Flight Dynamic Engine

[th3flyboy]

Unless I encounter a problem I just use tacview...

[Oldflyer2]

Hey Folks

 

First I would like to thank the member Zembla for the tip on the folder permissions! That is exactly what was wrong in Win 7 RC 64 Bit! Thanks

 

Now that I can get a track up on here I hope I made one that shows my concerns about the flight model! Because some of you have asked for it.

 

Well I made this at about 3:00 Am so forgive my tired flying skills but I did want to get this up here so I can get some input.

 

Now in this track I first get my aircraft trimmed out pretty tight! Then I do some silly but not outrage goofy flying around the airfield.

 

But by the time I get to the last few landings and take offs and the final resulting CRASH! What I get is that all my trims are out of wack!

 

Now my thoughts are this. That once I get my aircraft all trimmed out! why should that change except for some outside forces such as wind or turbulance that by all means should change it.

 

Other than that I would think that something on my aircraft is loose! ie linkage or hydraulcs leaking, or some sort of severe wear! Something.

 

Maybe I am wrong in this but I feel I should be able to come back to some reasonable center point on my controls. Maybe I'm all wrong in this thinking!

 

If that is the case I would think that any aircraft would be a real bear to control! NO?

 

I really am looking for any input on this matter! sorry if I have ruffled any feathers by starting this thread at all! I just feel that this is the best Sim that has come out in a long time for Helis And I Love it! But I also feel that if we are not totaly, and maybe brutally honest with our feedback to the ED Team it will never be the GREATEST SIM EVER MADE! Maybe I'm wrong in that too! I don't Know!

 

Sincerely: Oldflyer2

 

P.S. one member asked how long I have been flying sims I think! Well, I am 54 years old and have been flying Sims before they had good joysticks. so please don't get the idea I don't have flying skills.

Flight Trim Example1.trk

[mvsgas]

Hey Folks

 

First I would like to thank the member Zembla for the tip on the folder permissions! That is exactly what was wrong in Win 7 RC 64 Bit! Thanks

 

Now that I can get a track up on here I hope I made one that shows my concerns about the flight model! Because some of you have asked for it.

 

Well I made this at about 3:00 Am so forgive my tired flying skills but I did want to get this up here so I can get some input.

 

Now in this track I first get my aircraft trimmed out pretty tight! Then I do some silly but not outrage goofy flying around the airfield.

 

But by the time I get to the last few landings and take offs and the final resulting CRASH! What I get is that all my trims are out of wack!

 

Now my thoughts are this. That once I get my aircraft all trimmed out! why should that change except for some outside forces such as wind or turbulance that by all means should change it.

 

Other than that I would think that something on my aircraft is loose! ie linkage or hydraulcs leaking, or some sort of severe wear! Something.

 

Maybe I am wrong in this but I feel I should be able to come back to some reasonable center point on my controls. Maybe I'm all wrong in this thinking!

 

If that is the case I would think that any aircraft would be a real bear to control! NO?

 

I really am looking for any input on this matter! sorry if I have ruffled any feathers by starting this thread at all! I just feel that this is the best Sim that has come out in a long time for Helis And I Love it! But I also feel that if we are not totaly, and maybe brutally honest with our feedback to the ED Team it will never be the GREATEST SIM EVER MADE! Maybe I'm wrong in that too! I don't Know!

 

Sincerely: Oldflyer2

 

P.S. one member asked how long I have been flying sims I think! Well, I am 54 years old and have been flying Sims before they had good joysticks. so please don't get the idea I don't have flying skills.

 

 

Trim changes constantly due to speed of the aircraft, weight, environmental condition (in or out of ground effect, wind, air density, etc) If you trim the helo while having 1000Kg of fuel, if going to be out of trim by 750kg, same goes if you trim the helo while still benefiting from the effect of effective Translational lift, is going to be different that trim from a hover.

 

I will check the track

 

Some good reading:

Taken from: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/faa-h-8083-21.pdf

CYCLIC TRIM

Control can be maintained if you maintain proper

cyclic position and trim, and not allow the helicopter’s

roll and pitch rates to become too great.

 

NORMAL TAKEOFFS AND LANDINGS

When taking off or landing, perform the

maneuver smoothly and trim the cyclic so that no pitch

or roll movement rates build up, especially the roll rate.

