is VERY important for how the simulator feels (stick arm length & pressure).

I'm sure, if you would load DCS BS in a military simulator pit, it will be extremely close to the real thing.

Edited July 28, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[EvilBivol-1]

Now I know I started this of with a real harsh statement about the flight dynamics. And alot of the people involved with the ED team, feel I am an ass**** for doing so! Well, thats what forums are for Right?

We do not, but in any case the forums are most certainly NOT for people to be ass****. That's what warnings are for.

So I hope the debate goes on, and I will for sure be watching the thread with anticipation! In between printing out 2 more complete copies of the PDF manual for some friends, After they seen my awesome copy, they just had to have one! I'm just such a nice guy that way...LOL

 

It's getting really good here!

No offense or anything, but so far this thread hasn't provided anything new besides the concept of using RC helicopters to judge the realism of the Black Shark FM. The FM/AP has been the most heavily discussed topic on this forum since the release of the simulaiton in the fall of last year. Please browse and search the forums and you will find pages upon pages of discussions.

 

You can start here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=39015

 

We certainly appreciate your purchase and interest in the product, but understand that so far it appears that you are under some mistaken ideas about the realism of the FM.

 

 

To all, mind your language. Thank you.

Edited July 28, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[Oldflyer2]

Hey!

 

Yes I absolutly! Agree. I do study this stuff. We study all sorts of Fluid, Air, and force dynamics. It's a must if you build prototype R/C designs. Like this flying Lawnmower here! this is so funny! This is Radical for sure!

 

 

Some of my flying friends and I have this Motto! if we can put an engine on it! we'll try to fly it...LOL

Example of the importance of the Reynolds number

 

If an airplane wing needs testing, one can make a scaled down model of the wing and test it in a wind tunnel using the same Reynolds number that the actual airplane is subjected to. If for example the scale model has linear dimensions one quarter of full size, the flow velocity would have to be increased four times to obtain similar flow behaviour.

Alternatively, tests could be conducted in a water tank instead of in air (provided the compressibility effects of air are not significant). As the kinematic viscosity of water is around 13 times less than that of air at 15 °C, in this case the scale model would need to be about one thirteenth the size in all dimensions to maintain the same Reynolds number, assuming the full-scale flow velocity was used.

The results of the laboratory model will be similar to those of the actual plane wing results. Thus there is no need to bring a full scale plane into the lab and actually test it. This is an example of "dynamic similarity".

Reynolds number is important in the calculation of a body's drag characteristics. A notable example is that of the flow around a cylinder. Above roughly 3×106 Re the drag coefficient drops considerably. This is important when calculating the optimal cruise speeds for low drag (and therefore long range) profiles for airplanes.

[Panzertard]

Hey oldflyer - did you ever try using all three damper channels as explained here?

Or had a look at Evil's posts here?

 

But again - you seem to not want to hear that some people fly military helo's, answered you in this thread, and they say it's accurate enough. And they also suggest that you really cannot compare it with R/C due to the mass/inertia.

Are you sure you read all the replies? :)

[159th_Viper]

........I for one know, for reasons I will not get into here for I know most will think I am full of it and making things up. But I can tell you this! the flight dynamics in DCS when played in Sim Mode are ALL WRONG!

 

There is no way that this helicoptor repsonds to the outside weather, wind or any other forces in this manner, things are way off! The control input is way too soft and spongy. The reaction time too input is way off! If real helicoptors handled in the way that this dynamic engine depicts it to be!

No smart, life loving pilot would fly them!........

 

 

Your Original Post detailing the Minor Inconvenience suffered at the Hands of the Whirly-Bird. Through much debate and the like, we managed to get you to post a Track, substantiating your experiences of the above.

 

We then analysed the track, and aside from time in the Cockpit, the Major Contributing Factor to the behaviour of the Helo at your Control was the Disengagement of the Lateral Dampener at the outset of the Flight. You just cannot be doing that...........;)

 

.....It also has Nothing to do with the trim system or the AP autopilot settings or the stabilation systems of the helicoptor! period! that is not my argument and never was! I know how to trim it and fly it! really! Did it the first day I got it.....

 

Quite Right........It is not the Argument. On the Contrary, it is the Solution to your Argument!

 

With all due respect, If you knew how to trim and fly, why disengage the Dampener? Have you attempted the same flight with the Lateral Dampener engaged? Did you experience the same issues as before?

 

Not even going to touch the Trim system and attendant discussion. Just curious why you still stand by your OP after solutions to your comments/troubles were proffered :)

[Groove]

They make the trimmer function easier for noobs like me and people complain about it. :D

[pyates2104]

In answerer to the original comment on dynamics

 

I find the flight dynamics engine in the sim outstanding. Model aircraft handle very differently from full size ones, (I've flown both) this is understandable as fluid dynamic theory does not scale linearly. I've also flown some commercial simulators and DCS compares very well.

 

Basically this is the best flight dynamics experience you can get short of spending a few million on a full motion commercial simulator. Compared to FSX and X-plane, its on a different planet.

[mvsgas]

OldFlyer2

Do not feel attack, not need to defend yourself here sir. I do not think anyone is trying to attack you or prove you wrong, we just want to pass information. The main thing to take out of the forums is entertainment. Believe me, I spend hours just reading post (I know so because my wife reminds me once a day how much time I spend here :D), I have learned a lot. Have fun and read/ask/comment away, just follow the rules of course. No feathers are ruffle nor feeling hurt, is just hard to convey joking or sarcastic thought while writing

(specially me, since I can not even spell, let alone form a rational comprehensive sentence nor thought)

 

Also, keep in mind I suffer from "aviation geekenes" I do not know anything about aircraft, but in my mind, I think I know and that is the problems. I have to correct people on subjects I know nothing about, I do not mean to, I just do :doh: See you around.

 

PS

I almost forgot to ask

Have you tried any of the techniques the guys here have commented on? Do you still suffer the same problems after learning this techniques? Have you tried to better your proficiency in the KA-50?

Edited July 28, 2009 by mvsgas

[LoBiSoMeM]

Flight Dynamic Engine...

 

Well, sometimes I just takeoff with FD engaged and begin really low level flight over a major city (low level = below 5m...), just entering agressive hovers, side and backward flight, pushing civil cars with the Ka-50 belly, etc... a lot of stupid things just for fun!

 

I'm using an old Thrustmaster joystick with a tinny throttle slider... and with "home-made" loose springs... a personal touch I like to cheap joy and helli sims...

 

When I think in complaint about the physics in the game, I just scratch the belly of the Ka-50 on the ground or another object, or remember ground effect and the inertia when doing a hard break...

 

When I think about complaint about the input, I remember how I can - with my cheap and "modded" joy - circle one single infantry unit and kill it with precise shooting, or enter in a hover behind a building easy and fast...

 

Any complaint about these features in DCS:BS must be motivated - as said - by a input hardware problem or lack of training.

 

And I have one RC coaxial heli! LOL!

[Frazer]

As you are from Brazil LoBiSoMeM and you like flying low, I got a great video for you :)

You might have seen it before, but this is just amazing :joystick:

 

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Caribougnal/1694/

 

The dream of every helicopter pilot :D

Edited July 28, 2009 by Frazer

[press]

Speaking of flight dynamics.

 

Anyone tried to hover near a stationary Ka-50? The blades of the stationary Ka-50 do not react to the downdraft from the Ka-50 hovering near by. On the other hand, the blades from the stationary Ka-50 will react to the environmental wind.

[RvETito]

Rotor wake is not modeled.

[Arclight]

Rotor wake is not modeled.

See? FM sucks. :D

 

I'm kidding, I'm kidding, stop hitting me! :chair: ;)

[GGTharos]

The beatings shall continue even after morale is restored ... as a precaution ;)