 

Trim, in helicopters, refers to the use of the cyclic center-

ing button, if the helicopter is so equipped, to relieve all

possible cyclic pressures. Trim also refers to the use of

pedal adjustment to center the ball of the turn indicator.

Pedal trim is required during all power changes.

 

COMMON ERRORS

1. Failure to properly trim the helicopter, tending to

hold antitorque pedal pressure and opposite

cyclic. This is commonly called cross-controlling.

2. Failure to maintain desired airspeed.

3. Failure to hold proper control position to main-

tain desired ground track.

Edited July 26, 2009 by mvsgas

[ruprecht]

I'm genuinely curious Oldflyer2 - which sims that you've flown over the years do you feel gave you the best feeling of being a realistic depiction of flying a full-size helo?

 

I ask because I have over 400 hours (fullsize!) in the business end of real military helos, and I have also been flying flight sims since the original Flight Simulator, and I think DCS:BS is the closest anyone has ever come.

[159th_Viper]

Hey Folks

 

First I would like to thank the member Zembla for the tip on the folder permissions! That is exactly what was wrong in Win 7 RC 64 Bit! Thanks

 

Now that I can get a track up on here I hope I made one that shows my concerns about the flight model! Because some of you have asked for it.

 

Well I made this at about 3:00 Am so forgive my tired flying skills but I did want to get this up here so I can get some input.

 

Now in this track I first get my aircraft trimmed out pretty tight! Then I do some silly but not outrage goofy flying around the airfield.

 

But by the time I get to the last few landings and take offs and the final resulting CRASH! What I get is that all my trims are out of wack!

 

Now my thoughts are this. That once I get my aircraft all trimmed out! why should that change except for some outside forces such as wind or turbulance that by all means should change it.

 

Other than that I would think that something on my aircraft is loose! ie linkage or hydraulcs leaking, or some sort of severe wear! Something.

 

Maybe I am wrong in this but I feel I should be able to come back to some reasonable center point on my controls. Maybe I'm all wrong in this thinking!

 

If that is the case I would think that any aircraft would be a real bear to control! NO?

 

I really am looking for any input on this matter! sorry if I have ruffled any feathers by starting this thread at all! I just feel that this is the best Sim that has come out in a long time for Helis And I Love it! But I also feel that if we are not totaly, and maybe brutally honest with our feedback to the ED Team it will never be the GREATEST SIM EVER MADE! Maybe I'm wrong in that too! I don't Know!

 

Sincerely: Oldflyer2

 

P.S. one member asked how long I have been flying sims I think! Well, I am 54 years old and have been flying Sims before they had good joysticks. so please don't get the idea I don't have flying skills.

 

 

 

Spool her up, Re-Engage the Lateral Dampener and try that again.....;)

[mvsgas]

:doh::joystick::pilotfly:

Ok oldflier2 this is what I see in your track:

 

1) You turn off Lateral dampener ( H – Lateral dampener - Heading/course hold. Enables lateral autopilot channel. [H + LSHIFT], page 2-68 on manual) Need this on to properly fly KA-50

2) You broke the landing gear the first 3 second of flight. :D We have all done it, prove you just need more time on the sim.

 

3) Flying low altitude, kicking up dust, engine Dust protector not activated. ( [i + LALT] page 2-42 on manual:

The system will also prevent dust build-up in dusty conditions.

 

4) You where constantly in and out of ground effect, from what I see. I do not believe you can truly judge trim nor flight model like this. Ground effect changes how the ka-50 acts and affects the trim as well.

 

5) You where retracting your landing gear before you where even out of ground effect, you should wait for at least 20 or 30 meters.

 

6) Why are you flying with the Shkval on?

 

7) Twice your collective went down very abruptly ( this is when you broke the nose landing gear) what happened?

 

8 ) Your collective movements are very aggressive, I see you go from 5 to 9 degrees very rapidly (while attempting to land over the HAS, you went from 5 to 11 degrees) on your Rotor pitch indicator, you might want to check your settings on your throttle/joy stick.

 

I will try to see the rest of the track, but I still believe you are just suffering from inexperience.

Edited July 26, 2009 by mvsgas

[Zembla]

Haven't seen the whole thing through, but a couple of things caught my attention.

 

• You probably damaged your nosewheel because you took off with the handbrakes on. It caused some stressed braking during a couple of your landings too. Disabling the wheelbrakes is done by pressing LShift + Z if I recall right, then again, I'm on an AZERTY keyboard, so it might as well be LShift + W.
  
• I forgot where I read it, (spent the better part of half an hour looking, haven't found it, so maybe I'm imagining things), but I thought the hydraulic system only had a finite charge of pressure so to speak. Lowering the gear takes a big bite out of this charge, so if you keep lowering the gears often you'll soon notice your hydraulic pressure is getting dangerously low, and you risk not being able to control your helicopter. In fact, pilots can only lower the gear a fairly low ammount of times before getting into that twilight zone. Of course, I may misremember, but to be fair I doubt so.
  
• Another thing I noticed, and this may be bogus, but you don't really trim that often. Whenever I'm about to make a change in my attitude, or in general, whenever I maneuver, I hold down the trim button, until I've navigated into a new stable state, only then do I release the trim. Trim accounts for something like 20% of control inputs, or in other words, if you move the stick, you'll have to overcome that 20% of input the trim has authority over (I may be misunderstanding trim as well though). Anyway, to get the snappy responses, and to fly without fighting the trim, it's generally advisable to hold the trim button down while making maneuvers. What you also might want to give a shot is the Flight Director mode. Input response is very different when engaging Flight Director.
  

I genuinely believe it's just a minor misconception that keeps you from being convinced by the general awesomeness of this sim :)

 

-Z

[RvETito]

P.S. one member asked how long I have been flying sims I think! Well, I am 54 years old and have been flying Sims before they had good joysticks. so please don't get the idea I don't have flying skills.

 

With all due respect regarding your age, the only idea this member got is to find out how much time you've spent with Black Shark, not with flight sims in general.

 

I'll have a look at your track, evaluate it and post my observations of your flight.

[Oldflyer2]

Hey Folks! LOL

 

Well Well Well! We sure have a few feathers ruffled here don't we!...LOL

 

Ok! First Thing. I fricken LOVE THIS SIM! Not the point here at all!

 

Two! It is the closest thing to real Since Janes! or any other simm And I might add! In a whole new League! I believe I have stated that also before! That is not my Point nor my Question!

 

I want to ask just this one Question! IF After having set the trim and no other outside force has changed such as the fuel or wind! because in that trk niether changed enough! should the center point of my trim setting change? the point I have set! Not wether it should be changed! but should it change! all on it's own?

 

Because in that trk I have put up there, barring all the bullshit fooling around! I trimmed only once in the very beginning.

 

What I want to know is this! on the last takeoff before the crash! my trim had changed! Why? I did not change it.

 

Sorry for sounding so negitive about this sim! I am not at all. I just want feedback on this symptom. As you can see the heli turns hard right & goes into a pretty hard foward flight trim!

 

And what is the business end of a helo? If your a real pilot just say so! I can respect that!

 

P.S. I know I broke the nose gear! it was an accident! I was bit tried.

 

Good point about the dust collectors! I guess I was lucky I did not blow up the engines. I must have sucked up enough dust to start a rock quarry!...LOL

[Panzertard]

OldFlyer - It's not a "trim" in a traditional sense. It's an "attitude stabilizer", so when you use the 3 stabilizer channels (not trim) - which means you want to do the following when flying:

- You're Flying along.

- Determine to change attitude

- Hold "trim" button (my pinky finger on the joystick).

- Commence attitude change

- Manually come to an attitude "arrest".

- Release "trim".

 

The baby will now follow that path, in all 3 axis. External forces may nudge it a bit here and there as you notice, but it's "rock stable" if you use such a method when you fly. :)

 

EDIT: Aditionally - when you move your stick to change attitude without holding the trim, the "trim" will try to fight you back and put you back on the "Programmed attitude".

Holding the "trim" tells the system "standby, attitude change coming - do not fight the inputs right now".

When you release it, it's you telling the system "new attitude ready, here's the parameters".

Edited July 26, 2009 by Panzertard

[RvETito]

Watched it. Few things:

 

- why the heck you turn off autopulot's heading channel (HEADING HOLD)? No wonder the helicopter drifts left-right. Try with pitch, bank, yaw channels engaged and you'll see the difference. ANY heavy helicopter has at least 3-channel autopilot whose primary function is damping and stabilization around all the 3 axis. They all become very hard to fly when this system is inoperative because unlike airplanes helicopters have much worse selfdamping. Hint- have a look in the manual more carefuly. If I 'd had to attest you in this flight I'd fail you ;)

 

- dig this forum deeper about the trim, you'll find tons of info. I don't wanna repat myself countless times, however here's what u gotta understand first- this is a force trim system, it doesn't generate any control input. It only cancels the artificial feel on the cyclic and the pedals so the pilot doesn't have to fight those forces all the time and get tired quickly. During maneuvering trim is used very intense- once every 2-3 sec. In steady flight I fly hands free in BS and have seen the same IRL though not on Ka-50 (but on Ka-32 which shares many common systems). Both the real thing and my Ka-50 in BS fly straight like hot knife through melting butter.

 

- about the mechanic having loosen something on the controls- as a maintenance engineer I might feel ofended of someone having such an attitude toward a coworker ;) But just because I read it here and after watching your track it make me smile. Get serious ;)

 

So relax, it's a false alarm.

[GGTharos]

Hey Folks! LOL

 

Well Well Well! We sure have a few feathers ruffled here don't we!...LOL

 

No, we do not. We do have a lot of amusement though.

 

Some guy came in saying that the flight dynamics are all wrong, demonstrating in the process that he had no idea what he's talking about ;)

[nemises]

Hey Folks! LOL

 

Well Well Well! We sure have a few feathers ruffled here don't we!...LOL

 

 

hehe...don't mistake ruffled feathers for ardent nerd passion ;)

Your inputs an opinions are valid and valued here mate, and it has sparked an intersting discusion (if a little 1 sided!).

 

I have flown with (in the sim) plenty of folk who had real trouble coming to grips with the control system..it's very differnt for those of us (my self included) with very little real world heli flying experience.

However, I'm sure by now you've (hopefully) been convinced that it is VERY unlikely to be an "issue" with the flight dynamics, and rather a mistake of "hmm...I thought it would work like this rather than that" , much like we all went through when first learning to fly this monster...

[159th_Viper]

......much like we all went through when first learning to fly this monster...

 

QFT!

 

That first week/month or so was akin to Wrestlin' an Angry Blond on a Boxing Day Sale - You are ALWAYS going to lose!

 

Take solace in the fact that is nothing that Flight Hours in the Kamov will not cure......;)

[EvilBivol-1]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=569223&postcount=27

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=572028&postcount=34

[JimMack]

Hi Oldflyer2

I'm 12 years your senior!

If you have not done so, do download Frazer Demo: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php?end_pos=133&scr=products&lang=en

 

Watch what Frazer is doing in the cockpit view, and how the Ka-50 is reacting. You may find it helpful.

[SUBS17]

Watched it. Few things:

 

- why the heck you turn off autopulot's heading channel (HEADING HOLD)? No wonder the helicopter drifts left-right. Try with pitch, bank, yaw channels engaged and you'll see the difference. ANY heavy helicopter has at least 3-channel autopilot whose primary function is damping and stabilization around all the 3 axis. They all become very hard to fly when this system is inoperative because unlike airplanes helicopters have much worse selfdamping. Hint- have a look in the manual more carefuly. If I 'd had to attest you in this flight I'd fail you ;)

 

- dig this forum deeper about the trim, you'll find tons of info. I don't wanna repat myself countless times, however here's what u gotta understand first- this is a force trim system, it doesn't generate any control input. It only cancels the artificial feel on the cyclic and the pedals so the pilot doesn't have to fight those forces all the time and get tired quickly. During maneuvering trim is used very intense- once every 2-3 sec. In steady flight I fly hands free in BS and have seen the same IRL though not on Ka-50 (but on Ka-32 which shares many common systems). Both the real thing and my Ka-50 in BS fly straight like hot knife through melting butter.

 

- about the mechanic having loosen something on the controls- as a maintenance engineer I might feel ofended of someone having such an attitude toward a coworker ;) But just because I read it here and after watching your track it make me smile. Get serious ;)

 

So relax, it's a false alarm.

 

Don't forget we are still waiting for the patch which is supposed to fix some of the bugs in the autopilot eg yaw and also the trim.:music_whistling:

[SUBS17]

;721367

- make sure you are not heading for a mountain or loosing alititude (get the VSI on 0 as well with collective), and go make a cup of tea....

 

LMAO maybe in arcade mode but I use it in full sim mode and that will not work if you fly the mission where your Farp gets attacked at night.:doh:

[Inseckt]

This thread is full of good posts about the philosophy of controlling a helicopter, but any newcomer should anyhow take the time to read the long but intresting threads about trim and operation of the autopilot (with and without FD). I think you'll find them among the stickeys. Here you will find plenty good posts wich will elaborate a bit more to the QA provided by EB...

 

But most importantly: don't get discouraged, we have all been through that horrific learning curve of DCS:BS, it will all suddenly make sense....

[Oldflyer2]

Hello!

 

This will be my fianl post to this thread!

 

One thing I've learned is that when people start taking personnal offence to comments about imaginary people in a "GAME" as a reference to real life! It's time to leave it alone!

 

I must say this though! That's Like way out there! Whew! I think some should take a break from the sim world! Wholly crap!

 

It has been a good thread though! from some! I'm glad I could restrain myself from the personnal comments and attacks!

 

Sincerley: Oldflyer2

 

P.S. Have a great time with the Sim! can't wait for the patch! Hope it fixes alot of the bugs! Great Sim for sure!

[ruprecht]

What a shame mate, I thought that after all the help you received in this thread you were well on your way to learning to fly DCS.

[SUBS17]

My own thoughts on the FM its actually quite good especially when you compare it to other sims that are out there such as the EH101 in FSx and also the R22. I find it quite different to FSXs FM especially when hovering next to the side of a hill or mountain. I can just imagine what will happen if they put sling loads in this BTW can the KA50 do that as I notice there is a button there for sling loads?

[Frazer]

Hello!

 

This will be my fianl post to this thread!

 

One thing I've learned is that when people start taking personnal offence to comments about imaginary people in a "GAME" as a reference to real life! It's time to leave it alone!

 

I must say this though! That's Like way out there! Whew! I think some should take a break from the sim world! Wholly crap!

 

It has been a good thread though! from some! I'm glad I could restrain myself from the personnal comments and attacks!

 

Sincerley: Oldflyer2

 

P.S. Have a great time with the Sim! can't wait for the patch! Hope it fixes alot of the bugs! Great Sim for sure!

 

What bugs? :D

[EvilBivol-1]

Don't forget we are still waiting for the patch which is supposed to fix some of the bugs in the autopilot eg yaw and also the trim.

I don't believe there are any bugs with the AP or the trim system. You are probably thinking of the change to the Heading channel introduced in 1.0.1, where the AP will hold your turn rate instead of your heading when the rate is greater than 3 deg/sec. If so, this was not a bug, but an update to the documentation provided to ED after release. The original design was accurate to the best information they had at the time.

 

The patch also introduces an alternate trimming implementation for non-FF sticks, but this will be an optional feature and not a bug fix.

[ZaltysZ]

One thing I've learned is that when people tart taking personnal offence to comments about imaginary people in a "GAME" as a reference to real life! It's time to leave it alone!

 

It is called solidarity. :lol:

 

I think some should take a break from the sim world! Wholly crap!

 

Nah, I think someone must understand that not everything what people say must be taken literally (especially when sentences are accompanied by smiles). People here are not kids, they like to talk complex stuff (or simple things in complex way) :smilewink:

 

As some already have said, you need to read other threads about trim and stabilization system. It is not so simple. I know a lots of people who said: "this AP is buggy; Ka-50 is nonsense; game controls are bad; I hate helicopters". They stopped to say so after they learned the systems and correct flying technique. People go wrong way mostly because of wrong attitude: a) trim is only for cruise b)AP and stabilization is only for girls; so they pay little attention to them and this is bad. Ka-50 is not fixed wing aircraft, you need to trim it constantly (after every maneuver) and disabling AP (stabilization) is only allowed in emergency. I advice you to read everything, then check if you understand everything (ask people if not), then try flying and making conclusions.